Steel is real(ly returning?)...

[froze]

Re: Re:

I've argued for a long time that pretty much everyone who rides a bike should be on a steel frame and I still think that's true, even for amateur racers. I'm sure if I handed my steel bike to a faster club-mate and took their Venge or Propel they'd still beat me in a race. I'd love to see steel back in the WT too, but I don't think it's going to happen.

One of Eddy's team mates once said, "Eddy can win on my bike, I can't win on his'..

Cute story but win on Sunday, sell on Monday. Mass produced carbon is cheap to make, why they 'insist' on teams using the stuff with the BIG margins.

I agree with the steel thing, but until a lighter steel comes out, though Rodriguez made a bike called the Outlaw that weighed 13.5 pounds out of steel fully equipped of course but it's expensive at around $11,000 which is fine for wealthy people but not so much for everyone else. So to buy a steel bike today would weigh around 22-23 pounds, about the same as they did 35 years ago, and you can't even find a steel road bike at an LBS, though Bikes Direct has a decent one called the Motobecane Gran Premio Elite for just under $900 with 105 components. So today's weight weenies want a light bike with fancy buzzwords and a winning well known smiling pro racer endorsing it. And that's the issue with steel currently, to make it light like carbon you'll pay through the nose to get it, so why pay that much when you can get a CF bike for less? People don't want to hear the practical side of anything these days.

I own 6 steel bikes, but I stayed with metal when I got my last new bike 4 years ago with a titanium Lynskey Peloton (their lowest costing model at the time), but the ti frame does have a bit smoother ride than the steel bikes, except for my touring bikes, but those also have 32 mm wide tires vs 23 or 25 and thus has about 40 psi less air which gives it a bit nicer ride than the Lynskey.

A lot of people don't realize how cheap it is to make a CF frame and fork in Asia.

Not true..I had a Waterford R-33 with Record that weighed 16 pounds with aluminum cockpit and rims..add some carbon and easily below the UCI limit.

what's not true? the 13 1/2 pound bike I mentioned?

http://www.rodbikes.com/catalog/outlaw/outlaw-main.html

 

[froze]

Re: Re:

...and you can't even find a steel road bike at an LBS...

Absolutely false.

..A lot of people don't realize how cheap it is to make a CF frame and fork in Asia..

Sure, if you were born yesterday or living under a rock for the last 20 years.

Steel road bikes are very difficult to find at LBS, none of the 4 shops in my city carry a steel road bike, they do carry steel comfort bikes if you want to call those road bike...I don't. I've been to other stores in other cities and no steel bikes. When I said you can't find a steel bike in an LBS I should have been more exact, but in general you cannot find them any more, aluminum and Carbon Fiber is all you will mostly find, sure you could go into a shop that sells Colnago or some other brand that makes a steel bike and they might have one in stock, usually you'll have to order it because they don't want a steel bike that cost as much as lighter AL and CF bikes taking up inventory space on the showroom floor that may not sell, unless they're in a weird market where steel road bikes are all the rage. And there are a few shops that sell Waterford's and the such but they specialize in the more unique boutique type of cycling, along the lines of Rivendell philosophy, but I was speaking in general terms in regards to most LBS's. The only way I can get a steel road bike at an LBS where I live is by special order from the one brand they carry that has a steel model.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

You must live in a pretty small market, froze, with only 4 shops around you because in the last 7 years I've lived in three cities and can't throw a rock without hitting multiple dealers that carry all kinds of steel bikes. All price ranges and and types covered from a multitude of brands. Low to high, road, mtb, cx, tour, commute. I'm in the industry for 20+ years and travel a lot, and your experience is not by any means indicative of the norm.

 

[42x16ss]

If I ever go back to steel I'd go with one of these:

http://www.llewellynbikes.com

Along with being one of the best anywhere in the world, Darrell is a local to boot

 

[froze]

Re:

If I ever go back to steel I'd go with one of these:

http://www.llewellynbikes.com

Along with being one of the best anywhere in the world, Darrell is a local to boot

The large markets I've been too was back 15 years and more ago and you could still readily find steel bikes, but even in Indianapolis the 2 places I've gone to had no steel bikes, nor did bike shops I visited in recently in Santa Barbara CA, Kerrville Tx, Daytona (Port Orange) Florida, . Please keep in mind I mean steel road bikes, not comfort bikes, trikes, fixies, cruisers, touring, or MTB's. I know that Raleigh makes a steel road bike but the local shop doesn't carry the steel one, Kona makes one too but the shop that carried Kona never had the steel one in stock and now they're out of business where I live. Yes I know steel bikes are out there, but the shops I've been to just didn't stock them, but you could order one; and I'm sure if a store did carry a steel road bike they would only have one so the selection would be very limited. It's not like 20 years ago I could walk into any bike shop and they would have at least a dozen different brands and models of steel bikes mixed in with a dozen or so AL and a dozen or so CF bikes, now it's predominately CF and AL.

Steel bikes today is kind of like going into a bike shop and grab a nice mid end (they don't make a high end any more) 27" tire! Sure you might find one but it will probably be a cheap and crappy Cheng Shin, or Kenda, or some such copy of them, you have to go on the internet to get an nice mid end 27" tire. I have two bike stores that carry Conti tires but none carry a 27" tire in that brand even though Conti makes 5 of them in that size...I have to order it, but I can get the cheap and crappy Kenda 27" tire in one of the stores.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

If I ever go back to steel I'd go with one of these:

http://www.llewellynbikes.com

Along with being one of the best anywhere in the world, Darrell is a local to boot

The large markets I've been too was back 15 years and more ago and you could still readily find steel bikes, but even in Indianapolis the 2 places I've gone to had no steel bikes, nor did bike shops I visited in recently in Santa Barbara CA, Kerrville Tx, Daytona (Port Orange) Florida, . Please keep in mind I mean steel road bikes, not comfort bikes, trikes, fixies, cruisers, touring, or MTB's. I know that Raleigh makes a steel road bike but the local shop doesn't carry the steel one, Kona makes one too but the shop that carried Kona never had the steel one in stock and now they're out of business where I live. Yes I know steel bikes are out there, but the shops I've been to just didn't stock them, but you could order one; and I'm sure if a store did carry a steel road bike they would only have one so the selection would be very limited. It's not like 20 years ago I could walk into any bike shop and they would have at least a dozen different brands and models of steel bikes mixed in with a dozen or so AL and a dozen or so CF bikes, now it's predominately CF and AL.

Steel bikes today is kind of like going into a bike shop and grab a nice mid end (they don't make a high end any more) 27" tire! Sure you might find one but it will probably be a cheap and crappy Cheng Shin, or Kenda, or some such copy of them, you have to go on the internet to get an nice mid end 27" tire. I have two bike stores that carry Conti tires but none carry a 27" tire in that brand even though Conti makes 5 of them in that size...I have to order it, but I can get the cheap and crappy Kenda 27" tire in one of the stores.

Is this going the way of the the nostalgic 'I wish shops were like how it was in the 90's?' Well sure, back then most of the pro peloton was still riding steel and you could go to a shop and buy one with the money you made working a p/t landscaping job. Stating the obvious. But to generalize that you can't find high end steel bikes anywhere now because your 4 shop town doesn't have any and this list isn't exactly what I would consider very bikey at all. Kerrville, TX? Port Orange Florida? Ha-ha! Are you serious?? Indianapolis is, you just didn't look hard enough.

 

[froze]

Re: Re:

If I ever go back to steel I'd go with one of these:

http://www.llewellynbikes.com

Along with being one of the best anywhere in the world, Darrell is a local to boot

The large markets I've been too was back 15 years and more ago and you could still readily find steel bikes, but even in Indianapolis the 2 places I've gone to had no steel bikes, nor did bike shops I visited in recently in Santa Barbara CA, Kerrville Tx, Daytona (Port Orange) Florida, . Please keep in mind I mean steel road bikes, not comfort bikes, trikes, fixies, cruisers, touring, or MTB's. I know that Raleigh makes a steel road bike but the local shop doesn't carry the steel one, Kona makes one too but the shop that carried Kona never had the steel one in stock and now they're out of business where I live. Yes I know steel bikes are out there, but the shops I've been to just didn't stock them, but you could order one; and I'm sure if a store did carry a steel road bike they would only have one so the selection would be very limited. It's not like 20 years ago I could walk into any bike shop and they would have at least a dozen different brands and models of steel bikes mixed in with a dozen or so AL and a dozen or so CF bikes, now it's predominately CF and AL.

Steel bikes today is kind of like going into a bike shop and grab a nice mid end (they don't make a high end any more) 27" tire! Sure you might find one but it will probably be a cheap and crappy Cheng Shin, or Kenda, or some such copy of them, you have to go on the internet to get an nice mid end 27" tire. I have two bike stores that carry Conti tires but none carry a 27" tire in that brand even though Conti makes 5 of them in that size...I have to order it, but I can get the cheap and crappy Kenda 27" tire in one of the stores.

Is this going the way of the the nostalgic 'I wish shops were like how it was in the 90's?' Well sure, back then most of the pro peloton was still riding steel and you could go to a shop and buy one with the money you made working a p/t landscaping job. Stating the obvious. But to generalize that you can't find high end steel bikes anywhere now because your 4 shop town doesn't have any and this list isn't exactly what I would consider very bikey at all. Kerrville, TX? Port Orange Florida? Ha-ha! Are you serious?? Indianapolis is, you just didn't look hard enough.

You assume a lot don't you? I never said I wish for shops to be like the 90's again. The point of my discussion is that steel is not anywhere near as available as they use to be, plain and simple, don't try to read anything more into then that. As far as not looking hard enough...I didn't go in looking for a steel bike, if I was I would have looked harder.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

There's more high end steel road to choose from today than ever before. Just because you can't go into every shop in Anytown USA to buy one doesn't validate the assertion that they're "not as available as they used to be."

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

Re:

If I ever go back to steel I'd go with one of these:

http://www.llewellynbikes.com

Along with being one of the best anywhere in the world, Darrell is a local to boot

Thanks one for posting.

Looks real nice!!

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

Perhaps it's time to start a new thread (sticky) listing all the Custom Frame Builders?? Maybe by location??
One for list for Steel, One for Ti??

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

If I ever go back to steel I'd go with one of these:

http://www.llewellynbikes.com

Along with being one of the best anywhere in the world, Darrell is a local to boot

Thanks one for posting.

Looks real nice!!

The photos really don't do the workmanship justice. The other weekend I saw 3 Llewellyns in various trim getting around Brisbane in one 3 hour ride. They are stunning.

One example, on the lugged frames, that isn't chrome plating like a Colnago Master, it's a hand polished stainless steel lug. He also uses silver brazing on all frames. You get what you pay for!

 

[froze]

Re:

There's more high end steel road to choose from today than ever before. Just because you can't go into every shop in Anytown USA to buy one doesn't validate the assertion that they're "not as available as they used to be."

"not as available as they use to be", how long ago are you going back to when you say "use to be"? 5 years ago? sure that's true, 20 years ago? not true whatsoever.

For some reason you want to keep going around and around with this and keep beating a dead horse, you know as much as I do that the occasional shop that carries any steel bikes will have maybe one or two steel bikes on display at the most, but steel bike will not comprise of even 10% of the floor space reserved for bikes, unless you go to a store that sells Rivendell or Waterford only products, or only vintage bikes.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Perhaps it's time to start a new thread (sticky) listing all the Custom Frame Builders?? Maybe by location??
One for list for Steel, One for Ti??

This could be a good idea actually...

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

There's more high end steel road to choose from today than ever before. Just because you can't go into every shop in Anytown USA to buy one doesn't validate the assertion that they're "not as available as they used to be."

"not as available as they use to be", how long ago are you going back to when you say "use to be"? 5 years ago? sure that's true, 20 years ago? not true whatsoever.

That's your quote there, froze.

For some reason you want to keep going around and around with this and keep beating a dead horse, you know as much as I do that the occasional shop that carries any steel bikes will have maybe one or two steel bikes on display at the most, but steel bike will not comprise of even 10% of the floor space reserved for bikes, unless you go to a store that sells Rivendell or Waterford only products, or only vintage bikes.

Because you can't make broad sweeping generalizations and assume they apply to everybody. I can go to a few different shops in my neighborhood, not city, neighborhood, and pick up a very raceable steel road bike. Not just this city, but the other two I've lived in for over the last few years. So you're not speaking for me, not in the least bit. How about I move to some hick town with only one bar and complain about the beer selection and that there's nowhere else to go drink. You're essentially doing the same thing here.

 

[froze]

Re: Re:

There's more high end steel road to choose from today than ever before. Just because you can't go into every shop in Anytown USA to buy one doesn't validate the assertion that they're "not as available as they used to be."

"not as available as they use to be", how long ago are you going back to when you say "use to be"? 5 years ago? sure that's true, 20 years ago? not true whatsoever.

That's your quote there, froze.

For some reason you want to keep going around and around with this and keep beating a dead horse, you know as much as I do that the occasional shop that carries any steel bikes will have maybe one or two steel bikes on display at the most, but steel bike will not comprise of even 10% of the floor space reserved for bikes, unless you go to a store that sells Rivendell or Waterford only products, or only vintage bikes.

Because you can't make broad sweeping generalizations and assume they apply to everybody. I can go to a few different shops in my neighborhood, not city, neighborhood, and pick up a very raceable steel road bike. Not just this city, but the other two I've lived in for over the last few years. So you're not speaking for me, not in the least bit. How about I move to some hick town with only one bar and complain about the beer selection and that there's nowhere else to go drink. You're essentially doing the same thing here.

Great, now tell me what steel racing bike that some amatuer racer would want to use in a club race that is on display, in stock, and for sale at your LBS right now.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

Great, now tell me what steel racing bike that some amatuer racer would want to use in a club race that is on display, in stock, and for sale at your LBS right now.

Mosaic RS-1
Breadwinner Lolo
Stoemper Taylör
All-City Mr. Pink
Cinelli Nemo & XCR
Bombtrack Tempest

See, race ready steel bikes exist outside your little microcosm of none. This is a sample of a few shops just in my neighborhood and I know I'm missing a bunch. Should the tour continue, or are we just about done here?

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

Re: Re:

Great, now tell me what steel racing bike that some amatuer racer would want to use in a club race that is on display, in stock, and for sale at your LBS right now.

Mosaic RS-1
Breadwinner Lolo
Stoemper Taylör
All-City Mr. Pink
Cinelli Nemo & XCR
Bombtrack Tempest

See, race ready steel bikes exist outside your little microcosm of none. This is a sample of a few shops just in my neighborhood and I know I'm missing a bunch. Should the tour continue, or are we just about done here?

Nah, keep it rolling......I'm enjoying the giggles

 

[froze]

Re: Re:

Great, now tell me what steel racing bike that some amatuer racer would want to use in a club race that is on display, in stock, and for sale at your LBS right now.

Mosaic RS-1
Breadwinner Lolo
Stoemper Taylör
All-City Mr. Pink
Cinelli Nemo & XCR
Bombtrack Tempest

See, race ready steel bikes exist outside your little microcosm of none. This is a sample of a few shops just in my neighborhood and I know I'm missing a bunch. Should the tour continue, or are we just about done here?

Nah, keep it rolling......I'm enjoying the giggles

Wow, now what bike shops sell those? Come on, I said production bikes that are typically found in LBS's, this is the same BS you did with which is lighter crap. By the way, there must be some confusion, I'm located in America, the Mosaic is special order located in Canada; the second one is special order from the company directly and located in Ireland; the third, the Stoemper is special order custom made located in Oregon and sold in no stores as of yet, sort of like Rivendell; the All City Mr Pink does have dealers in the USA, so congrats you found one; the Cinelli's have less dealer in the US than the All City which surprised me since I've never seen an All City either in LBS's or on the street but not so with Cinelli...at least on the street anyways, most of Cinelli dealers on the west coast which I knew that would be the case, they have very few dealers anywhere else; and lastly the Bombtrack has no dealers in the USA just one mail order distributor in Iowa.

So again you're arguing over nothing, the bikes you listed are not readily available in the majority of stores across the USA, you just proved my point, thank you. The only exception is the All City which I can't visit all the dealers to find out if they carry the Mr Pink or is it a special order, but regardless finding a production steel road bike in stock at an LBS is going to be a challenge vs finding an aluminum or carbon fiber bikes.

So yeah, me too, I've been laughing my arse off with these very difficult to find bikes you seem to think indicates that vast majority of LBS's in the USA all carry a vast selection of production made in stock sized of steel racing bikes. My god that's hysterical.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Meh, not surprised really coming from someone who bases their findings about not being able to find steel road race bikes in places like Kerrville, TX or Port Orange, Florida. Pills man, don't forget to take those pills!

 

[froze]

Re:

Meh, not surprised really coming from someone who bases their findings about not being able to find steel road race bikes in places like Kerrville, TX or Port Orange, Florida. Pills man, don't forget to take those pills!

Not surprising that you can't list the stores that sell some of those bikes you mentioned, in fact most of them were in other countries and not sold in stores here anywhere, you have to order directly from them to get the bike to you, and they were custom built bikes...again you proved my point with most of those examples. Look man you're just arguing to argue, everyone here, if someone dared to comment on this rather stupid discussion, knows that stores carry mostly AL and CF road bikes and very little if any steel road bikes that are worthy of racing in road races with, not MTB's, not cross bikes, not gravel bikes, not a fixie, not a touring bike, but production, not custom made ROAD racing bikes, do you understand the distinction there? I fear not. Some of the stores may have a catalog to show a would be buyer and would have to special order them, but stocking various sizes of production made steel road bikes isn't commonplace, thus selection is very limited. Go online and look at the big online bike retailers here in the US sell very few if any steel road racing bikes.

Even this large online shop has no steel road racing bikes: https://www.competitivecyclist.com/road-bikes?fl=true

I could look up more but I've wasted enough time on this dribble moronic nonsense.

and that's all I'm going to say about this nonsense that has been completely unhelpful to anyone here, and I'm sure they're tired of the nonsense as well; like I said you like to argue just to argue so go ahead and argue, but from now on you're arguing with yourself. Have a nice time doing that.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Re: Re:

Not surprising that you can't list the stores that sell some of those bikes you mentioned, in fact most of them were in other countries and not sold in stores here anywhere, you have to order directly from them to get the bike to you, and they were custom built bikes...again you proved my point with most of those examples.

SE Portland. Velo Cult, the Mosaic dealer is about a mile from my home. That shop alone has had everything on that short list on display and(or) in stock at some point except for the Cinellis. 1 of about 20 shops in this city.

Look man you're just arguing to argue, everyone here, if someone dared to comment on this rather stupid discussion, knows that stores carry mostly AL and CF road bikes and very little if any steel road bikes that are worthy of racing in road races with, not MTB's, not cross bikes, not gravel bikes, not a fixie, not a touring bike, but production, not custom made ROAD racing bikes, do you understand the distinction there? I fear not. Some of the stores may have a catalog to show a would be buyer and would have to special order them, but stocking various sizes of production made steel road bikes isn't commonplace, thus selection is very limited. Go online and look at the big online bike retailers here in the US sell very few if any steel road racing bikes.

Even this large online shop has no steel road racing bikes: https://www.competitivecyclist.com/road-bikes?fl=true

I could look up more but I've wasted enough time on this dribble moronic nonsense.

and that's all I'm going to say about this nonsense that has been completely unhelpful to anyone here, and I'm sure they're tired of the nonsense as well; like I said you like to argue just to argue so go ahead and argue, but from now on you're arguing with yourself. Have a nice time doing that.

Nice tantrum. Usually reserved for the 4 year old in the grocery store but whatever. So you can't find a steel road race bike in your 4 shop town or when you visit those real hotbeds of cycling like Kerrville, TX and Port Orange, Florida. I mean, eer, these were some of your prime examples and proceeded to *** about that you can't find steel bikes anywhere. If you're in Santa Barbara and you want a steel road race frame you go to LA. It's not 1996 anymore so big brand stores don't sell what you're looking for. What a revelation!! Does this mean that most people can't find a decent rig at their preferred price point elsewhere? Hell no! But you seem to insist that since it's your experience that's just how it is and now we're all just relegated to bikesdirect.com. In your short existence here you've definitely proven that you're the master of the broad sweeping generalization. Not just here but in other threads too. Good luck with that approach, I'm sure you'll last long.

 

[froze]

http://stories.worldsteel.org/innovation/steel-returns-to-professional-cycling/

The bike their talking about is the Volare, the frame and fork weighs 5.3 pounds, CF, AL, and TI are all lighter than that, however the components and wheels are so light that as a whole it meets the minimum weight requirement, which is great but for the average person buying a Volare and hanging 105 components and lower costing wheels will bring the bikes weight up to early 80's steel bike weights, so I doubt a club rider would want to spend that kind of money to get a steel frame down to UCI minimum weight limit...unless all they care about is getting a durable long lasting bike and weight of the bike is not an issue.

What's interesting when reading that article is that Reynolds doesn't make the tubing a unnamed company in the US makes and sends the tubes to Reynolds who then butts it.

I think at some point in the future metal of some nature will explode onto the racing scene, metals called high-entropy alloys, currently it's a new science with no products that have made it to market yet but the promise is good. Our current technology has only looked at a very small section of what alloys can do, once high-entropy alloys take off it will open such a huge section of different metals that the various types will dwarf what we currently have. I have a feeling I may be dead before some sort of high-entropy alloy is introduced into the cycling world, but some of you might be around and that could be an exciting time for the cycling industry.

 

[froze]

Re: Re:

There's more high end steel road to choose from today than ever before. Just because you can't go into every shop in Anytown USA to buy one doesn't validate the assertion that they're "not as available as they used to be."

"not as available as they use to be", how long ago are you going back to when you say "use to be"? 5 years ago? sure that's true, 20 years ago? not true whatsoever.

That's your quote there, froze.

For some reason you want to keep going around and around with this and keep beating a dead horse, you know as much as I do that the occasional shop that carries any steel bikes will have maybe one or two steel bikes on display at the most, but steel bike will not comprise of even 10% of the floor space reserved for bikes, unless you go to a store that sells Rivendell or Waterford only products, or only vintage bikes.

Because you can't make broad sweeping generalizations and assume they apply to everybody. I can go to a few different shops in my neighborhood, not city, neighborhood, and pick up a very raceable steel road bike. Not just this city, but the other two I've lived in for over the last few years. So you're not speaking for me, not in the least bit. How about I move to some hick town with only one bar and complain about the beer selection and that there's nowhere else to go drink. You're essentially doing the same thing here.

Now we know you can't read because you even quoted what I said: "not as available as they use to be", how long ago are you going back to when you say "use to be"? 5 years ago? sure that's true, 20 years ago? not true whatsoever.[/quote] Note I did not say steel road bikes cannot be found whatsoever, what I said was (I'm repeating this for the hard of understanding) "they're not as available as they use to be", did you catch that? No of course not, and why not? because for some reason you have decided to follow me around and try to get into fights with me, I haven't done anything to piss you off to start this silly elementary school kid reaction from you, you need to go back into your workshop and build wheels instead of building drama.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Every year around Tour time and Christmas for whatever reason the most abhorrent personalities bum rush this forum since it's inception almost a decade ago. It's like clockwork. So kudos to you sir for keeping that time-honored tradition alive!