Strade Bianche 2023, March 4, one-day classic (men's & women's)

[Extinction]

The explanation as to why I make it that Valter was stronger than Benoot is right there? Also, Benoot's attacks really were not that good. He attacked hard and got a nice gap sure... then he immediately collapsed and was easily closed by others. Attacking hard isn't really some big positive if you can't sustain it. If 20KM's from the finish the DS told Benoot to do an all out 30s max or his contract would be voided the attack would look incredibly impressive putting a huge gap into others... for about a minute until he would blow up and get dropped.

Benoot's attacks weren't really that good, huh? Well at least they opened up the possibility of getting away, had Valter played stopper as he should have. By contrast, Valter's attacks literally went nowhere. And Benoot didn't/shouldn't have had to sustain it alone, as he had two for company, Maduas and Rui Costa I think, with Valter to "count on" behind (that Valter, as it turned out, wasn't to be counted on when he should have been, is why Benoot, quite rightly, sent him to those infernal regions in angry exasperation with that arm gesture). Had Valter simply sat on Simons' wheel and again played stopper as he should have in that moment, instead of attacking over a legless Simons, causing the rest to catch back up, who were on fumes and going nowhere otherwise; quite possibly Benoot would have ridden for the win instead of second. So Valter's self-interested riding both neutralized Benoot's attacks and eliminated any possibility of a functioning chase (as Mohoric correctly observed), whereas Benoot was, in any case, the better option going to the line as we saw.

Benoot already won Strade, just recently won Omloop and has countlessly worked for others, no questions asked, when told to. So let me get this straight, Valter, who is new on the team and hasn't won anything except a stage at Catalunya prior to joining Jumbo-Visma, should have had Benoot working for him, even though Benoot's attacks gained something and he was better at the finish? Well unless Valter was clearly on world beating form, which he wasn't, he rather first needs to pay his dues on the team before expecting to ride for himself in the company of a teammate like Benoot during a race the latter has already won.

 

[Extinction]

The very first time Valter attacked he almost immediately opened quite a big gap. Couldn't move up towards Pidcock though.

Benoot's attacks always kinda fall asleep. You saw that today just like at last year's Omloop. It seems like he can't really sustain it. Even last Sunday he actually won by outfoxing his contrahents.

Hence why I'm so happy Tiesj won Kuurne though. He's the ideal lieutenant, but barely wins himself.

So you agree Valter's attacks went nowhere. I don't think Benoot had to be able to sustain it alone, because a) he had company in the late race defining moment, ultimately as far as catching Pidcock was concerned, and b) a teammate behind, who should have played stopper instead of riding for himself thus only neutralizing Benoot's promising effort.

I don't see how this isn't clear. Even Valter recognizes the team's podium was a flop, but if he thinks it's because Benoot didn't ride for him he's crazy.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I feel it's safe to say both Valter and Benoot attacks went nowhere. They were racing for themself on this race. And as nobody individually could tackle the gap to Pidcook. Sometimes i guess that is what you get and that is it.

 

[Extinction]

I feel it's safe to say both Valter and Benoot attacks went nowhere. They were racing for themself on this race. And as nobody individually could tackle the gap to Pidcook. Sometimes i guess that is what you get and that is it.

It's only safe to say Benoot's attack went nowhere, because Valter wasn't sacrificed between them. Everybody knows that in Jumbo's situation, one of the two needed to be used to the other's advantage and that that should have been the neo-arrival Valter. Every cycling logic says this. Considering who has already repeatedly worked for others in the team and thus paid his dues, who has already proven he can win the race and thus was the better horse to bet on in the end, has the team car saying to Valter, now you get on the front and pull hard for Benoot. Considering the remaining legs that was the only way Pidcock would have been caught and a late attack by Benoot doing the necessary damage.

 

[tobydawq]

Benoot's attacks weren't really that good, huh? Well at least they opened up the possibility of getting away, had Valter played stopper as he should have. By contrast, Valter's attacks literally went nowhere. And Benoot didn't/shouldn't have had to sustain it alone, as he had two for company, Maduas and Rui Costa I think, with Valter to "count on" behind (that Valter, as it turned out, wasn't to be counted on when he should have been, is why Benoot, quite rightly, sent him to those infernal regions in angry exasperation with that arm gesture). Had Valter simply sat on Simons' wheel and again played stopper as he should have in that moment, instead of attacking over a legless Simons, causing the rest to catch back up, who were on fumes and going nowhere otherwise; quite possibly Benoot would have ridden for the win instead of second. So Valter's self-interested riding both neutralized Benoot's attacks and eliminated any possibility of a functioning chase (as Mohoric correctly observed), whereas Benoot was, in any case, the better option going to the line as we saw.

Benoot already won Strade, just recently won Omloop and has countlessly worked for others, no questions asked, when told to. So let me get this straight, Valter, who is new on the team and hasn't won anything except a stage at Catalunya prior to joining Jumbo-Visma, should have had Benoot working for him, even though Benoot's attacks gained something and he was better at the finish? Well unless Valter was clearly on world beating form, which he wasn't, he rather first needs to pay his dues on the team before expecting to ride for himself in the company of a teammate like Benoot during a race the latter has already won.

Neither of these things are true.

 

[Jagartrott]

This was a very disappointing race.

The fact that it was unclear who would win for a long time was not because the racing was so great, it was because of riders doing stupid stuff. Pidcock should always have been caught. Maybe he could've still won it, but the fact that he stayed away was mostly because of the chasers fudging up rather than him being so strong. Thus, his solo cannot be compared to ones of, say, Pogacar (Strade), Boonen (Roubaix), Dumoulin (Giro sh*tchase), etc.

To me, the racing was for the most part just infuriating and frustrating. I did not have a favourite, so it's not fan-talk, it's simply the level of stupidity that gets to me. First, once you come into reach of Pidcock, you always need to catch him. Letting him dangling out there is dangerous, gifting 20 additional seconds several times because of sitting up is plain dumb. Second, with Costa there, you know he will play 'smart', but you should mostly ignore that - he can no longer win on this type of finish. Third, Jumbo should have made a clear decision on who is the leader. Since Benoot is better on the steep gradients and had the number 1 bib, they should've let Valter work more. Especially because he is also the better rouleur, and it's in the rouleur sections they could've caught Pidcock. Letting Valter work more would've also spurred at least Madouas and Mohoric to work with them. That did not happen. To the contrary, Valter seemed to even sabotage the group by sitting up at the front, drinking ostentatiously, etc. What was that about?

Even when letting Valter do more of the chasing, he could've still had a chance of actually winning by playing the team game. Benoot was probably the slowest of the front group last weekend, but still he won KBK by doing exactly that. Now, all Valter got was being second last of the group. The way he rode made sure his chance of winning was close to zero. With him helping more in the chase, that probability would've been significantly higher (say, 10-20%). I don't know what happened in the Jumbo team car, but this was simply unacceptable decision making.

 

[Savant12]

This was a very disappointing race.

I thought it was hilarious. Pidcock should never have won but we had the combined drama of Rui Costa meets Rabofail, only one of those variables should be present in a race, to have both present turns it into pure theater.

 

[Extinction]

Neither of these things are true.

Well we only know one is for sure, which is why you gamble on the other. That Jumbo-Visma failed to do so, either because it gave no ordered or Valter refused to obey them we shall never know if the other was true. But attempting to find out was their only option, because Valter not sacrificing himself meant certain failure.

 

[tobydawq]

Well we only know one is for sure, which is why you gamble on the other. That Jumbo-Visma failed to do so, either because it gave no ordered or Valter refused to obey them we shall never know if the other was true. But attempting to find out was their only option, because Valter not sacrificing himself meant certain failure.

I was specifically talking about the two things I underlined.

I'm not saying everything in your post is straight up wrong but I think the difference in level between Benoot and Valter yesterday was so small that it's tough to say who they should ride for. With their total cycling strategy it also makes sense to keep both options alive (but in the end that d decision made them both lose).

 

[Andy262]

Pidcock will be nowhere.
Jumbo to win this.

Just reading back through the thread and found this beauty…..

 

[DNP-Old]

Gianni Vermeersch being rude at the finish

https://twitter.com/x/status/1632114228369686533

View: https://twitter.com/Nico_isn/status/1632114228369686533?s=20

Vermeersch just doing everything he can to retain the title of most hated guy in the peloton.

 

[Savant12]

Just reading back through the thread and found this beauty…..

TBF, you could say this for every Pidcock classics race this year and it would be 95% true.

 

[Extinction]

I was specifically talking about the two things I underlined.

I'm not saying everything in your post is straight up wrong but I think the difference in level between Benoot and Valter yesterday was so small that it's tough to say who they should ride for. With their total cycling strategy it also makes sense to keep both options alive (but in the end that d decision made them both lose).

My bad on Benoot at Omloop, but the way CyclingStats listed it, it seemed Valter won that Catalunya stage, but it was Bagiolo. At any rate, while I agree their level were pretty much the same, I think strategy wise one of them had to be sacrificed to catch Pidcock and that that was Valter and not Benoot. Benoot's finish was stronger, he's been on the team longer, paid his dues many times over, won the race before, etc. I mean to me it was a no brainer and the fact that Valter has admitted to "not comunicating properly" (read between the lines, "I'm racing for myself and not helping you"), especially given his introduction on the team and the fact that he was weaker at the finish, indicates he made an egregious mistake that should have seen him given a thorough talking-down, with many explatives, on the team bus after the race.

 

[tobydawq]

My bad on Benoot at Omloop, but the way CyclingStats listed it, it seemed Valter won that Catalunya stage, but it was Bagiolo. At any rate, while I agree their level were pretty much the same, I think strategy wise one of them had to be sacrificed to catch Pidcock and that that was Valter and not Benoot. Benoot's finish was stronger, he's been on the team longer, paid his dues many times over, won the race before, etc. I mean to me it was a no brainer and the fact that Valter has admitted to "not comunicating properly" (read between the lines, "I'm racing for myself and not helping you"), especially given his introduction on the team and the fact that he was weaker at the finish, indicates he made an egregious mistake that should have seen him given a thorough talking-down, with many explatives, on the team bus after the race.

Perhaps. I think it's a good point. But it could also have led to a situation where Valter sacrificed himself, they caught Pidcock on the flat before the third last gravel sector, and then Benoot would have found himself alone in a 5-man group for 24 kilometres and their numerical advantage would be gone.

But if Valter really did not follow team directions, that's obviously not too bright in his first WT race for the world's best team.

 

[memyselfandI]

It's not only about JV tactics fail, you see. Because no matter if Benoot or Valter getting in that small escape gruppo instead of say Bettiol, same result still. Would have dropped in uphill and/or downhill, would not dropped TP in those tiny flats.

 

[theyoungest]

Perhaps. I think it's a good point. But it could also have led to a situation where Valter sacrificed himself, they caught Pidcock on the flat before the third last gravel sector, and then Benoot would have found himself alone in a 5-man group for 24 kilometres and their numerical advantage would be gone.

But if Valter really did not follow team directions, that's obviously not too bright in his first WT race for the world's best team.

A lot of 'Rabofail' and 'they should have done this, they should have done that' being thrown around here, but the reality of these races is often that the people in the car don't know what the heck is going on, and riders aren't robots.

Or, as Valter said after the race, it's not Playstation. After admitting that he made a mistake and should have sacrificed himself for Benoot. As for Tiesj, he said that their main mistake was not following Pidcock when he attacked, which is probably true.

 

[Extinction]

Perhaps. I think it's a good point. But it could also have led to a situation where Valter sacrificed himself, they caught Pidcock on the flat before the third last gravel sector, and then Benoot would have found himself alone in a 5-man group for 24 kilometres and their numerical advantage would be gone.

But if Valter really did not follow team directions, that's obviously not too bright in his first WT race for the world's best team.

I have no idea if Valter followed team directions or if he was even given any. My point is that, no matter what else, you first had to catch Pidcock. Now given the lack of cooperation in the chase group, which prevented that from happening, Jumbo-Visma needed to use their numerical advantage by sacrificing one of the two to get the chases to work more together (Mohoric meant this and, like me, thought Valter was the one to be made domestique).

And even if, as you hypothesize, Benoot would have found himself in a 5-up group alone, it's always better to fight for the win then second place, no?

 

[Extinction]

A lot of 'Rabofail' and 'they should have done this, they should have done that' being thrown around here, but the reality of these races is often that the people in the car don't know what the heck is going on, and riders aren't robots.

Or, as Valter said after the race, it's not Playstation. After admitting that he made a mistake and should have sacrificed himself for Benoot. As for Tiesj, he said that their main mistake was not following Pidcock when he attacked, which is probably true.

To the bolded, even if what you say is true about the team cars being out of the loop, Valter admitting to not doing the right thing makes his "PlayStation" argument moot. As all he needed to do was do the right thing, but chose not to.
And what if Jumbo-Visma actually was fully aware of the race situation, told him to work for Benoot, but he chose not to?

 

[theyoungest]

To the bolded, even if what you say is true about the team cars being out of the loop, Valter admitting to not doing the right thing makes his "PlayStation" argument moot. As all he needed to do was do the right thing, but chose not to.
And what if Jumbo-Visma actually was fully aware of the race situation, told him to work for Benoot, but he chose not to?

This is actually the Playstation argument demonstrated to the fullest. You're now basically saying that Valter isn't allowed to have hindsight. Personally I think he's being quite generous because to me it didn't look like Benoot was that much stronger. And Valter actually did do the most work in that group.

 

[Extinction]

This is actually the Playstation argument demonstrated to the fullest. You're now basically saying that Valter isn't allowed to have hindsight. Personally I think he's being quite generous because to me it didn't look like Benoot was that much stronger. And Valter actually did do the most work in that group.

How so? Valter admits to a mistake, which means he was conscious of not having supported Benoot, as he should have. Hence one doesn't always need to always be automated al la PlayStation to do what the team needs, just a willingness to do so, which he clearly wasn't. By contrast, PlayStation implies that you have mindless chess pieces to move as you like, whereas Valter clearly was aware of his choices and likely rebelled against team orders.

Well, actually, I guess I'm agreeing and disagreeing with him at once, because he's correct to say were not automatons, but precisely because this is the case taking access to the PlayStation analogy is a bogus excuse. Since he knew he was in error. It would have been different if he didn't know he was not doing the right thing. Then the PlayStation argument would have had some merit.

 

[theyoungest]

How so? Valter admits to a mistake, which means he was conscious of not having supported Benoot, as he should have. Hence one doesn't always need to always be automated al la PlayStation to do what the team needs, just a willingness to do so, which he clearly wasn't. By contrast, PlayStation implies that you have mindless chess pieces to move as you like, whereas Valter clearly was aware of his choices and likely rebelled against team orders.

So if you don't do something, it's always with malicious intent and ignoring what you've been told? That's what you're saying?

 

[Extinction]

So if you don't do something, it's always with malicious intent and ignoring what you've been told? That's what you're saying?

In his case I think, yes: he knew he was doing the wrong thing and did it anyway.

 

[Lequack]

If Contador never attacked Lance he might've ended up as just his always trusty domestique.

 

[armchairclimber]

Most of this discussion now is moot. They didn't co-operate. Mohoric said he was toast, so wouldn't have faired better. Even if they'd have caught Pidcock, there's little likelihood that they'd have stayed on his wheel down the late descents ... not all of them anyway. And it's most likely, given his cyclocross background, that he'd have taken the win on the final climb anyway. He was the strongest, most courageous and smartest rider on the day and a deserved winner. If any of those riders in the chasing group actually had the legs to catch him, they'd have done it when he was just 6 seconds ahead and clearly visible. I don't think any of them actually had it in them.

 

[tobydawq]

I have no idea if Valter followed team directions or if he was even given any. My point is that, no matter what else, you first had to catch Pidcock. Now given the lack of cooperation in the chase group, which prevented that from happening, Jumbo-Visma needed to use their numerical advantage by sacrificing one of the two to get the chases to work more together (Mohoric meant this and, like me, thought Valter was the one to be made domestique).

And even if, as you hypothesize, Benoot would have found himself in a 5-up group alone, it's always better to fight for the win then second place, no?

Of course. I guess they were gambling that Pidcock would come back on his own. Trying to have their cake and eat it too.