Stage 16: Ponte Di Legno-Val Martello/Martelltal (139 km)

[Ruby United]

Or maybe they thought it was there to help them down/to show the path. Nothing wrong with that. If they didn't hear about the neutralization, then you can't expect them to figure out what the red flag means.

Once again, I'm pretty sure the red flag just means 'be careful it's a dangerous route' and not ' The race is neutralized'. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Knutsen]

“There was never any confusion. None,” Savio said. “They said a motorcycle would indicate if there was dangers on the descent with a red flag, but never, never, was there a mention of neutralizing the descent.”

What does he know!? Probably a 0 poster in CN race threads.

 

[Jagartrott]

What does he know!? Probably a 0 poster in CN race threads.

And what does this guy know anyway?
If you're deciding to sent riders up and down in these conditions, make sure you are absolutely clear.

Michael Rogers ✔ @mickrogers

Today's communication mess up is yet another demonstration why road cycling needs clear rules regarding extreme weather conditions.

 

[christopherrowe]

Cadel Evans says he was cramping on the last descent and doesn't mention anything about neutralization on the BMC website, =2014&tx_ttnews[month]=05&tx_ttnews[day]=27&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=2739&cHash=d476bb4b093484e2e280343b81488fb7]here.

The only mention of a "red flag" I can find in the UCI official road regulations has to do with media cars, so I suppose what it means to riders depends on organizational and individual race rules.

The rules about neutralization in general are at 2.2.029 under "Race Incidents" and are pretty broad. The only thing of interest, really, is that having taken the decision to neutralize any part of the race, the director is required to first to obtain the permission of the commissaires' panel and then inform the time keepers. I actually don't see anything explicit in the rules requiring them to inform the team managers or even the racers that such a decision has been taken!

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

So after all the fuss about a non issue, and Savio confirming, we can safely say that Quintana, Rolland and Hesjedal deserve everything with that epic ride...

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Once again, I'm pretty sure the red flag just means 'be careful it's a dangerous route' and not ' The race is neutralized'. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Consider difference in interpretation while racing. We are talking people on the limit, your DS gives you some information (could be different wording depending on the team) and then how does the individual rider understand the information (lingo issues etc)?

I can easily see mixed results.

But hey, I liked the stage too much to bother further.

 

[RedheadDane]

I actually don't see anything explicit in the rules requiring them to inform the team managers or even the racers that such a decision has been taken!

In fact, if none of the riders/DSs had heard about the neutralisation, then we'd have avoided this mess.

 

[LaFlorecita]

So after all the fuss about a non issue, and Savio confirming, we can safely say that Quintana, Rolland and Hesjedal deserve everything with that epic ride...

It is not a non issue, there are still a lot of riders who thought the descent was neutralized and decided to take it easy.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

ha, thanks

This is what RCS got to say in the Gazzetta:
Mi dispiace che ci sia stato un equivoco. Ma nessuno ha mai parlato di neutralizzazione. Per proteggere i corridori, in condizioni di scarsa visibilità abbiamo pensato di piazzare delle moto che potessero segnalare la traiettoria". Poi aggiunge: "Certo che se avessi un corridore in maglia rosa prima di prendere qualsiasi decisione ci penso due volte".

Or with google translate:
I'm sorry that there has been a misunderstanding. But no one has ever spoken of neutralization. To protect the riders, in conditions of poor visibility we decided to put the bikes that could signal the trajectory. "Then he adds:" Of course if I had a runner in the pink jersey before taking any decision think twice. "

Simply not true. A means of communication under the direct control of the organisation, accessible to all team managers, clearly stated in both Italian and English, before the descent started, that it was to be neutralised. That is an indisputable matter of record.

I don't want to be interested in the remainder of a race that is run so incompetently, and which is now hallmarked with injustice. But its the Giro (and I have a game to run) so I will.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Simply not true. A means of communication under the direct control of the organisation, accessible to all team managers, clearly stated in both Italian and English, before the descent started, that it was to be neutralised. That is an indisputable matter of record.

I don't want to be interested in the remainder of a race that is run so incompetently, and which is now hallmarked with injustice. But its the Giro (and I have a game to run) so I will.

It was!!?? can you please post a link or confirmation?

 

[The Hitch]

So did uran or Quintana speak on the controversy?

 

[Pentacycle]

It is not a non issue, there are still a lot of riders who thought the descent was neutralized and decided to take it easy.

They probably saw the whole peloton including the red-flag-motor racing away from them. It's never smart to take things like a neutralisation for granted.

 

[Eclipse]

So did uran or Quintana speak on the controversy?

Quintana did:

“I don’t understand why there is a polemic,” Quintana said. “I never received an order from the organization or my team about a neutralization. And we made up the decisive difference on the climb, not on the descent.”

Don't know whether Uran commented yet or not. Pozzo was in the same group as Uran on the descent and said there was no neutralisation and he went down as fast as he could.

 

[christopherrowe]

It was!!?? can you please post a link or confirmation?

The VeloNews report by Andrew Hood on today's stage reads in part:

As Dario Cataldo (Sky) neared the “Cima Coppi” of the Giro’s highest point at 2,758m with 69km to go, the Giro’s official Twitter account posted the following message: “Stelvio descent neutralized due to snow.”

Several minutes later, the message was erased, and replaced with an apology: “Wrong communication: no neutralization for the descent from the Passo dello Stelvio. Sorry for the wrong information. #giro”

I personally only saw the second message, in both English and Italian. The length of time represented by those "several minutes" is of course of interest.

 

[Netserk]

So did uran or Quintana speak on the controversy?

Quintana said he didn't hear anything and just followed Rolland.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

But hey, I liked the stage too much to bother further.

Same here...

It was!!?? can you please post a link or confirmation?

May he means the twitter thing? But since when does twitter/internet have anything to do with actual road racing...
So for me it´s still a non issue as long as some DS comes out and says the opposite of Savio.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

So did uran or Quintana speak on the controversy?

Says he did not hear about any possibility of any neutralization.. and this too was he said "Dans la descente du Stelvio, les Europcar et Hesjedal ont commencé à accélérer. Avec Izagirre, on a pris leurs roues"

 

[Jagartrott]

Organisation is lying or are some teams?

Kelderman shines in tough Giro queen stage

Wilco Kelderman managed fourth place today in the epic 16th stage of the Giro d’Italia. After taming the snowy Gavia and Stelvio passes, only three riders placed higher than the Belkin Pro Cycling TEAM’s Dutchman on the final climb up through Val Martello. Nairo Quintana (Movistar) won the stage and took the race leader’s pink jersey.

On the final climb, Kelderman was part of a group including Rigoberto Urán and Cadel Evans, the two riders leading the race at the beginning of the day. In the final two kilometres, the 23-year-old attacked in order to reduce the gap to the leading group with Quintana, Ryder Hesjedal and Pierre Rolland.

“The final climb suited me really well, and after a number of attacks by others, I felt that I was one of the strongest in our group. I accelerated and distanced the rest easily. Then I just kept going until the line.”

‘Hands like lumps’
The Gavia and Stelvio passes created two major obstacles due not only to their difficulty, but also due to the weather. Snow and freezing temperatures plagued the riders.

“It was a very special day,” said Kelderman. “I’m happy you don’t often experience days like this. The climb of the Gavia was not too bad, but during the descent, it started too snow very heavily. It was terribly cold and my hands felt like lumps. It was dangerous, as well, because I could no longer see through my glasses.

“While climbing the Stelvio, I warmed up again. At the top, I took my time to put on a raincoat as the jury had announced that the downhill would be neutralised. When I made my way back to the main group, however, Quintana, Hesjedal and Rolland were gone. Looking back on that, it’s a bit unfair because I wouldn’t have stopped if I hadn’t heard about the neutralisation. Rolland is now ahead of me in the overall. Normally, I think I could have followed him.”

Small differences
Kelderman now sits eighth overall. The classification differences are small, however. The gap between Evans (third) and Hesjedal (ninth) is only 55 seconds.

“With a little bit of luck you can move up quickly,” Kelderman said. “But everything is still possible. A top ten remains my main goal.”

Maassen: ‘Horrible’
Sports Director Frans Maassen was in his car during the stage and witnessed first-hand how much the riders were suffering.
"Of course, Wilco did a fantastic job, but today was no joke. It was irresponsible, horrible. I saw riders cry and some of them were even suffering from hypothermia. No, it was no fun at all. It was a bizarre day.

“The organisation told the sports directors that the descent of the Stelvio would be neutralised, but now they’re claiming that the message was only meant to warn us of the descent.

“All of our men survived today, but this stage should’ve never taken place. It’s too bad that the teams don’t come together, be unambiguous and make a statement.”

 

[Eclipse]

Nobody involved in the race should be using the Giro twitter for the latest news on race status.

It's almost certainly handled by someone working on the media side of things for them rather than someone directly involved in any decision making.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

The rules about neutralization in general are at 2.2.029 under "Race Incidents" and are pretty broad. The only thing of interest, really, is that having taken the decision to neutralize any part of the race, the director is required to first to obtain the permission of the commissaires' panel and then inform the time keepers. I actually don't see anything explicit in the rules requiring them to inform the team managers or even the racers that such a decision has been taken!

But if they do inform them that there is to be a neutralisation, then are they not obliged to see it through?

Is there anything explicit in the rules that only radio communication is authoritative?

 

[rhubroma]

Simply not true. A means of communication under the direct control of the organisation, accessible to all team managers, clearly stated in both Italian and English, before the descent started, that it was to be neutralised. That is an indisputable matter of record.

I don't want to be interested in the remainder of a race that is run so incompetently, and which is now hallmarked with injustice. But its the Giro (and I have a game to run) so I will.

Unfortunately the injustice comes from the Italians being masters at creating equivocation. Indeed the RAI commentary announced that there would be motorcycles placed ahead of each group as "pacers" that caused an issue over interpretation which was simply inadmissible.

Were they placed there to "neutralize" the course, or were they simply marks to aid the riders in negotiating the curves, with the implication that they would not be riding full on?

The problem of course was that, in its effort to "help" the perilous situation, the race leadership wasn't able to articulate their intention unequivocally and that left no margin for interpretation. In the end each team interpreted for themselves what was the initiative was supposed to mean. Never a positive leadership.

This is typically Italian I hate to say and thus the confusion and chaos.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

here is the official raceradio record courtesy of cyclingpro blog.

http://www.cycling.it/oggetti/RADIOCORSSASCAM_0034S12_01.mp3

 

[Jagartrott]

Never mind, already posted above.
They literally say that motorbikes will be positioned ahead of the groups to avoid attacks.

 

[christopherrowe]

While the rules don't mention anything about Twitter or other means of communication, it seems like they should probably be modified to take them into account given how much they're used by both teams and organizers.

But for now, the official UCI regulations only mention "Radio-tour," with the most germane rule being found at 2.2.21:

The organizer shall provide a radio-tour information service from the car of the president of the commissaires' panel. He shall require all vehicles to be equipped with a receiver so that they can continually pick up radio-tour.

So, I imagine that nothing happened which breaks the rules as written. Whether or not something "wrong" occurred—whether an "unwritten" rule was broken—is, like so much else about this sport, a matter of opinion.

 

[Flamin]

Organisation is lying or are some teams?

Kelderman shines in tough Giro queen stage

Wilco Kelderman managed fourth place today in the epic 16th stage of the Giro d’Italia. After taming the snowy Gavia and Stelvio passes, only three riders placed higher than the Belkin Pro Cycling TEAM’s Dutchman on the final climb up through Val Martello. Nairo Quintana (Movistar) won the stage and took the race leader’s pink jersey.

On the final climb, Kelderman was part of a group including Rigoberto Urán and Cadel Evans, the two riders leading the race at the beginning of the day. In the final two kilometres, the 23-year-old attacked in order to reduce the gap to the leading group with Quintana, Ryder Hesjedal and Pierre Rolland.

“The final climb suited me really well, and after a number of attacks by others, I felt that I was one of the strongest in our group. I accelerated and distanced the rest easily. Then I just kept going until the line.”

‘Hands like lumps’
The Gavia and Stelvio passes created two major obstacles due not only to their difficulty, but also due to the weather. Snow and freezing temperatures plagued the riders.

“It was a very special day,” said Kelderman. “I’m happy you don’t often experience days like this. The climb of the Gavia was not too bad, but during the descent, it started too snow very heavily. It was terribly cold and my hands felt like lumps. It was dangerous, as well, because I could no longer see through my glasses.

“While climbing the Stelvio, I warmed up again. At the top, I took my time to put on a raincoat as the jury had announced that the downhill would be neutralised. When I made my way back to the main group, however, Quintana, Hesjedal and Rolland were gone. Looking back on that, it’s a bit unfair because I wouldn’t have stopped if I hadn’t heard about the neutralisation. Rolland is now ahead of me in the overall. Normally, I think I could have followed him.”

Small differences
Kelderman now sits eighth overall. The classification differences are small, however. The gap between Evans (third) and Hesjedal (ninth) is only 55 seconds.

“With a little bit of luck you can move up quickly,” Kelderman said. “But everything is still possible. A top ten remains my main goal.”

Maassen: ‘Horrible’
Sports Director Frans Maassen was in his car during the stage and witnessed first-hand how much the riders were suffering.
"Of course, Wilco did a fantastic job, but today was no joke. It was irresponsible, horrible. I saw riders cry and some of them were even suffering from hypothermia. No, it was no fun at all. It was a bizarre day.

“The organisation told the sports directors that the descent of the Stelvio would be neutralised, but now they’re claiming that the message was only meant to warn us of the descent.

“All of our men survived today, but this stage should’ve never taken place. It’s too bad that the teams don’t come together, be unambiguous and make a statement.”

Lefevre says they thought the descent was neutralized too by the time they knew Quintana was gone, he already had a 2 minutes advantage.