State of Peloton 2023

[Netserk]

fastest ascent of the poggio ever today

It's unfortunate that we only have Joux Plane in the Tour as benchmark.

 

[F_Cance]

85kg Ganna breaking climbing records

 

[Rackham]

85kg Ganna breaking climbing records

It was a battle of 'chaudières' as the French call them, i.e. boilers (with all the appropriate clinical insinuations).

VdP has been a bit of a joke since stage 5's ITT in the 2021 TdF, i.e. demonstrable evidence of how a rider with zero ITT training or wind tunnel preparation can score a top 5 because 'yellow jersey is a motivator' reasons. Naturally, he's done diddly squat in an ITT since.

He has massive peaks & then vanishes entirely for large parts of the season. I say those races where he gets dropped like a stone are pretty blatant examples of what MvP riding paniagua looks like. Today was the opposite end of the performance spectrum. People defend riders by saying they 'peak' at the right time. I mean lol, I think it's the how & why they're peaking which is the real differentiator.

I suppose next time he's lol dropped in a benign TdF stage or one day race, his back injury will be so bad he's almost a cripple, or smth. That's of course until it miraculously heals in time for his next crushing monument win.

 

[Reemster]

It was a battle of 'chaudières' as the French call them, i.e. boilers (with all the appropriate clinical insinuations).

VdP has been a bit of a joke since stage 5's ITT in the 2021 TdF, i.e. demonstrable evidence of how a rider with zero ITT training or wind tunnel preparation can score a top 5 because 'yellow jersey is a motivator' reasons. Naturally, he's done diddly squat in an ITT since.

He has massive peaks & then vanishes entirely for large parts of the season. I say those races where he gets dropped like a stone are pretty blatant examples of what MvP riding paniagua looks like. Today was the opposite end of the performance spectrum. People defend riders by saying they 'peak' at the right time. I mean lol, I think it's the how & why they're peaking which is the real differentiator.

I suppose next time he's lol dropped in a benign TdF stage or one day race, his back injury will be so bad he's almost a cripple, or smth. That's of course until it miraculously heals in time for his next crushing monument win.

Lmao, so much *** I don't know where to begin...

 

[Rackham]

Lmao, so much *** I don't know where to begin...

Type away, who cares. I only posted my fleeting informal opinion on the "state of the peloton" with regards to this particular Milan-San Remo.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

It was a battle of 'chaudières' as the French call them, i.e. boilers (with all the appropriate clinical insinuations).

Too good!

 

[zlev11]

Lmao, so much *** I don't know where to begin...

how about you begin. how can a clean rider go faster than Laurent Jalabert in 1995, one of the most doped riders with the highest octane drugs ever in the history of the sport?

 

[Reemster]

Type away, who cares. I only posted my fleeting informal opinion on the "state of the peloton" with regards to this particular Milan-San Remo.

"Naturally, he's done diddly squat in an ITT since."

Uhm... He's ridden 4 itt's since then -> 2nd and 3rd in the 2022 Giro, 5th in the 2022 Tour and 15th in this year's Tirreno

"He has massive peaks & then vanishes entirely for large parts of the season."

When does he vanish for large parts of the season? You know he partakes in 3 disciplines right? He's had one bad tour. And I don't think riding badly is an indication of juice. If any, if he showed up everywhere in top form you would find that suspicious as well...

And are you really comparing the hilly Tirreno stages where he got dropped like a stone with the Poggio???

About his back issues. That's just pure speculation. I don't see how this has got to do with anything, but it tells me a lot about you

 

[Reemster]

how about you begin. how can a clean rider go faster than Laurent Jalabert in 1995, one of the most doped riders with the highest octane drugs ever in the history of the sport?

A tailwind of 29km/u perhaps and basically a big leadout towards his final burst. And ofcourse better equipment, training and ketones

 

[proffate]

The conditions were indeed perfect, first entire teams then 3 of the best riders in the peloton leading him out before he slung past with a ripping tailwind (according to the commentators).

I think it would be hard to calculate his w/kg ratio and also hard to know what a realistic <5 min human effort ought to be.

 

[zlev11]

A tailwind of 29km/u perhaps and basically a big leadout towards his final burst. And ofcourse better equipment, training and ketones

ketones are snake oil

"better training" lol. do you know how good training was when you could load up as much EPO as you wanted to? of all excuses i hate that one the most. the only way to do "better training" is to do more training and there's a human limit on how much training you can do before it becomes counterproductive...unless of course you're taking PED's.

 

[proffate]

ketones are snake oil

"better training" lol. do you know how good training was when you could load up as much EPO as you wanted to? of all excuses i hate that one the most. the only way to do "better training" is to do more training and there's a human limit on how much training you can do before it becomes counterproductive...unless of course you're taking PED's.

Glucose monitors, power meters, zwift intervals have to all be useful for something because it's not like structured training is fun. If it didn't work they wouldn't do it.

But I would point to better equipment before better training. I mean according to strava the chase group rode it at 24.1mph so obviously skinsuits and aero wheels are worth at least ten seconds. The speed 2 years ago was only a handful of seconds slower --- your pitchforks are a little late.

And again the setup... the world's best climber, best TTer, and best rouleur lead out the best puncheur/50x cx world champ for a 5min "climb", what do you think should happen? Even EPO has its limits...

 

[Ripper]

It was a great win today, good tactics, very favorable race dynamics, and great legs. But are you honestly arguing that you don't think vdP is supercharged? I mean, he's not as ridiculous as Poga Fett, but some of his performances have been pretty crazy.

This is not to say he does not have a serious disc issue (which I believe he does), or that his peaks and drops in form cannot be explained for other reasons.

 

[Rackham]

"Naturally, he's done diddly squat in an ITT since."

Uhm... He's ridden 4 itt's since then -> 2nd and 3rd in the 2022 Giro, 5th in the 2022 Tour and 15th in this year's Tirreno

"He has massive peaks & then vanishes entirely for large parts of the season."

When does he vanish for large parts of the season? You know he partakes in 3 disciplines right? He's had one bad tour. And I don't think riding badly is an indication of juice. If any, if he showed up everywhere in top form you would find that suspicious as well...

And are you really comparing the hilly Tirreno stages where he got dropped like a stone with the Poggio???

About his back issues. That's just pure speculation. I don't see how this has got to do with anything, but it tells me a lot about you

Yep, that's me! i.e. I'm totally guilty of I don't believe what I'm seeing in many of these races & I don't believe what I'm hearing when many of these riders unfurl a salvo of excuses when they're dropped like a stone. That includes the habitual ubiquitous "injuries" as well. But that is hardly exclusive to VdP, i.e. I'm not singling him out for criticism here - it's a system he's part of, end of. WvA does the same ("oh no I wasn't feeling so well I wasn't able to train yada yada yada" & then BAM, smashing win).

There's basically something very off about Van der Poel & has been for ages. I don't buy talk of "peak form" in the peloton, never did (people hilariously said the same in the 1990's...). It might theoretically make sense but absolutely not to the degree we see it abused (like the difference between Superman on form & Superman who's eaten some kryptonite for breakfast). In Van der Poel's case there's really only two forms, i.e. invincible watts megaton versus journeyman, like in Strade & Tirreno (or the worlds last year, although there was admittingly extra stuff involved there, such as extracurricular activities like playing tag with a couple of children in a hotel at night). This is a rider with monstrous peaks beyond wildest dreams & then he flatlines for the rest of the season. He isn't just unpredictable, he's... unfathomable?

Pog was played for a fool yesterday, i.e. he got mugged at the top of the Poggio by a rider whose main weapon appears to be the uncertainty every other rider has regarding his form on the day. My guess? It's merely the difference between riders who're on a program all year long versus a rider who clinically picks & chooses his objectives, pun intended.

 

[hulkgogan]

Yep, that's me! i.e. I'm totally guilty of I don't believe what I'm seeing in many of these races & I don't believe what I'm hearing when many of these riders unfurl a salvo of excuses when they're dropped like a stone. That includes the habitual ubiquitous "injuries" as well. But that is hardly exclusive to VdP, i.e. I'm not singling him out for criticism here - it's a system he's part of, end of. WvA does the same ("oh no I wasn't feeling so well I wasn't able to train yada yada yada" & then BAM, smashing win).

There's basically something very off about Van der Poel & has been for ages. I don't buy talk of "peak form" in the peloton, never did (people hilariously said the same in the 1990's...). It might theoretically make sense but absolutely not to the degree we see it abused (like the difference between Superman on form & Superman who's eaten some kryptonite for breakfast). In Van der Poel's case there's really only two forms, i.e. invincible watts megaton versus journeyman, like in Strade & Tirreno (or the worlds last year, although there was admittingly extra stuff involved there, such as extracurricular activities like playing tag with a couple of children in a hotel at night). This is a rider with monstrous peaks beyond wildest dreams & then he flatlines for the rest of the season. He isn't just unpredictable, he's... unfathomable?

Pog was played for a fool yesterday, i.e. he got mugged at the top of the Poggio by a rider whose main weapon appears to be the uncertainty every other rider has regarding his form on the day. My guess? It's merely the difference between riders who're on a program all year long versus a rider who clinically picks & chooses his objectives, pun intended.

I have a lot of sympathy for this view point, but then why not light it up for Strada? After all Willy Vout said once they gave the riders the good stuff, it was like crack, and they would want more and more and the coaches struggled to keep them in check.

Also, I know from my own racing career that form is a weird thing and you can be dog crap one week and then the next week you come around and you suddenly have another 50 watts.

Not like I think VDP is clean, lol.

 

[Reemster]

Yep, that's me! i.e. I'm totally guilty of I don't believe what I'm seeing in many of these races & I don't believe what I'm hearing when many of these riders unfurl a salvo of excuses when they're dropped like a stone. That includes the habitual ubiquitous "injuries" as well. But that is hardly exclusive to VdP, i.e. I'm not singling him out for criticism here - it's a system he's part of, end of. WvA does the same ("oh no I wasn't feeling so well I wasn't able to train yada yada yada" & then BAM, smashing win).

There's basically something very off about Van der Poel & has been for ages. I don't buy talk of "peak form" in the peloton, never did (people hilariously said the same in the 1990's...). It might theoretically make sense but absolutely not to the degree we see it abused (like the difference between Superman on form & Superman who's eaten some kryptonite for breakfast). In Van der Poel's case there's really only two forms, i.e. invincible watts megaton versus journeyman, like in Strade & Tirreno (or the worlds last year, although there was admittingly extra stuff involved there, such as extracurricular activities like playing tag with a couple of children in a hotel at night). This is a rider with monstrous peaks beyond wildest dreams & then he flatlines for the rest of the season. He isn't just unpredictable, he's... unfathomable?

Pog was played for a fool yesterday, i.e. he got mugged at the top of the Poggio by a rider whose main weapon appears to be the uncertainty every other rider has regarding his form on the day. My guess? It's merely the difference between riders who're on a program all year long versus a rider who clinically picks & chooses his objectives, pun intended.

Again with the flatline. When has he ever flatlined for longer periods without a good reason?

 

[Reemster]

Glucose monitors, power meters, zwift intervals have to all be useful for something because it's not like structured training is fun. If it didn't work they wouldn't do it.

But I would point to better equipment before better training. I mean according to strava the chase group rode it at 24.1mph so obviously skinsuits and aero wheels are worth at least ten seconds. The speed 2 years ago was only a handful of seconds slower --- your pitchforks are a little late.

And again the setup... the world's best climber, best TTer, and best rouleur lead out the best puncheur/50x cx world champ for a 5min "climb", what do you think should happen? Even EPO has its limits...

Tbf, I did point out better equipment before better training

 

[Aimar16]

He's had one bad tour. And I don't think riding badly is an indication of juice. If any, if he showed up everywhere in top form you would find that suspicious as well...

Exactly. The Giro was his first three-week race that he rode all the way to the end. He had no experience of how to race for 3 weeks, and he rode the Giro quite 'dumbly', wasting a lot of energy on pointless attacks. For me, it would have been suspicious if he had raced the Tour like he did the Giro... or would have been in top form after that three weeks of big effort.

 

[veganrob]

how about you begin. how can a clean rider go faster than Laurent Jalabert in 1995, one of the most doped riders with the highest octane drugs ever in the history of the sport?

Who ever said he was clean?

 

[zlev11]

Glucose monitors, power meters, zwift intervals have to all be useful for something because it's not like structured training is fun. If it didn't work they wouldn't do it.

But I would point to better equipment before better training. I mean according to strava the chase group rode it at 24.1mph so obviously skinsuits and aero wheels are worth at least ten seconds. The speed 2 years ago was only a handful of seconds slower --- your pitchforks are a little late.

And again the setup... the world's best climber, best TTer, and best rouleur lead out the best puncheur/50x cx world champ for a 5min "climb", what do you think should happen? Even EPO has its limits...

zwift intervals? people have been doing intervals for 100 years. sorry, "better training and equipment" doesn't equate to unlimited EPO use.

 

[zlev11]

Who ever said he was clean?

there's people in this thread claiming he went faster than EPO Jalabert because of ketones and interval training...

 

[pastronef]

I say race again the Poggio and VDP has to use a 1995 Look bike, with 36 spokes Mavic alu rims and a flappy jersey. then we'll see

 

[noob]

I say race again the Poggio and VDP has to use a 1995 Look bike, with 36 spokes Mavic alu rims and a flappy jersey. then we'll see

I'd so would want to see that

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I can't wait for the next Cycling Highlights video, which, I assume, will be called something along the lines of "The DIRTY DARK DUTCH DOPING SECRET: How Mathieu Van Der Poel DESTROYED the EPOggio", in which the smoking gun is that some Dutch riders died 30 years ago.

 

[pastronef]

I'd so would want to see that

and with the number of motorbikes Jaja and Fondriest had in front of them