Subpoenas issued -- Armstrong's goose is cooked

[Desperate Moments]

didn't one of the links about the subpoenas mentioned the grand jury wont be public ? if so i guess that's why a reference to anonymity.

but i have a general question, can someone explain the us law on grand jury ?

does it mean a subpoenaed witness wont be interviewed by the prosecutors/investigators prior to the commencement of a grand jury hearing ?

does the fact that a witness (like hamilton) agreeing to cooperate only if subpoenaed trying to limit the number of questions he/she will be asked and thus to a degree try to limit/impede the full investigation ?

Grand jury proceedings are secret, by law. The only participants who can make public what was said to a grand jury are the witnesses themselves, if they choose to do so. Witnesses can and will be interviewed by the prosecutors prior to testifying, though what they say at that time will not be under oath.

And rare is the federal grand jury that does not result in indictments ultimately being handed down.

 

[editedbymod]

It is interesting, for sure.

He is denying things (ownership) which the good people on the forum impeached him on in about 20 minutes (SCA transcript). Trained legal folks will skewer him on that for sure.

He is getting separation on the issue of facilitating doping, which if you are the middle mgmt on the team (doctors, directors, etc) you could be getting set-up.

Pleading ignorance of riders doping on the team also comes off badly, and using the NFL as your analogy points to it as if it is assumed they were all doping but you should not be held for your teams actions.... Very weak.

This is the unglueing of Armstrong before our eyes. Yelling at the reporter, snapping at the heckler, crashing on his face in California, crashing all over France.... it is the end in slow motion.

Just another rider?

This just a few days ago:

“I always think that will be judged by your peers. You're the boss, you have the yellow jersey, you're on top of the podium, have millions of dollars... And they have nothing. The most honourable thing, then, is to respect them. If not, you have nothing. I have always done that with my team: give them more than money: respect... We have to be a family. And it's not a criticism of Alberto. It is how I believe things should be done.”

 

[Benotti69]

...
Flame away. I can handle it

Dude, you wanna go down with Uniballer when he burns, wow that is real top class dedicated fanboy stuff there. Way to go man. you need a hand lighting it

 

[Benotti69]

.." give them more than money: respect..."

bet most of them would have preferred the money that was their due..

 

[hfer07]

Armstrong shaping to push Bruyneel under the bus?

"It was not my company, I didn't have a position, I didn't have an equity stake, I didn't have a profit stake, I didn't have a seat on the board. I was a rider on the team. I can't be any clearer than that," Armstrong said.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-willing-to-co-operate-with-doping-investigation

as I wrote in another thread: The Feds are after the ring-which is going to pop Bruyneel's name ---so LA by now knows his only way out is to deny everything to the point that he's willing to acknowledge the systematic doping indeed was part of the team training-but he never took part of it, and was organized/controlled by the Hog... so then the hog is likely to bite back and maybe come up with "hard evidence" of lance himself doping-as a last desperate resource to get him hurt too...

bottom line: this is serious "Gourmet" sh!t

 

[Benotti69]

as I wrote in another thread: The Feds are after the ring-which is going to pop Bruyneel's name ---so LA by now knows his only way out is to deny everything to the point that he's willing to acknowledge the systematic doping indeed was part of the team training-but he never took part of it, and was organized/controlled by the Hog... so then the hog is likely to bite back and maybe come up with "hard evidence" of lance himself doping-as a last desperate resource to get him hurt too...

bottom line: this is serious "Gourmet" sh!t

yeah this could get real dirty and smelly if those 2 fall out. Gonna hurt JB more than LA aswell as most of texas wont give a **** what LA did or didn't do he's a demi god there, but europe will not be a welcoming place to JB

 

[VeloCity]

Man, what is it with you guys and doping/LA??
Who cares?? All I see are a bunch of bitter ex-Posties who got caught and want to spread the love around. Did LA dope? Well, he's never tested positive in any controls, so innocent until proven guilty. And really, in the end, does it matter? No, not one bit. Every one of his past rivals has been caught or implicated in doping, so its not like that even if he was doping, he was doing anything they weren't doing. He was just smarter.
Oh but wait, LA wasn't a nice guy, he was mean Again, so what? Want a list of other mean TDF winners since the race began?
This is all a huge waste of time and money. Let 'em dope. "Cheating" in sports is all a huge grey area anyway. If a person has more money than you and can afford a better coach, is that cheating? Whats racing "clean" anyways? Crazy how many pro riders all have "asthma"
Am I a LA fan? No way, hes kind of like white trash from Texas gone racing. How many kids with different mothers does he have? But again, so what. I still like watching the guy race. I see lots of guys who hate LA love Jan, but he doped, isn't that kind of hypocritical? Maybe just a bit??
The Powers That Be should just stop bothering with it all, and let them go wild. You will never, ever stop doping/cheating. Even if you had a "clean" peloton, there will always be someone willing to do what it takes to win, regardless. So then the playing field is unequal once again.
If you have doctor supervision, and do it right, under controlled coditions, doping isn't going to hurt you any more than many of the other substances we get exposed to, so lets legalize doping, and let the pros take it safely.
So there. Hows that?
Flame away. I can handle it

You don't have a clue what this is all about, do you?

 

[Cerberus]

Dude, you wanna go down with Uniballer when he burns, wow that is real top class dedicated fanboy stuff there. Way to go man. you need a hand lighting it

I don't know Macht Schnells posting history, but are we sure he's serious? It looks like a joke to me, perhaps I just can't accept the existence of that level of genuine dumb, but I think he's either joking, or failing that trolling.

 

[Tubeless]

really? how many 16 year old boys in high school football programs committed suicide last year as a side effect of their steroid abuse in order to "be the best"?

how many in all the other youth sports programs?

There's also evidence that PEDs may in fact cause cancer - an ironic connection here for the fanboys. Since the doping practice is done in secret, there are no formal studies of doped athletes getting sick - but lots of anecdotal cases. Armstrong's own testicular cancer could have been caused by overdosing testosterone.

But let's not use LA as the example since "he's never tested positive". Here's one fellow cyclist that's a proven repeat doper - and a compatriot testicular cancer survivor. Want to bet he also took testosterone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niklas_Axelsson

There are formal studies done amongst cancer patients who've taken EPO under doctors' care that suggest serious side effects. Anyone who's seen the photo of strange veins Hincapie's legs may draw a connection here.

http://lymphoma.about.com/b/2008/07/22/erythropoetin-epo-is-not-so-safe-in-cancer.htm

There are many reported cases of athletes dying after suspected overdoses of EPO.

It's incredible what pro athletes are willing to do to their bodies to win fame and fortune. This is the reason why most PEDs are prescription drugs, restricted to be taken for real disease under doctor's supervision - and in controlled amounts. Those who claim that transfusing your own blood yourself is safe, or who say that taking a EPO shot is as safe as drinking OJ, don't know what they're talking about. FDA exists to protect the public and this investigation is right along their mandate to discover & break illegal use of PEDs that not only harm the abusers, but set a terrible example for the young athletes out there.

The top pros can afford to pay doctors to help with the safety aspect - but what about those cyclists who aspire to become top pros? Level playing field? Not.

 

[Cobblestones]

Ok, serious question here:

When I read the NYT interview, three companies came up.

1) US Postal services, which was basically the title sponsor
2) Tailwind Sports, which is the team and therefore the employer of the riders
3) Capital Sports & Entertainment which was what?

Can anyone explain the sentence:

“We took over running the team in ’04,” Armstrong said of the Austin-based company Capital Sports & Entertainment, which, he said, gained equity in the team in 2007.

ETA: to clarify, I don't quite get who was taking over the running of which company to achieve what?

 

[Benotti69]

Ok, serious question here:

When I read the NYT interview, three companies came up.

1) US Postal services, which was basically the title sponsor
2) Tailwind Sports, which is the team and therefore the employer of the riders
3) Capital Sports & Entertainment which was what?

Bob Stapleton's sports agency, which i think LA has a part ownership in(istbc) and BS is LA's agent.

 

[Benotti69]

Ok, serious question here:

Can anyone explain the sentence:

"“We took over running the team in ’04,” Armstrong said of the Austin-based company Capital Sports & Entertainment, which, he said, gained equity in the team in 2007."

ETA: to clarify, I don't quite get who was taking over the running of which company to achieve what?

yeah Tailwind was wound up after USPS stopped backing LA/JB so Bob and Lance and Hog(i presume)took over running the team, when Discovery came on board ...as for equity not too sure about that bit...

 

[Cobblestones]

Bob Stapleton's sports agency, which i think LA has a part ownership in(istbc) and BS is LA's agent.

Ok, after reading the ESPN article, I think I get it.

Up to about 2004 or 2007 (details are unclear) there was only USPS and Tailwind. According to LA, he did not have any ownership in Tailwind at that time. Around 2004 or 2007, the then Tailwind ownership was diluted by adding a few more owners (such as CS&E of which LA is a stakeholder), so through CS&E LA became part owner in Tailwind. Also, apparently, CS&E put itself in between USPS (Discovery at later times) and Tailwind, by taking over the financial management of Tailwind.

Is that about right?

And btw. the Bob Stapleton is not the same as the HTC/Columbia Stapleton, is he?

ETA: spooky, the ESPN story just changed... dates changed... statements are different now, more incriminatory wrt. LA.

 

[Benotti69]

Ok, after reading the ESPN article, I think I get it.

Up to about 2004 or 2007 (details are unclear) there was only USPS and Tailwind. According to LA, he did not have any ownership in Tailwind at that time. Around 2004 or 2007, the then Tailwind ownership was diluted by adding a few more owners (such as CS&E of which LA is a stakeholder), so through CS&E LA became part owner in Tailwind. Also, apparently, CS&E put itself in between USPS (Discovery at later times) and Tailwind, by taking over the financial management of Tailwind.

Is that about right?

i think so

And btw. the Bob Stapleton is not the same as the HTC/Columbia Stapleton, is he?

How many Bob Stapleton's can there be in cycling?

 

[Cobblestones]

i think so



How many Bob Stapleton's can there be in cycling?

I think there's two Stapletons. Not sure about their first names.

ETA: The ESPN article now calls him Bill Stapleton. So I think he's a different guy.

 

[Anonymous]

Im a bit confused about tailwind and the whole sorry mess..
This article has it formed in 2001 after formerly being called Disson Furst & Partners and Disson left to do his own thing, which in turn incorporated montgomery sports.

In 2000 they raised a $1billion private equity fund.. wonder if lance had any stake in that..

Ownership of postal/disco etc seems something like this

pre 99 - Montgomery Securities
99 - Thomas Wiesel partners (incorporateing montgomery sports)
01 - Tailwind formed from partners from Disson Furst and Wiesel with Wiesel as the biggest investor.
04 - (possibly earlier) management of the team became joint between tailwind and Capital Sports entertainment.. "Tailwind has partnered with Capital Sports & Entertainment (CSE), an experiential event and sports marketing firm based in Austin, Texas to manage the sponsorship and operations of the team." - it was certainly joint by 2005 according to this article - this article also says discovery was jointly owned
edit: this article shows joint ownershipas far back as 2004 - postal days
07 - Tailwind ceases to have ownership in the team and CS&E take over the equity in the team and sole control.


interestingly

"Tailwind Sports was registered with the California Secretary of State as being located in 2002 at the same Austin, Texas address as the Armstrong-linked company Capital Sports and Entertainment. Tailwind Sports' registered location has also been used as a mailing address for Armstrong's Austin bicycle shop, Mello Johnny's. According to the 2002 registration"

+Now, if mellow johnys were using the tailwind location as a registered address in 2002, you have to assume that lances shareholding goes back as far as 2002? [dim]

oh if you really want to read lance 2005 deposition its here

the he is asked could he have owned part of tailwind in 2001 and his response was just maybe, possibly, that leaves me in no doubt he owned them during the postal years. .You cant possibly in 2005 under oath be 6 years out on when you got a share of a company.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok, after reading the ESPN article, I think I get it.

Up to about 2004 or 2007 (details are unclear) there was only USPS and Tailwind. According to LA, he did not have any ownership in Tailwind at that time. Around 2004 or 2007, the then Tailwind ownership was diluted by adding a few more owners (such as CS&E of which LA is a stakeholder), so through CS&E LA became part owner in Tailwind. Also, apparently, CS&E put itself in between USPS (Discovery at later times) and Tailwind, by taking over the financial management of Tailwind.

Is that about right?

And btw. the Bob Stapleton is not the same as the HTC/Columbia Stapleton, is he?

ETA: spooky, the ESPN story just changed... dates changed... statements are different now, more incriminatory wrt. LA.

there are articles indicating by 2005 discovery was jointly managed by tailwind and CSE. Lance by 2005 already owned 10%+ of tailwind. The article ive found merely said it was a partnership, maybe one now owns the other.. who knows, its a mess - This article from 2005 has them both involved

 

[Cobblestones]

Im a bit confused about tailwind and the whole sorry mess..
This article has it formed in 2001 after formerly being called Disson Furst & Partners and Disson left to do his own thing, which in turn incorporated montgomery sports.

In 2000 they raised a $1billion private equity fund.. wonder if lance had any stake in that..

The history seems something like this

pre 99 - Montgomery Securities
99 - Thomas Wiesel partners (incorporateing montgomery sports)
01 - Tailwind formed from partners from Disson Furst and Wiesel with Wiesel as the biggest investor.
?? - management of the team became joint between tailwind and Capital Sports entertainment.. "Tailwind has partnered with Capital Sports & Entertainment (CSE), an experiential event and sports marketing firm based in Austin, Texas to manage the sponsorship and operations of the team." - it was certainly joint by 2007 but i think before, maybe by about 2005/6


interestingly

"Tailwind Sports was registered with the California Secretary of State as being located in 2002 at the same Austin, Texas address as the Armstrong-linked company Capital Sports and Entertainment. Tailwind Sports' registered location has also been used as a mailing address for Armstrong's Austin bicycle shop, Mello Johnny's. According to the 2002 registration"

oh if you really want to read lance 2005 deposition its here

the he is asked could he have owned part of tailwind in 2001 and his response was just maybe, possibly, that leaves me in no doubt he owned them during the postal years. .You cant possibly in 2005 under oath be 6 years out on when you got a share of a company.

Wow, just wow. The plot thickens (definitely beyond 50% crit).

 

[Anonymous]

Wow, just wow. The plot thickens (definitely beyond 50% crit).

edited my post.. tailwind/cse goes back to at least 2004

Im fairly convinced from the mellow johnys stuff etc that lance has had a share in tailwind since 2002.

 

[Cobblestones]

Ok, let me take another stab at it.

Around 2001/2002 there was Tailwind and USPS. In his testimony LA did not rule out that he had a stake in Tailwind at that time. Interestingly, Tailwind's address was in Austin Texas, same address as CS&E, an LA company (which we have no indication yet that it was involved with Tailwind at that time) and Mellow Johnnys (thanks TSF).

Around 2004, latest 2005 (but maybe as early as 2001 or 2002), both LA and CS&E (partly owned by LA) take part ownership in Tailwind. This has been confirmed by LA in his testimony. CS&E also takes over management of Tailwind and puts itself between the sponsor (USPS/Discovery) and the actual team which is Tailwind.

Tailwind eventually ceases to exist. (CS&E still exists, I believe).

Bill Stapleton (not to be confused with Bob Stapleton) has his fingers in both CS&E and Tailwind pretty much from the beginning. But since he's not Bob, we don't really care.

Ok, I think that's pretty much it.

Now contrast this with what LA said today in the interview.

ETA: thanks to all of you who helped getting this straight.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok, let me take another stab at it.

Around 2001/2002 there was Tailwind and USPS. In his testimony LA did not rule out that he had a stake in Tailwind at that time. Interestingly, Tailwind's address was in Austin Texas, same address as CS&E, an LA company (which we have no indication yet that it was involved with Tailwind at that time)..

and was also in 2002 mellow johnnys registered address :S

we certainly know that postal was jointly owned by tailwind and cs&e on 25th september 2004, so cs&e definately owned postal if only for a year.

edit: it looks like the claim is from 2004 they were owned by tailwind and "managed" by cs&e, and in 2007 tailwind ceased ownership and Cs&e took over financial stake in the team..

Its a mess and im confused.

 

[dbrower]

didn't one of the links about the subpoenas mentioned the grand jury wont be public ? if so i guess that's why a reference to anonymity.

but i have a general question, can someone explain the us law on grand jury ?

does it mean a subpoenaed witness wont be interviewed by the prosecutors/investigators prior to the commencement of a grand jury hearing ?

does the fact that a witness (like hamilton) agreeing to cooperate only if subpoenaed trying to limit the number of questions he/she will be asked and thus to a degree try to limit/impede the full investigation ?

I have been on a grand jury. The existence of testmony by any witness need not be revealed, unless needed in any indictment. It's secret, to protect both witnesses and anyone mentioned that does not get indicted.

The witness may or may not be interviewed before giving testimony before the jurors. A cooperating witness will may or may not do so; this is at the discretion of the prosecuting attorney and/or the investigators.

Any testimony given is supposed to be confidental; leaks of grand jury testimony are taken seriously, and are investigated and prosecuted on their own.

So, given parties A B C D E and F, if A B C D and E say X happened with F present, and F says he wasn't there and has no knowledge of X happening, then F may be caught in a perjury squeeze. This is one reason to keep the testimony of A-E secret. Whether A B C D and E need to testify in open court, or get named in the indctment are tactcal choices by the prosecutors.

-dB

 

[Cobblestones]

and was also in 2002 mellow johnnys registered address :S

we certainly know that postal was jointly owned by tailwind and cs&e on 25th september 2004, so cs&e definately owned postal if only for a year.

Be careful how you call stuff. Yes, we used to call the team 'Postal', but that was really just the name of the title sponsor. I think for clarity, we should call the team 'Tailwind', the sponsor 'Postal', and CS&E just CS&E.

 

[tubularglue]

\

 

[powerste]

Ok, let me take another stab at it.

Around 2001/2002 there was Tailwind and USPS. In his testimony LA did not rule out that he had a stake in Tailwind at that time. Interestingly, Tailwind's address was in Austin Texas, same address as CS&E, an LA company (which we have no indication yet that it was involved with Tailwind at that time).

Around 2004, latest 2005 (but maybe as early as 2001 or 2002), both LA and CS&E (partly owned by LA) take part ownership in Tailwind. CS&E also takes over management of Tailwind and puts itself between the sponsor (USPS/Discovery) and the actual team which is Tailwind.

Tailwind eventually ceases to exist. (CS&E still exists, I believe).

Bill Stapleton (not to be confused with Bob Stapleton) has his fingers in both CS&E and Tailwind pretty much from the beginning. But since he's not Bob, we don't really care.

Ok, I think that's pretty much it.

Now contrast this with what LA said today in the interview.

I wish Polish would please come over here and post the whole truth per his sources. Then we would all know what's really going on!