State of Peloton 2023

[Red Rick]

Moreno Moser said exactly this after the first 80 km of Paris Roubaix yesterday and then in the end he was like: "ok with these freaks it doesn't matter if they start fast or slow..."

That's not completely correct.

There's a Strava segment for the finale of De Ronde van Vlaanderen and Pogacar dropped like 2 minutes in the final 30km

I do too. if you read some twitter antidopers they're still going on about blood-epo and INVISIBLE motors ffs

A lot of compounds are banned not by name but by what they do in these broad umbrella terms though, so new stuff can even be banned without them being explicitly mentioned

The only novel thing I've heard about that sounded like it was some next level *** was synthetic haemoglobin powder or whatever it was.

To add some data points to your point: (Padun was doing ~6W/kg for his time of 34:53)
Pantani top time was done at 6.73W/kg (number comes from chronoswatts, no clue on accuracy, just wanted to provide a ballpark number)

Think even lowballing 34' would already be eye dropping though, 32:50 is insanity :/

Padun shocks again on Joux Plane

Col de Joux-Plane 2021:11,6 km@8,5%---34:53---average speed 19.95 km/h(Mark Padun) ---35:06---average sp...

www.climbing-records.com

Col de Joux-Plane
2021:11,6 km@8,5%---34:53---average speed 19.95 km/h(Mark Padun)
---35:06---average speed 19.83 km/h(Jack Haig)
---35:11---average speed 19.78 km/h(Thomas-Porte-Lutsenko-Lopez-I.Izagirre-Gaudu-O'Connor-Kelderman)
2016:11,6 km@8,5%---35:34---average speed 19.57 km/h(Joaquim Rodriguez)
---36:04---average speed 19.30 km/h(15 riders group)
---37:05---average speed 18.77 km/h(Nibali-I.Izagirre)
2012:11,6 km@8,5%---35:16---average speed 19.74 km/h(Nairo Quintana)
---35:35---average speed 19.56 km/h(Evans-Porte-Froome-Wiggins-Rogers-Van Den Broeck-Weening-Kiryienka-Zubeldia)
2006:11,6 km@8,5%---35:47---average speed 19.45 km/h(Carlos Sastre)
---36:39---average speed 18.99 km/h(Christophe Moreau)
---36:59---average speed 18.82 km/h(Damiano Cunego)
---37:00---average speed 18.81 km/h(Floyd Landis)
---37:33---average speed 18.54 km/h(Boogerd-F.Schleck-Pereiro-Zubeldia-Kloden)
2000:11,6 km@8,5%---34:12---average speed 20.35 km/h(Virenque-Heras)
---34:40---average speed 20.08 km/h(Jan Ullrich)
---35:15---average speed 19.74 km/h(Beloki-Herve-Escartin)
---36:24---average speed 19.12 km/h(Botero-Conti-Atienza-Armstrong-Moreau)
1997:11,6 km@8,5%---32:50---average speed 21.20 km/h(Marco Pantani)-RECORD
---33:45---average speed 20.62 km/h(Virenque-Ullrich)
---34:19---average speed 20.28 km/h(Escartin-Riis)

Is Joux-Plane even the most interesting climb in the Tour for climbing times?

I'm fairly confident 6.5 for 35 minutes or so isn't that unrealistic under ideal circumstances these days.

Marie-Blanque, Grand Colombier and the 2nd half of Col de la Loze should make for direct comparisons to 2020, when it all appeared to be starting. The latter 2 have easier stages and lead ins though, but I expect them to be much faster under good circumstances. Maybe Tourmalet east they should fly if Jumbo decides to nuke it.

For the Giro I'm really curious for Passo Giau and Tre Cime. Verbier should be safe.

Vuelta has like 4 good references, with Tourmalet, Xorret del Cati, Javalambre, and Angliru.

 

[Mayomaniac]

That's not completely correct.

There's a Strava segment for the finale of De Ronde van Vlaanderen and Pogacar dropped like 2 minutes in the final 30km

I remember last year he was also faster when he made the big selection on the penultimate Kwaremont that on the final one. Also the only one who didn't do the 2nd Carpegna ascend in Tirreno-Adriatico clearly slower than the first one last year in Tirreno-Adriatico.

 

[Red Rick]

I remember last year he was also faster when he made the big selection on the penultimate Kwaremont that on the final one. Also the only one who didn't do the 2nd Carpegna ascend in Tirreno-Adriatico clearly slower than the first one last year in Tirreno-Adriatico.

Final vs penultimate Kwaremont and 1st vs 2nd Carpegna are wildly different though.

 

[Netserk]

I do too. if you read some twitter antidopers they're still going on about blood-epo and INVISIBLE motors ffs

Do you think the strongest riders ever stopped using blood bags/blood doping?

We know it works, and we know it works well enough to allow these performances. We know it doesn't make you test positive, the only risk is an echo positive and the passport, both should be quite manageable currently.

Maybe something new is added to the mix, but it doesn't have to be. More than new substances, I'm curious how developed and deployable gene-therapy is in a doping context.

 

[pastronef]

Do you think the strongest riders ever stopped using blood bags/blood doping?

We know it works, and we know it works well enough to allow these performances. We know it doesn't make you test positive, the only risk is an echo positive and the passport, both should be quite manageable currently.

Maybe something new is added to the mix, but it doesn't have to be. More than new substances, I'm curious how developed and deployable gene-therapy is in a doping context.

I don't know if blood-epo is worth the risk. you race Paris-Nice, TDF and so on, and a French police bust is around the corner every day, and you could end-up in jail. the Bahrain police stunts show it doesn't take much to call the cops and get you a visit. I think something changed during the covid pause. it's a grey area, I'm not an expert to make assumption or guessing, but they walk the sharp edge of not yet banned / not yet found, and ketones and other new legal-edge stuff/cocktail/mix. and mind, anything that isn't on the Wada book is fine. there's a long list of supplements and stuff you can take, ventolins, cortisones, etc.
remember the list of things Campenaerts took for a TT: caffeine, paracetamol, Red Bull, sodium bicarbonate and beet juice
can you imagine the telluric wave for, say, a sponsor like Alpecin if a rider was caught for blood/epo. I think sponsors nowadays have even stricter doping-clauses

 

[Netserk]

I don't know if blood-epo is worth the risk. you race Paris-Nice, TDF and so on, and a French police bust is around the corner every day, and you could end-up in jail.

This is not 2002. What risk?! The problem is an independent doctor, like for Preidler.

Teams learn. I don't think teams have anything illegal on the bus and in their own rooms. The worst you can find is prescription drugs that won't get you a ban.

But if you really think none of the best riders use blood bags, when did they stop? Did Contador not use blood bags in his last years? Valverde?

 

[Red Rick]

Do you think the strongest riders ever stopped using blood bags/blood doping?

We know it works, and we know it works well enough to allow these performances. We know it doesn't make you test positive, the only risk is an echo positive and the passport, both should be quite manageable currently.

Maybe something new is added to the mix, but it doesn't have to be. More than new substances, I'm curious how developed and deployable gene-therapy is in a doping context.

They might still use it, but I don't think it's a very satisfying explanation for the biblical performances we're seeing across the board.

It wouldn't explain why there's this sharp increase in climbing speeds between 2019 and 2020, even pre COVID by some riders, and IMO with simple blood doping you'd expect there to be some mistakes and more accidental positives or bio passport cases being opened.

It's a simple method, access should be very wide, so I don't think if that's the main difference maker we should be seeing 6 guys win everything.

 

[Netserk]

The difference maker could be the sophistication of manipulation of the passport.

We don't know if and how the de facto regulations have changed. If the passport is reduced to only inform targeted testing, it may take some time to discover for the teams.

After Kreuziger and Froome, I think anti-doping agencies have realised that they can't afford to open such cases. Anti-doping defeated by lawfare.

 

[pastronef]

This is not 2002. What risk?! The problem is an independent doctor, like for Preidler.

Teams learn. I don't think teams have anything illegal on the bus and in their own rooms. The worst you can find is prescription drugs that won't get you a ban.

But if you really think none of the best riders use blood bags, when did they stop? Did Contador not use blood bags in his last years? Valverde?

now, I'm not up to date to the methods explained by the Postal guys but I remember you'd need a blood bad or two during a 3 week stage race. so the French police could bump into it.
and by the way it's pure guessing, we talk of blood and epo like it was a party.

ps. when and how would a manipulation of the passport work? I never thought about it nor how to do it

 

[Red Rick]

The difference maker could be the sophistication of manipulation of the passport.

We don't know if and how the de facto regulations have changed. If the passport is reduced to only inform targeted testing, it may take some time to discover for the teams.

After Kreuziger and Froome, I think anti-doping agencies have realised that they can't afford to open such cases. Anti-doping defeated by lawfare.

Still don't believe it. Unless Ineos literally figured it out during the Giro in 2020. Thomas was supposed to fly, then he crashed out, and suddenly Dennis and TgH were world class climbers only to never be so again.

 

[Nick2413]

Does anyone on here know much about gene doping? As in, what is the current consensus on the potential of it? I’ve never taken a deep dive but seems like it could be a big behind the scenes thing these days.

 

[Rob5091]

Was n't there some new super duper program wheeled out by WADA back in January?
Otherwise, I'm thinking of starting a poll on "Who will be busted in the week before the Tour?" as it's customary to be seen to be doing something.

 

[Red Rick]

Does anyone on here know much about gene doping? As in, what is the current consensus on the potential of it? I’ve never taken a deep dive but seems like it could be a big behind the scenes thing these days.

Think I'd read a lot more about the wide spread wonderse of gene therapy if it was hugely succesful for doping.

 

[Rico044]

It is crazy to me that we have not heard what the mysterious powder was from the Bahrain raid last year. If its legal, the authorities owe to Bahrain to publicly say that. If it wasn't.....then why hasn't anything been done? Its super weird....

 

[hrotha]

Personally I think it's more likely that the old methods have been refined further, rather than there being some mystery wonder drug no one has heard about

 

[noob]

It is crazy to me that we have not heard what the mysterious powder was from the Bahrain raid last year. If its legal, the authorities owe to Bahrain to publicly say that. If it wasn't.....then why hasn't anything been done? Its super weird....

I agree with this. It's a sign in itself imo.

 

[Rob5091]

This, I think, was what I referred to earlier. https://www.velonews.com/news/road/...arns-epo-and-doping-are-not-going-to-go-away/

Apparently the bio-passport can not detect microdosing and now the bio-passport will be able to detect growth hormone. From that, I would say that some naughty person has been using growth hormones. I'm shocked!

 

[macbindle]

To be honest, if anybody wins any races I think we can all take that as a sure sign that doping is alive and well.

The only way we can ever be certain we have a clean peloton is if nobody wins. Until then...

 

[zlev11]

To be honest, if anybody wins any races I think we can all take that as a sure sign that doping is alive and well.

The only way we can ever be certain we have a clean peloton is if nobody wins. Until then...

get a new bit, this one sucks

 

[pastronef]

also, using grey area or non legal methods in training could be what some athletes do. go over the top in training, train to such speed that can be repeated in racing, push your body to get used to wild racing speeds and w-kg

 

[zlev11]

rewatched the end of P-R, it's insane how fast VDP is still going in the last 5k. they have the speed on the screen and he's just rampaging at 62km/h. it's frightening. and that's after the fastest Paris-Roubaix of all time.

 

[Mayomaniac]

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/italian-rider-fabio-mazzucco-faces-four-year-ban-for-epo-positive/
Former Bardiani rider who had to step down to CT level busted for EPO, clearly another (Italian) bad apple...

 

[pastronef]

a french doctor (De Mondenard) says WADA is late about undetectable substances or substances that are not yet on the red list.
doping is a legal matter. until you don't test positive, well, there's nothing stopping you from taking or experimenting stuff.

 

[Rob5091]

Tubeless tyres are apparently the thing to make you go faster. Close down the Clinic, fire all the doctors and buy me some shares in the Tubeless Tyre Factory!

 

[Rob5091]

With all these fastest times this year, it's easy to forget that last year's Tour was also the fastest ever. It's those tubeless tyres, is n't it?