Stereotyping all pro cyclists as dopers

[hfer07]

....and don't forget to add to the Cycling Stereotypes that all Colombian riders are linked to Drug Cartels & somehow related to Pablo Escobar

 

[popolo]

Popolo you sure seem like an angry young lad or lass whatever the case may be..

Nope, not angry. Bewildered maybe..

You can get your point across without being condescending and beligerent. ..

Apparently, I can't get my point across with the style I've utilized although I disagree with your characterization.

Fact is that I think cycling is cleaning up. ..

Reread that sentence. You start off with "fact is" and then you offer what you "think."

One of the leading advocates for clean sport Jonathon Vaughters has posted frequently on this forum..

Are you familiar with the phrase "lip service?"

and he has debunked alot of the stereotypes tossed about...

I've lurked here for quite a while and I haven't seen him debunk one thing. To the contrary, JV is in a unique position to confirm the drug soaked status of the sport and engages in a coverup. Part of this coverup is advising FL to admit what FL has done without implicating others.

He has put several shreaking posters in their place for sure....

"Shrieking" posters? You mean the people who call cycling the drug infested cesspool it is?

Wasn't there a poster who called JV out and JV wouldn't answer him publicly? JV made some kind of backchannel appeal to the poster so the poster wouldn't be mean to JV in public?

Thankfully we have people like him that can help turn the tide away from the cheaters to the new clean breed.

Right, by keeping the problems silent and hidden! Wasn't JV trying to sign AC btw?

 

[Oldman]

yeah it's pathetic really. one look at the different watt outputs in races in the last few years that have been decreasing, tells you cycling has become if not completely clean then at the very least a lot cleaner.

This is one of the best ways to change the sport's reputation; don't you think? Seeing some of the GT alpine performances in the 3rd week of a Tour always struck me as "fantastic", and not in a believable way. If that's part of the "show" that the old school DSs feel was necessary they are truly a primitive lot. You've got cameras digitally focused on every rider's face and the suffering can be real; not some falsely dramatic attack.
The riders should quit whining about radios and seriously provide a uniform voice on the issue. If only 5% are still jacking then the chorus should be pretty loud. Right now you scarcely hear a peep...

 

[erader]

one of the phases of denial includes thinking that certain riders are clean. you're better off assuming they all dope, and in time when the blinders are lifted you will believe that.

erader

 

[Skandar Akbar]

The Schleck brothers are clean along with garmin.

 

[biokemguy]

One source

I hear this argument often:

yeah it's pathetic really. one look at the different watt outputs in races in the last few years that have been decreasing, tells you cycling has become if not completely clean then at the very least a lot cleaner.

It sounds compelling, but I haven't found a good source that compiles all the riders different reported outputs into a single place. Does that exist?

Until I find it or someone posts it, then the rest is a bunch of anecdotal evidence without any real statistical significance.

 

[The Hitch]

Glad to see so many posters trying to fill the WL vacuum. Flickers doing well but i have to say that Skandar with "Jonathon " and that Schleck brothers are clean, and getting responces as well, is really stepping up to the task.

 

[Skandar Akbar]

Glad to see so many posters trying to fill the WL vacuum. Flickers doing well but i have to say that Skandar with "Jonathon " and that Schleck brothers are clean, and getting responces as well, is really stepping up to the task.

I don't know what you mean everybody is piling on cyclists and I don't think it is fair. I think Vaughters has done good along with whacking the snot out of hater posters in here with his pithy posts. I think Schlecks are clean as well. I can think and write these things hopefully during the course of a civil conversation but the likes of popolo circling around like hawk like looking for carcus of real fan to pluck from the pasture of fandom may cause this conversation to go in gutter.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

A "diary entry" from Cadel's wife highlighted a situation that some posters on this forum do, stereotyping all pro cyclists as being dopers. Her diary entry is in response to a piece by Christiano Gatti for TuttoBiciWeb (i can't find the piece) who describes the role wives gilrfriends, etc play in their husbands or boyfriends play in doping.

http://www.cadelevans.com.au/chiara.aspx

What are your thoughts about this stereotyping?

Would the highlighted not be considered stereotyping?

Anyway, it sounds like Chiara is a typical Italian wife who is jealous that her husband is not at home so she can berate him while cooking pasta dishes and drinking red wine as Cadel prefers cracking open a few tinnies and having some shrimp on the barbie .... or did I just stereotype?

 

[luckyboy]

We have no reason to trust pro cyclists. Certainly they are not all doping, but the guys contesting for GTs and other big races are.

The way Ricco was zipping up mountains before his first ban seemed to make people suspicious and they were proved to be right.
If a rider like Cancellara... was caught. That would be the finish for me and pro cycling. That would be too hard to accept.

Difference between Ricco, Sella, Schumacher etc. and Cancellara is that Cancellara hasn't been caught.

Cance continuously dominating TTs and cobbled races by over a minute is as suspicious as any of their performances.

 

[Skandar Akbar]

This is a no win discussion. Is it possible to win a race by a minute if you are clean? What if the competition is clean? How do you know if a doper is beating a doped peloton by a minute or if a clean rider is beating a clean peloton by a minute?

What will it take, in the eyes of the most cynical posters in the forum, to prove performances and the peloton are mostly clean?

 

[**Uru**]

It is actually annoying that the various governing bodies, media, teams, armchair doping fanboys, riders, and rider's wives choose to be so fixated on the subject of doping in cycling. They want to make such a huge case about every positive. Because these people make a big deal about it, it is doping that is center stage and the racing is an after thought.

I like the racing. In the end, I could care less if riders dope.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

This is one of the best ways to change the sport's reputation; don't you think? Seeing some of the GT alpine performances in the 3rd week of a Tour always struck me as "fantastic", and not in a believable way. If that's part of the "show" that the old school DSs feel was necessary they are truly a primitive lot. You've got cameras digitally focused on every rider's face and the suffering can be real; not some falsely dramatic attack.
The riders should quit whining about radios and seriously provide a uniform voice on the issue. If only 5% are still jacking then the chorus should be pretty loud. Right now you scarcely hear a peep...

because basically nobody is doping anymore, if there's no problem then it doesn't need to be fixed. even in the epoe years of the 2000s any interview with riders from madiot would talk about cyclisme a deux vitesses, not anymore

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I hear this argument often:




It sounds compelling, but I haven't found a good source that compiles all the riders different reported outputs into a single place. Does that exist?

Until I find it or someone posts it, then the rest is a bunch of anecdotal evidence without any real statistical significance.

go to the website of ivan basso and check his watt output of the giro he won last year and in 2006, over 40 watt down, despite now being in his physical peak and he still won the giro of 2010... that says a lot

 

[maltiv]

If she is so obsessed about silencing the critics they could just prove that he is clean once and for all, by doing a 24/7 surveillance project (such as Gerdemann suggested last year). Simply claiming to be clean is not enough.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

If she is so obsessed about silencing the critics they could just prove that he is clean once and for all, by doing a 24/7 surveillance project (such as Gerdemann suggested last year). Simply claiming to be clean is not enough.

yeah become your own prisoner to satisfie your paranoia

 

[popolo]

It is actually annoying that the various governing bodies, media, teams, armchair doping fanboys, riders, and rider's wives choose to be so fixated on the subject of doping in cycling. They want to make such a huge case about every positive. Because these people make a big deal about it, it is doping that is center stage and the racing is an after thought.

I like the racing. In the end, I could care less if riders dope.

Most normal, law abiding, rule following, moral people are disturbed by the direct correlation between doping and cycling success.

I don't dare characterize the personality/psychological traits of those who are ok with fraudulent behavior.

 

[popolo]

transparency

This is a no win discussion. Is it possible to win a race by a minute if you are clean? What if the competition is clean? How do you know if a doper is beating a doped peloton by a minute or if a clean rider is beating a clean peloton by a minute?

What will it take, in the eyes of the most cynical posters in the forum, to prove performances and the peloton are mostly clean?

Transparency, honesty..We haven't been getting that from JV and the other Omerta boys.

Cycling has proven itself to be a dirty sport but the people who are transmitting that message are the cynical ones?

Seems to be an upside down, Alice in Wonderland take on things.

 

[luckyboy]

because basically nobody is doping anymore, if there's no problem then it doesn't need to be fixed.

wow ......

 

[Skandar Akbar]

Transparency, honesty..We haven't been getting that from JV and the other Omerta boys.

Cycling has proven itself to be a dirty sport but the people who are transmitting that message are the cynical ones?

Seems to be an upside down, Alice in Wonderland take on things.

You have your own definition of transparency and honesty that probably doesn't fall in line with normal human interaction. Why don't you help us out?

Surely it is possible to define a point in time, due to the actions of the players, that the peloton is proven clean? It is much easier to hide behind generic bs talking points like 'transparency' and 'honesty' that enables you to be the perpetual cynic on your own terms and timelines Mr. Popolo. Please enlighten us on how we know when somebody is telling the truth and being transparent. If possible please frame your answer in terms of what is actually feasible in the real world instead of popolo bizarro land.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Chiara's in a tough position. If she speaks up on the stereotyping of all cyclists as dopers, she only adds fuel to the fire by producing yet another article about cycling that talks about doping.

Evans could be clean, could be dirty. It really doesn't matter. Cyclists will be stereotyped as dopers regardless of what she says. And if she's defending her husband's honour, the question is, against what? Am I more likely to believe Evans is clean as a whistle because his wife said so than because he himself said so? I mean, she's not exactly going to say "my husband dopes" is she?

There are riders out there that I feel safe saying are clean. David Moncoutié and Pierrick Fedrigo are two, for example. Cadel Evans isn't one of them. That doesn't mean that I think he's doping, just that I don't feel safe saying he's clean.

José Iván Gutiérrez called Alejandro Valverde's suspension and being tarred as a doper unfair. He didn't change my mind. Neither will Chiara Passerini.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Back when I used to post to the non-Clinic Contador thread, I seem to recall someone tossing around the term "Spanish dopers" quite a bit, as if all riders from Spain are guilty. I'll stop there.

Whenever I said that, I was always saying that ina satirical tone. I always 'threw' that phrase around everyone knew that I was having some fun because the spanish seemed to be beating Cadel a fair bit.

Jump to conclusions?

Seriously, you need to sit on a couch and have a talk with a professional.

You resent the fact that cycling is a proven drug addled sport?

You spend your time getting bent out of shape that your heroes are frauds?

You should really dig down and figure out what FL was saying about there not being a Santa Claus.

Proven? Because their have been a lot of positives you jump to conclusions before you have hard facts

Would the highlighted not be considered stereotyping?

Anyway, it sounds like Chiara is a typical Italian wife who is jealous that her husband is not at home so she can berate him while cooking pasta dishes and drinking red wine as Cadel prefers cracking open a few tinnies and having some shrimp on the barbie .... or did I just stereotype?

Stereotype:
1. A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.
2. One that is regarded as embodying or conforming to a set image or type.


PLease tell me how that comments was stereotyping. I will help you out. Look at the word "some".

Chiara's in a tough position. If she speaks up on the stereotyping of all cyclists as dopers, she only adds fuel to the fire by producing yet another article about cycling that talks about doping.

Evans could be clean, could be dirty. It really doesn't matter. Cyclists will be stereotyped as dopers regardless of what she says. And if she's defending her husband's honour, the question is, against what? Am I more likely to believe Evans is clean as a whistle because his wife said so than because he himself said so? I mean, she's not exactly going to say "my husband dopes" is she?

There are riders out there that I feel safe saying are clean. David Moncoutié and Pierrick Fedrigo are two, for example. Cadel Evans isn't one of them. That doesn't mean that I think he's doping, just that I don't feel safe saying he's clean.

José Iván Gutiérrez called Alejandro Valverde's suspension and being tarred as a doper unfair. He didn't change my mind. Neither will Chiara Passerini.

Finally a rational opinion....Though in response to people who think Evans is dirty, Cofidis was known to have some doping going on, so why is Moncoutie said to be clean? That assosiciation of guilt is all you have but I would rather not turn this thread into what it is turning into. Keep it on topic some of you.

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>


Proven? Because their have been a lot of positives you jump to conclusions before you have hard facts

<snip>


Finally a rational opinion....Though in response to people who think Evans is dirty, Cofidis was known to have some doping going on, so why is Moncoutie said to be clean? That assosiciation of guilt is all you have but I would rather not turn this thread into what it is turning into. Keep it on topic some of you.

if we waited for the UCI to get hard facts then there would be no doping....


Moncoutie is famous for not taking anything, not even vitamin tablets and his results tend to prove that. Sad that when a rider is clean we know about it, the rest, well we have to connect the dots and have our suspicions until the UCI picks on a rider, or the rider makes a mistake with their doping, like Frei or Riccó.

There are no hard facts with regards to Evans but his position in the sport is very close to doping from his time at teams heavily associated with doping, T-Mobile to Rihs now.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Moncoutié is said to be clean because multiple sources, both team-internal and team-external, point towards this conclusion. The team bosses at Cofidis have reportedly had a lot of trouble with him, motivation-wise and science-wise. They have had trouble even persuading him to take vitamin pills - "if you want Vitamin C, eat an orange" goes the story. He's even said he's happy to ride lower down the order knowing that there are dopers in front of him, because he just enjoys riding his bike.

The association of guilt that Moncoutié gets from being with Cofidis is thus less than that which Evans gets from being associated with a string of teams that have less sanguine history; his being an outsider at T-Mobile may help his case, but certainly not as much as Gaumont and Boyer complaining that they couldn't get Moncoutié to take meds (they're also putting themselves on the line by confessing to pushing meds on riders in the process).

Obviously character comes into it as well; Evans is a very driven character who always tries to win when in a position to (often to his detriment in the long-term as he fails long-term goals because of pushing too hard in short-term ones) and seems spurred on by competition, and highly stressed - very easy to believe that a highly-strung individual fighting for wins but just being pipped by doped riders would be tempted in the pursuit of victory. Much less easy to believe that a laid-back rider who doesn't really care about GCs, has a laissez-faire approach to training and is much less successful would be tempted to dope.

On the positive side of things though, when I look at Moncoutié and say that I feel safe in assuming he's clean, that offers up an example of a clean rider who has won stages of two GTs, three mountain stages of the Vuelta, and major mountaintop finishes of several other races. I've seen Moncoutié used as a yardstick for what clean riders are capable of on this forum - this is fair enough but has one fatal flaw: it makes the assumption that there isn't anybody more naturally talented than David Moncoutié (or as talented as David Moncoutié but more dedicated). So it stands to reason that, considering his lackadaisical attitude to training and GC riding, a clean rider of similar talent level but who treats the sport more seriously could do better than Moncoutié; a superior talent who treats the sport more seriously could, in theory at least, do a LOT better than Moncoutié - and considering he has a GT top 10 on his palmarès (8th, 2008 Vuelta) that's where you start opening up the possibilities of GT riders who are clean.

 

[hrotha]

because basically nobody is doping anymore, if there's no problem then it doesn't need to be fixed. even in the epoe years of the 2000s any interview with riders from madiot would talk about cyclisme a deux vitesses, not anymore

Madiot has changed his tune several times throughout his career, he's not some sort of anti-doping paladin. It's true the French don't talk about the cyclisme a deux vitesses anymore, but at best that only means the advantage you can safely get from doping has diminished, which isn't something most people argue (at worst it means the French have given in to the dark side). There's a massive leap of faith between that and "nobody dopes." The advantage is smaller, but it's still there. Boosts were also smaller before EPO and HGH, and yet people doped like there was no tomorrow. The current record suggests the incidence of the problem is still very high.

But even if doping had magically disappeared from pro cycling, as you claim... So? 2006 is a short time ago. Past dopers are directly benefitting from their cheating. Hell, Basso didn't even lose his Giro victory. Others haven't even been caught and suspended. If you could assure me that we could have a fresh start and general amnesty and no one would ever dope again, I'd gladly accept, but that's not going to happen, so there's no need to forget the sheer injustice of all of this. Yeah, let's compare watts from now to watts from 2007 or 2008, say they're proof the sport is cleaner (it's always "cleaner", never "cleaner than"), and ignore the implication that those 2007 or 2008 values belonged to doped performances done by the exact same people.

It's disgusting. People comparing their own data to their older, more doped data and claiming that suggests they're clean. Say your 39 hematocrit is a compelling number, but forget you were probably at 49 years before, and still claim you've been clean all along. Gah.