Study which show us that training with PM does not make you faster

[fabramowski]

i use to ride with a buddy of mine that use a regular watch and feel to do a HR test...is that better then a PM....

 

[JayKosta]

Any training tool or method that is used poorly or incorrectly will not help achieve the desired results.

Any training tool or method that is used in a skillful manner will help achieve the desired results.

The 'big' question seems to be -
For a typical 'good coach' or a thoughtful 'do-it-yourself' athlete, is there a particular tool or method that is more likely to be correctly and skillfully used so as to be most helpful?

There are just too many ways to do things wrong....
Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[Jeroen Swart]

FrankDay....the earth is flat....get over it...when you can achieve what Dr. Coggan has let us know....it like he said she said...blah, blah.........

I have really enjoyed these responses.

Frank:

You will never win this argument. It is akin to trying to convert an Al-quaida footsoldier to Judaism. It won't be happening with sound reasoning.

And when you do put forth a convincing point, you will be ridiculed and denegrated.

Andy:

Thank you for keeping yourself in check this time round. Your point about the design is valid and we acknowledged this in our discussion. However, as a starting point, constant HR vs constant Power was always going to be the first study. Perhaps you can follow up on all the rhetoric and do a follow up study using a variable power protocol. Design it well and maybe it will even make it into MSSE

However, I see you have some Kiwi followers who like to emulate your less controlled self. Sincere flattery, no doubt.

To round off:

Let me re-iterate.

Using a Power meter is a better way to train. Just don't get caught up trying to do constant power intervals. Despite all Andy's protestations, the reality is that most athletes and most coaches prescribe power based intervals at constant workload.

Thank you all for the robust debate but I think this point is a bit drawn out now.

Enjoy the Giro this weekend.

 

[Elagabalus]

why is every coachfargo reply a bloody press conference with herself?

Brother, you don't know the half of it!

Google A. Coggan and Frank Day. They've apparently been chasing each other around for years-through the internet (on at least three other forums!) and half the galaxy. They've broken the space-time continuum.

 

[Elagabalus]

Frank! Stop sniveling...and learn to love the bomb! This isn't about HRM vs. PM. It's bigger than that. This is about selling more Power Cranks™! It's about market share and listening to the people.

And the people have spoken and they want power! So put two strain gauges in your Power Crank™ bad boy and presto "The Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely Crank". Now you can measure the power output of each individual leg! And possibly show quantitative results in peddling efficiency. Or use them to show total power output or anything in between.

Drop the price by 200 bucks and everyone will be buying your power cranks.

The hunted becomes the hunter, Frank!

 

[Colonel]

Brother, you don't know the half of it!

Google A. Coggan and Frank Day. They've apparently been chasing each other around for years-through the internet (on at least three other forums!) and half the galaxy. They've broken the space-time continuum.

Took the words out of my mouth butthe sad thing is, is that anytime someone posts something Andy always shoots him or her down to make them look like fools and dont know what they talking about.

Far from professional in my personal view but I guess small man syndrome is alot more common that I thought.

 

[function]

"To win this event a rider needs to do 18Watts per Kg in the first 8 seconds and then sustain 8 watts per kg for the remaining distance"

Who ever says:

"To win this event a rider needs to sustain 158 beats per minute" (or some similar value)

i use to ride with a buddy of mine that use a regular watch and feel to do a HR test...is that better then a PM....

In the above example, looks like an individual pursuit, it is perfectly valid and common to use a clock/pace to determine the demands of the event. Do you think this is not the case?

 

[fabramowski]

In the above example, looks like an individual pursuit, it is perfectly valid and common to use a clock/pace to determine the demands of the event. Do you think this is not the case?

this isn't inside on a track. It's on the road, and sometimes in a race, he was very oldschool, he even road.... a steel frame bike with 32 spoke laced wheels..

 

[fabramowski]

PM and HRM are tools, use them, if not, that’s ok too...like Merckx said" ride lots", that what his training consisted of...

 

[CoachFergie]

However, I see you have some Kiwi followers who like to emulate your less controlled self. Sincere flattery, no doubt.

Good to see you set such a high standard from the outset with your first post that included a jibe at Andy and some pretty blatant name dropping, appeals to authority and celebrity endorsement. Very professional.

Using a Power meter is a better way to train. Just don't get caught up trying to do constant power intervals. Despite all Andy's protestations, the reality is that most athletes and most coaches prescribe power based intervals at constant workload.

A Doctor and a Exercise Physiologist and like Frank you don't understand that a power meter is a measurement tool not a training method. That you can't recognise this even your own study that showed nothing more than interval training being more effective than JRA is probably why it was bumped down to JSCR.

 

[FrankDay]

Frank:

You will never win this argument. It is akin to trying to convert an Al-quaida footsoldier to Judaism. It won't be happening with sound reasoning.

And when you do put forth a convincing point, you will be ridiculed and denegrated.

I know all that. I have been sparring with Coggan for many years and with Fergie for just a few. I understand their tactics and that it is "impossible" to "win". However, the person who does not have the academic background and training to understand this stuff on their own need to understand that there is more than one way to look at this stuff and nobody can point to any study to prove their way is the best way.

I consider Coggan an academic bully. This type is pretty common in medicine. These folks are very well educated but are totally incapable of having a "normal" back and forth on any issue they hold a strong view about (which in Coggan's case seems to be just about everything) with anyone they consider to be the least bit inferior. If someone is making a point they disagree with they tend to attack them personally or professionally rather than discussing the issues and evidence. My background pretty much allows me to match him in almost every category and I simply refuse to allow him (an his minions) to dominate these issues. It wouldn't matter if I had nothing to sell, I would still be here. The fact that I do have a product complicates my mission but since there is no one else who seems willing to take him on, I am here. At least I don't follow him to the "Wattage forum". I just decided to let those folks to keep congratulating each other on how smart and good looking they all are.

Anyhow, I am so glad you did this study. As with most good studies it opens up more new questions than it answered. Hopefully your study and debates such as this will stimulate many more studies along this line (and many other lines such as you indicated in an earlier post). Knowledge is power. Lack of knowledge requires guessing.

 

[Jeroen Swart]

Good to see you set such a high standard from the outset with your first post that included a jibe at Andy and some pretty blatant name dropping, appeals to authority and celebrity endorsement. Very professional.



A Doctor and a Exercise Physiologist and like Frank you don't understand that a power meter is a measurement tool not a training method. That you can't recognise this even your own study that showed nothing more than interval training being more effective than JRA is probably why it was bumped down to JSCR.

Hamish, you do yourself no favours with your lack of civility and blatantly disrespectful comments.

Does referring to the work of Lucia constitute name dropping? If that is the case, I see you've been doing it all day with regards to Nimmerichter. It is called citing. Even on a forum.

Furthermore, you insult all the researchers who have published in what is a fairly good journal, never mind the insult you keep throwing at the editors. This from an individual who (as far as I can ascertain) hasnt published even a single manuscript. Perhaps you should wait until you have just a little credibility before being so flippant.

If you want to debate a point, use sound reasoning and logic. Don't lower yourself to being a thug who believes that insults and intimidation will convince anyone with a real interest in the topic.

 

[CoachFergie]

Hamish, you do yourself no favours with your lack of civility and blatantly disrespectful comments.

Does referring to the work of Lucia constitute name dropping? If that is the case, I see you've been doing it all day with regards to Nimmerichter. It is called citing. Even on a forum.

Furthermore, you insult all the researchers who have published in what is a fairly good journal, never mind the insult you keep throwing at the editors. This from an individual who (as far as I can ascertain) hasnt published even a single manuscript. Perhaps you should wait until you have just a little credibility before being so flippant.

If you want to debate a point, use sound reasoning and logic. Don't lower yourself to being a thug who believes that insults and intimidation will convince anyone with a real interest in the topic.

Very professional. Like Frank, attack me rather than the comments I have made.

 

[Jeroen Swart]

Very professional. Like Frank, attack me rather than the comments I have made.

Perhaps you should make a meaningful comment, rather than bashing semantics.

 

[FrankDay]

Perhaps you should make a meaningful comment, rather than bashing semantics.

Jeroen,

Per your advice to me, you cannot win this.

 

[Jeroen Swart]

I know all that. I have been sparring with Coggan for many years and with Fergie for just a few. I understand their tactics and that it is "impossible" to "win". However, the person who does not have the academic background and training to understand this stuff on their own need to understand that there is more than one way to look at this stuff and nobody can point to any study to prove their way is the best way.

I consider Coggan an academic bully. This type is pretty common in medicine. These folks are very well educated but are totally incapable of having a "normal" back and forth on any issue they hold a strong view about (which in Coggan's case seems to be just about everything) with anyone they consider to be the least bit inferior. If someone is making a point they disagree with they tend to attack them personally or professionally rather than discussing the issues and evidence. My background pretty much allows me to match him in almost every category and I simply refuse to allow him (an his minions) to dominate these issues. It wouldn't matter if I had nothing to sell, I would still be here. The fact that I do have a product complicates my mission but since there is no one else who seems willing to take him on, I am here. At least I don't follow him to the "Wattage forum". I just decided to let those folks to keep congratulating each other on how smart and good looking they all are.

Anyhow, I am so glad you did this study. As with most good studies it opens up more new questions than it answered. Hopefully your study and debates such as this will stimulate many more studies along this line (and many other lines such as you indicated in an earlier post). Knowledge is power. Lack of knowledge requires guessing.

Frank, I leave the fight to you.

I really have better things to do on a Friday night and in general.

I really love Hamish's last comment. After throwing insults for 2 days, he plays the victim when one responds to his insults. He can now add "hypocrite" to his resume too.

Over and out!

 

[CoachFergie]

Frank, I leave the fight to you.

I really have better things to do on a Friday night and in general.

I really love Hamish's last comment. After throwing insults for 2 days, he plays the victim when one responds to his insults. He can now add "hypocrite" to his resume too.

Over and out!

Victim? Your comments didn't hurt me, they amused me greatly. There is plenty to discuss like your misconception on what a power meter does and how it should be used yet you chose to make this all about me and Andy. Nice way to hide from the real arguments.

 

[durianrider]

Getting a power meter (power tap) was the BEST product Ive ever bought for my cycling.

I mean you dont get a better way to train out on the road. Ive been smashing my pb's up timed climbs since having a powermeter. Its motivated me to eat even more carbs, less fat, get more early nights, stay hydrated and train with purpose. All of which equate to more fun. Cos at the end of the day, fun is what its about.

 

[Boeing]

Meaningful? Ok coachgoogle you do have a long leash here maybe this will help you before you post again


Being mistaken about something is not by itself a flaw in a person's reasoning process, and neither is being unskilled when it comes to constructing and analyzing logical arguments. However, the worse a person is at such tasks, the less likely they are to realize it, the more likely they are to overestimate their abilities, and the less likely they are to realize that others' efforts are superior.

 

[Boeing]

Getting a power meter (power tap) was the BEST product Ive ever bought for my cycling.

I mean you dont get a better way to train out on the road. Ive been smashing my pb's up timed climbs since having a powermeter. Its motivated me to eat even more carbs, less fat, get more early nights, stay hydrated and train with purpose. All of which equate to more fun. Cos at the end of the day, fun is what its about.

I can hear your PM readings now... 1 banana 2 banana 3 banana 4......

 

[oldborn]

Some people really getting nervous without reason.
They are learning about sport for decades, but whole century would not be enough to understand something about it.
That is way i am happy that humans have a limited time to live.

 

[Boeing]

Some people really getting nervous without reason.
They are learning about sport for decades, but whole century would not be enough to understand something about it.
That is way i am happy that humans have a limited time to live.

There is a great show on TV called what not to wear. I like the british version better.

 

[FrankDay]

There is a great show on TV called what not to wear. I like the british version better.

My wife is stuck with her own American version of what not to wear almost every day.

 

[oldborn]

And i must stop smoking 36min49sec on 10km running is not bad for 38. years old smoker.
My Vo2Max would not getting higher but anyway i am wondering

 

[FrankDay]

And i must stop smoking 36min49sec on 10km running is not bad for 38. years old smoker.
My Vo2Max would not getting higher but anyway i am wondering

Yes, most people would describe a 36:49 10km as smokin'. Congrats.