Stage 8: Station des Rousses - Morzine-Avoriaz 189km

[bobs nob]

Sergio Ramos hair certainly fits the look typically associated with Jesus. There is even a Jesus in the peloton. Though I crack up every time Phil and Paul pronounce his name. Parents might have been better to simply name him Zeus.

I work with a guy named Jesus. But his birthday is (really) december 26. So we know he isn't the real one.

 

[reubenr]

I'll actually respond to this seriously. The "attack" on Contador wasn't meant to be a personal attack, as it did come across. At the time, Phil didn't believe that he would win the tour against Armstrong because he didn't have the intelligence on the bike. It was harsh, but I get what he was trying to say because I'm not sitting there looking for reasons to hate on the guy. He was implying that in his eyes, Contador was a bit like a much more talented Jose Maria Jimenez (RIP), a guy with all the potential in the world who didn't ever win a GT because he wouldn't race a smart race. In his mind, Contador's victories had not been against the likes of Ullrich and Basso, but against Levi and Cuddles. He was wrong, so what?

I don't remember anyone crying about it when he was just about the only journalist to pick LeMond to win the 1989 Tour when no one else would, or that he was the only journalist who picked LeMond to be able to make up that distance in the final TT. He thought Armstrong would return stronger, and yes, that Alberto wouldn't have the tactical sense to respond. He was wrong. So what? Half the people here would not have picked Armstrong to finish in the top 3 last year. He's man enough to admit when he's wrong, considering that he picked Contador to win the Tour this year, unlike Roll who picked Armstrong again.

I am taking your posts quite seriously and I think they are great, else wise I would just move on to something more interesting, but in this case I think you are giving the "nice guy" too much credit. If he had said "intelligience on the bike" that would have been one thing, but it was a flat out reference to capacity and not a reference to behavior. The entire Versus crew last year was so pro Armstrong that they all had a brown ring around their necks. It still shows, but, who knows, some one will tell that they need to say something different now. During Stage 3 Liggett and Sherwin had things so fouled up that one had no clew as to where any one was and even when Armstrong was out of it, they still had him in it. I can not count the # of times that they had him coming back today, while Armstrong was just losing slower at the moment. Obviously, this is not a horse race where one can see them running side by side, but what bothers me about Liggett and Sherwin is that they counter their own intelligient statements with such idiotic transmissions that are so ingratiating and filled with hyperbole that it makes one wonder if they are watching the race. I followed the 89 Tour in the NYT, so I can't say anything about Liggett, but although I take for face value that you know what you are talking about, my recollection is somewhat different, which is a lot of people thought that Lemond could make up the time and that it was a mistake to have a time trial on the last day. So they don't do that anymore. I do not want to appear argumentative but I have to listen to Liggett, too, and I think him and Sherwin could do much better than they are doing. They are not the show, like so much of the media believe themselves to be.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Count me in as another cycling fan extremely disappointed at Frank Schleck's crash, but I sense that some of the other posters who pointed out that this may work to Andy's benefit may have been right. I certainly thought it would work to Andy's detriment.

 

[hrotha]

Samuel Sánchez rode like an amateur. Doing all the work when Andy is the big GC contender? Save yourself for the sprint, man. He's not the most tactically bright rider in the bunch.

Also, I thought Contador didn't ride too smart either. I guess he wanted the stage win, but he had absolutely no need to go after someone like Van den Broeck. About Andy, he was strong and that'll make the Tour more interesting, but he'll wish he had attacked sooner. He could have gained some real time on Contador. Next time he might not manage to drop him. Too conservative race by Andy.

And then we have Sky pulling, too. Hell, even Valls sprinted to get 5th in a climb that only awarded points to the first 4. Pretty abysmal tactics by almost everyone involved, I'd say.

Menchov being the exception*, of course. There he is, 5th in the GC, and nobody even noticed him. When he's in form he can TT with the best GC contenders, too.

*also Sastre

 

[bobs nob]

Count me in as another cycling fan extremely disappointed at Frank Schleck's crash, but I sense that some of the other posters who pointed out that this may work to Andy's benefit may have been right. I certainly thought it would work to Andy's detriment.

I am still sticking with detriment.

 

[Cobblestones]

Count me in as another cycling fan extremely disappointed at Frank Schleck's crash, but I sense that some of the other posters who pointed out that this may work to Andy's benefit may have been right. I certainly thought it would work to Andy's detriment.

Maybe with Frank there, he or Andy might have tested the Astana train a little bit earlier on the slopes? Who knows what might have come out of it.

 

[redtreviso]

They've always done this.. In 85 it was Alexi Grewal,,(spits on camera)In 87 there was no LeMond to taylor the american coverage of the tour so they focused on Andy Hampsten and 7-11 ..."will this be Andy's year?" and Davis Phinney...More of the same in 88.. Actually in 89 they were slow to get on the LeMond bandwagon.. In 92 93 John Tomac was in the tour.."Will he be able to take the tour by storm!!! like he does in moutain biking!!!" uhh no.. Then Lance's first...They had to decide how much tv time to devote to someone getting into the broom wagon.. Fact is Americans are barely interested in the tour or bike racing in general.. If it was just about some non english speaking euro we would never see the tour on tv. Bob and Phil would be unknown.

 

[ulrikmm]

Apparantly, I am lucky to see the Tour de France in Denmark. We have 2 channels showing all footage live. On one channel (TV2), the speakers include maillot jaune owner, Classic, Giro and Tour de France stage winner Rolf Sørensen and the movie director Jørgen Leth, famous for the cycling documentary A Sunday in Hell. The other is Eurosport, with Leif Mortensen (lieutenant for Ocana, amateur world champion, 6th in le Tour GC).

Generally, these speakers do well, however, they are still under the spell from the Armstrong spin, and refuse to take doping allegations into discussion. Actually, Leth, a real provocateur, praises the use of doping saying that this is a necessary part of le Tour: it is like real life: nothing is clean.

 

[Desperate Moments]

To think, before the start, I feared that a certain Mr. Lance Armstrong would spoil my enjoyment of the Tour--as he did last year. Today's stage was so much fun on so many levels, I'm positively giddy. Vive le Tour!!!

 

[Elagabalus]

If it was just about some non english speaking euro we would never see the tour on tv.

You mean like the 1998 Tour (covered each day by OLN) when Pantani won?

 

[richwagmn]

To think, before the start, I feared that a certain Mr. Lance Armstrong would spoil my enjoyment of the Tour--as he did last year. Today's stage was so much fun on so many levels, I'm positively giddy. Vive le Tour!!!

Bah. I don't like Armstrong. But to be giddy over a guy essentially crashing out... seems like sore winner syndrome.

I wanted someone to beat him straight up one more time.

That said, if LA truly works for Levi (I'll believe it when I see it), he'll probably gain back some lost respect.

 

[bobs nob]

Bah. I don't like Armstrong. But to be giddy over a guy essentially crashing out... seems like sore winner syndrome.

I wanted someone to beat him straight up one more time.

That said, if LA truly works for Levi (I'll believe it when I see it), he'll probably gain back some lost respect.

giddy over Karma

 

[ManInFull]

Maybe with Frank there, he or Andy might have tested the Astana train a little bit earlier on the slopes? Who knows what might have come out of it.

I agree. I kept expecting AC to attack. He didn't need to win enough time to get the jersey, but I wanted him to take some time from AS and Cuddles. I'm not sure how he has responded to questions after the race, but I don't think he had the legs and was hoping that everyone would ride to the line together. If AS had attacked earlier, maybe he would have gotten more time. How much time does he need to feel comfortable going into that long, flat TT? If I'm AC, I'm very concerned about AS and Cuddles.

 

[Thee_chisa]

Bah. I don't like Armstrong. But to be giddy over a guy essentially crashing out... seems like sore winner syndrome.

I wanted someone to beat him straight up one more time.

That said, if LA truly works for Levi (I'll believe it when I see it), he'll probably gain back some lost respect.

well, he didn't crash out, he was ridden out of the race. i wish he hadn't crashed at all and then the lance boys on here could then grasp that there was never any chance of him winning the tour and this had merely been propagated by american sports stations.

even if he hadn't gone down, he still would have lost big time today.

 

[Le breton]

when it’s hot one way to look at a rider’s natural ability to cool down (to dump unused energy/heat) would be to understand their gross efficiency. there are several threads in the clinic on the subject.
say two riders are climbing side by side and generate the same watt per kilogramme. rider A efficiency is 22% and rider B efficiency is 24%.

rider A has to dump 78% of his metabolic heat into a 35 C environment and rider B has to dump 76%.

i’m not making any conclusions but wouldn‘t, intuitively speaking, rider B climbing job seem easier since he has to shed less heat relatively speaking ?

I have not seen any thread tackling the subject of rider's efficiency in a hot atmosphere. Always done in labs.

In the open air, without cloud cover, a cyclist producing say 380 watts of mechanical power, will have to get rid of far more than the 1272 watts of heat ( corresponding to 23% efficiency) as he will also be receiving/absorbing a few hundreds watts of direct heat from the sun.

Ability to do well in hot/dry or hot/humid environments is not well documented in research papers.

 

[Steel4Ever]

giddy over Karma

NO! NO! NO!

You CANNOT mention 'crash' and 'karma' in the same arena!

I started a thread concerning karma and Ricco's recent crash -- it got closed down and issued a warning.

Just a friendly reminder lest you get banned.

 

[reubenr]

well, he didn't crash out, he was ridden out of the race. i wish he hadn't crashed at all and then the lance boys on here could then grasp that there was never any chance of him winning the tour and this had merely been propagated by american sports stations.

even if he hadn't gone down, he still would have lost big time today.

"This is the steepest part of the climb, and it gets steeper later on!" - Phil Liggett

Brilliant!

 

[Angliru]

Samuel Sánchez rode like an amateur. Doing all the work when Andy is the big GC contender? Save yourself for the sprint, man. He's not the most tactically bright rider in the bunch.

Also, I thought Contador didn't ride too smart either. I guess he wanted the stage win, but he had absolutely no need to go after someone like Van den Broeck. About Andy, he was strong and that'll make the Tour more interesting, but he'll wish he had attacked sooner. He could have gained some real time on Contador. Next time he might not manage to drop him. Too conservative race by Andy.

And then we have Sky pulling, too. Hell, even Valls sprinted to get 5th in a climb that only awarded points to the first 4. Pretty abysmal tactics by almost everyone involved, I'd say.

Menchov being the exception*, of course. There he is, 5th in the GC, and nobody even noticed him. When he's in form he can TT with the best GC contenders, too.

*also Sastre

A. Schleck like everyone else were likely waiting for the usual Contador afterburners to kick in and didn't want to waste their efforts too soon. I believe before this stage they all feared Contador, and rightly so. They were all racing for 2nd until Contador showed he wasn't feeling it today. Van Den Broeck simply doesn't know any better but sometimes that can be a good thing. Gesink's natural inclination is to attack. Once they reached 2 km's everyone began to get edgy.

Samu would have won the stage if he hadn't cramped up at the end. His supposed lead out of Schleck was due to Schleck's rep as a not very good sprinter. Under normal circumstances Samu would have smoked Schleck. Even Andy appeared surprised when Samu pulled up just before the line.

 

[bobs nob]

I agree. I kept expecting AC to attack. He didn't need to win enough time to get the jersey, but I wanted him to take some time from AS and Cuddles. I'm not sure how he has responded to questions after the race, but I don't think he had the legs and was hoping that everyone would ride to the line together. If AS had attacked earlier, maybe he would have gotten more time. How much time does he need to feel comfortable going into that long, flat TT? If I'm AC, I'm very concerned about AS and Cuddles.

I was also disappointed, expected an arcalis-like outcome. But tuesday is another day and then that long descent after the hc climb. Is it going to be to anyone's benefit to burn some matches for an advantage on Tuesday? Who will be setting tempo on tuesday? Will astana's train 'get the day off' and let BMC defend?

 

[Elagabalus]

Don't expect LA to ride for Levi just yet. He still has the "Merckx Option"* After his disastrous ride to Orcieres-Merlette in 1971, after the rest day, Merckx and his entire team attacked from the start. True, LA's team doesn't seem up for it and Merckx was only able to gain 2 minutes after being out front for 250 km so it might not be worth it. The only other option would be to hope everyone ahead of him in GC crashes out like Ocana did in 71.

*I would call it the "Landis Option" but, you know...Lance might get mad...

 

[richwagmn]

I was also disappointed, expected an arcalis-like outcome. But tuesday is another day and then that long descent after the hc climb. Is it going to be to anyone's benefit to burn some matches for an advantage on Tuesday? Who will be setting tempo on tuesday? Will astana's train 'get the day off' and let BMC defend?

Yea, I can't imagine Astana doing anything until the third stage.

I wonder where AC's top end is? Seems like he doesn't have the kick he had last year. Thinking back to Criterium International and Paris Nice, he seemed to be a step below his form last year.

Maybe he'll peak in the third week.

 

[Señor_Contador]

Yea, I can't imagine Astana doing anything until the third stage.

I wonder where AC's top end is? Seems like he doesn't have the kick he had last year. Thinking back to Criterium International and Paris Nice, he seemed to be a step below his form last year.

Maybe he'll peak in the third week.

This is a loooooong TdF. One Indurain would've described as "third-week heavy" (3ª semana pesada). Attack now and you'll pay for it when you're going up the Tourmalet.

Having said this... Andy's won this round, but it all looks as though he's got AC's number this year.

Although I am an Alberto Contador fan... I am a cycling fan first and I salute people like Andy who train their asses off during the winter so as to be a step above a year later.

Cycling needs more people like AS.

Go Andy!!!!!

 

[hrotha]

Samu would have won the stage if he hadn't cramped up at the end. His supposed lead out of Schleck was due to Schleck's rep as a not very good sprinter. Under normal circumstances Samu would have smoked Schleck. Even Andy appeared surprised when Samu pulled up just before the line.

Yes, but it was still poor tactics by him. If he pulled because Andy's slow and so he was confident he would beat him, he underestimated him, which is not good in any circumstances. Doing all the work in front evens the odds out somewhat after all. He may have got a cramp but perhaps if he had taken it a little bit easier by letting Andy do the work he would have been fine, and anyway, as I said, even if he had won that wouldn't have made his race any more tactically sound.

 

[Bennyl]

hello.

Very very long time visiter, first time poster here. with the race looking more exciting than I expected, had to register and say what a great start to the tour. Last year was abit too ho-hum with Cavendish and Astana making things way too predictable. Have to say great forum here guys. the regular contributers here are can be informative (and humorous) and i enjoy having a read every day.

yesterdays stage was great - Andy looks good and hopefully will try and challenge at every opportunity now. AC is still favourite for me, when the hills really go up, he is at his best - not at 2% where Andy attacked last night.

Congrats to Cadel. Awesome riding this year and even though I don't think he'll win, he should be very please with his year regardless of what happens from now.

From the others, well done Sastre to hang on. what a rider. he just keeps coming back and if he does find form will hopefully animate later stage.

Basso hung in there, yeah, i don't think his diesel engine will cut it by the end after the giro with Conta & Andys attacks.

Big blow for wiggans last night, and although he downplayed the loss abit, he still has to make up that time. good luck.

not disappointed to see Radioshack fall away abit. Don't think Lance would have had it in him anyway, Kloden is not the rider he was 3-5 years ago, and Levi will follow and time trial ok, but will probably lose time before the end anyway.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

hello.

Very very long time visiter, first time poster here. with the race looking more exciting than I expected, had to register and say what a great start to the tour. Last year was abit too ho-hum with Cavendish and Astana making things way too predictable. Have to say great forum here guys. the regular contributers here are can be informative (and humorous) and i enjoy having a read every day.

yesterdays stage was great - Andy looks good and hopefully will try and challenge at every opportunity now. AC is still favourite for me, when the hills really go up, he is at his best - not at 2% where Andy attacked last night.

Congrats to Cadel. Awesome riding this year and even though I don't think he'll win, he should be very please with his year regardless of what happens from now.

From the others, well done Sastre to hang on. what a rider. he just keeps coming back and if he does find form will hopefully animate later stage.

Basso hung in there, yeah, i don't think his diesel engine will cut it by the end after the giro with Conta & Andys attacks.

Big blow for wiggans last night, and although he downplayed the loss abit, he still has to make up that time. good luck.

not disappointed to see Radioshack fall away abit. Don't think Lance would have had it in him anyway, Kloden is not the rider he was 3-5 years ago, and Levi will follow and time trial ok, but will probably lose time before the end anyway.

Welcome to the nuthouse.

I still think Kloden has it in him. Consider me flabbergasted about what happened on Saturday. I'm completely confused there. I sense it was deliberate.