State of Peloton 2023

[pastronef]

I think we're roughly at 1994 in this cycle. Will the wax melt or will they reach the sun?

why would you say 1994?

 

[Netserk]

Because 2019 was 1990. By the following year, it was obvious that something had changed.

 

[Red Rick]

They ride like they are on Panzerschokolade...


New Vallter 2000 record, 36sec faster than Adam Yates in 2021.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1638220376973910024

It really looks like Trek and a few other teams stepped up this year to play with the big boys.

I'm sceptical of looking too much into climbing times when there's like 20 guys breaking the climbing record. To me it just suggets weather conditions were great.

They didn't even race the climb aggressivey

 

[noob]

So how fast did they go today? New record?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

So how fast did they go today? New record?

No, but they didn't do too badly.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1638582646161936384

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1638582646161936384

 

[F_Cance]

Lopez 2019 kind of was the beginning of the new cycle

 

[Red Rick]

Lopez 2019 kind of was the beginning of the new cycle

Can't remember the circumstances that day.

But in terms of pure VAM, this doesn't particularly stand out.

 

[noob]

No, but they didn't do too badly.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1638582646161936384

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1638582646161936384

So the peleton as a whole was faster this time (which I suspected) but Lopez was even faster 2019.

 

[Ripper]

So the peleton as a whole was faster this time (which I suspected) but Lopez was even faster 2019.

Superman "nothing to see here I'm as clean as a baby's butt" Lopez. So natural that Astana (!) couldn't handle it.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Can't remember the circumstances that day.

But in terms of pure VAM, this doesn't particularly stand out.

If the pure VAM starts to stand out on a 6.6% climb we've got a real problem...

 

[noob]

Superman "nothing to see here I'm as clean as a baby's butt" Lopez. So natural that Astana (!) couldn't handle it.

Tbh I miss him.

 

[Red Rick]

If the pure VAM starts to stand out on a 6.6% climb we've got a real problem...

I account for that. It's very comparable to the Morcuera in last years Vuelta, which is about 10% longer in duration and about as high. There's not many of 20ish minutes at 6.5-7% that are climbed balls to the wall.

Actually La Rabassa 2018 - before COVID climbing times, was basically 41 minutes at the same VAM at the same gradient at the same average altitude.

 

[Mayomaniac]

I account for that. It's very comparable to the Morcuera in last years Vuelta, which is about 10% longer in duration and about as high. There's not many of 20ish minutes at 6.5-7% that are climbed balls to the wall.

Actually La Rabassa 2018 - before COVID climbing times, was basically 41 minutes at the same VAM at the same gradient at the same average altitude.

Fair point

 

[houtdffan]

I think we're roughly at 1994 in this cycle. Will the wax melt or will they reach the sun?

Forget the sun, they are reaching stars on the other side of the galaxy

However, this is so much more entertaining than the clean cycling era of the 2010s

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I think we're roughly at 1994 in this cycle. Will the wax melt or will they reach the sun?

They are not that supercharged yet. In 1994 Big Mig climbed Hautacam over a minute faster than our skinny superman Vinge last year. That's amazing VAM of 1800 m/h (6.4 w/kg) for freaking 35 minutes by a guy who's two times bigger!

 

[Netserk]

They are not that supercharged yet. In 1994 Big Mig climbed Hautacam over a minute faster than our skinny superman Vinge last year. That's amazing VAM of 1800 m/h (6.4 w/kg) for freaking 35 minutes by a guy who's two times bigger!

1994 (and 1996 as well) only featured Hautacam. I think Vingegaard could do it faster than Indurain in such a stage.

 

[Red Rick]

1994 (and 1996 as well) only featured Hautacam. I think Vingegaard could do it faster than Indurain in such a stage.

Could he do it on 90's bikes though?

I do think EPO era riders were only really better at Unipuerto climbs than now. Endurance, in-race recovery, and more anaerobic ability is much better now than back then I think.

 

[Netserk]

Could he do it on 90's bikes though?

I do think EPO era riders were only really better at Unipuerto climbs than now. Endurance, in-race recovery, and more anaerobic ability is much better now than back then I think.

The Alpe d'Huez record is in a 3 HC climbs stage. It's easier to compare one-climb efforts, but I definitely think endurance was better then (for the very best).

 

[Krzysztof_O]

1994 (and 1996 as well) only featured Hautacam. I think Vingegaard could do it faster than Indurain in such a stage.

Nobody in recent years has been able to maintain 1800 m/h of VAM for more than half an hour (on any single digit climb, unipuerto or not) but Big Mig did it. Longest I can recall are Remco for about 30 minutes in Tour of Norway and Pogacar for 28 minutes on Col du Romme. These are monstrous values for any climber, let alone a massive 80 kilo guy! What he did on some climbs (like La Plagne or Hautacam) was really ET and even if Vinge (who's as skinny as it gets) is able to match these climbing speeds it's not the same (if Ganna or Van Aert does it then yes, that's comparable to that supercharged feats). It's more sensible to compare Vingegaard to Pantani or Riis but I did this to show that back in good old days a guy of buffalo posture could climb faster or at least similarly to top climbers of today, which sums up perfectly what level of supercharging was applied back then.

 

[Red Rick]

The Alpe d'Huez record is in a 3 HC climbs stage. It's easier to compare one-climb efforts, but I definitely think endurance was better then (for the very best).

They did that stage at 30kph? They did virtually the same stage in 2018 and did 33kph average I hardly believe they were very fast on the Madeleine and CdF

I really don't have the impression they used to go very hard on consecutive climbs back in those days. Peak climbing times are super fast, but overall pace of mountain stages is much lower, even in stages that weren't much more difficult than they are now.

When Pantani put 9 minutes into Ullrich on Les Deux Alpes, he did a slower Galibier slower than Bardet in 2022.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

They did that stage at 30kph? They did virtually the same stage in 2018 and did 33kph average I hardly believe they were very fast on the Madeleine and CdF

I really don't have the impression they used to go very hard on consecutive climbs back in those days. Peak climbing times are super fast, but overall pace of mountain stages is much lower, even in stages that weren't much more difficult than they are now.

When Pantani put 9 minutes into Ullrich on Les Deux Alpes, he did a slower Galibier slower than Bardet in 2022.

OTOH Pantani in 1994 did superb numbers on Mortirolo and then crushed Indurain on Santa Cristina (high numbers again but not Mortirolo level). Maybe it was more common style of racing to focus more on last climbs. EPO is most helpful for efforts from a few minutes to a few dozens of minutes long but OTOH if one's VO2max is boosted he should be able to recover faster between climbs (if he applies the same power, which means lower percentage of max. effort).

 

[houtdffan]

They did that stage at 30kph? They did virtually the same stage in 2018 and did 33kph average I hardly believe they were very fast on the Madeleine and CdF

I really don't have the impression they used to go very hard on consecutive climbs back in those days. Peak climbing times are super fast, but overall pace of mountain stages is much lower, even in stages that weren't much more difficult than they are now.

When Pantani put 9 minutes into Ullrich on Les Deux Alpes, he did a slower Galibier slower than Bardet in 2022.

That shows how charged today's peloton is

But it sure is entertaining. Don't test the riders. The races 10 years ago were enough to put one to sleep

 

[Mayomaniac]

They did that stage at 30kph? They did virtually the same stage in 2018 and did 33kph average I hardly believe they were very fast on the Madeleine and CdF

I really don't have the impression they used to go very hard on consecutive climbs back in those days. Peak climbing times are super fast, but overall pace of mountain stages is much lower, even in stages that weren't much more difficult than they are now.

When Pantani put 9 minutes into Ullrich on Les Deux Alpes, he did a slower Galibier slower than Bardet in 2022.

Pantani's Galibier raid also happened when it was really cold and raining cats and dogs.

 

[Netserk]

They did that stage at 30kph? They did virtually the same stage in 2018 and did 33kph average I hardly believe they were very fast on the Madeleine and CdF

I really don't have the impression they used to go very hard on consecutive climbs back in those days. Peak climbing times are super fast, but overall pace of mountain stages is much lower, even in stages that weren't much more difficult than they are now.

When Pantani put 9 minutes into Ullrich on Les Deux Alpes, he did a slower Galibier slower than Bardet in 2022.

They were nearly 3 minutes faster on Croix-de-Fer in 1995 than in 2018.

 

[Riek s]

The baking soda is clearly doing its job in the peleton.