Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[James M]

Watching a fully seated pogi ride away from Vingo who was sprinting out of the saddle, was quite possibly the craziest thing I've ever seen in cycling. I might give the edge to a 100km attack in WC tho

The WC, yes. You also have this + Roubaix, historically incredible, considering he’s the best climber of all time. MSR was also unprecedented and ridiculous to me especially based upon the shere power in numbers alone..

Honestly, it’s getting hard to rate them from 2024 the current version of him. There are so many at such a rate that it seems like a new norm and absolutely ridiculous.

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/K1qoAI1Y3OQ?feature=share

 

[Cookster15]

Seated not even close to sustain the same pace, who on earth woulda thought...Its not like we havent seen this over and over by now. from current version of Pogi. ''close duel'' Its night and day in reality.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1933538729873793134

View: https://x.com/faustocoppi60/status/1933538729873793134

This reminded me of when Pogacar won the 2021 Tour on stage 8 to Le Grand-Bornand. Out of the saddle initally but then seated all the way to the finish putting over three minutes into Vingegaard. We always hear about Pog being briefly dropped on Ventoux that edition but what happened on stage 8 is brushed over.

Tour de France 2021 Stage 8 Highlights | Race Blown Apart In the Alps!

As I mentioned in the race thread today was quite a statement by Pogacar after the disappointment of his TT. But before we get too excited, lets see how he goes tomorrow on a much harder mountain test.

 

[yaf2]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1933580860323717419

View: https://x.com/festinaboy/status/1933580860323717419?t=ywFfiFa1rftQXYyH2a322A&s=19

Here is another proof. The *** rabo bank youtuber is being exposed

 

[James M]

This reminded me of when Pogacar won the 2021 Tour on stage 8 to Le Grand-Bornand. Out of the saddle initally but then seated all the way to the finish putting over three minutes into Vingegaard. We always hear about Pog being briefly dropped on Ventoux that edition but what happened on stage 8 is brushed over.

Tour de France 2021 Stage 8 Highlights | Race Blown Apart In the Alps!

As I mentioned in the race thread today was quite a statement by Pogacar after the disappointment of his TT. But before we get too excited, lets see how he goes tomorrow on a much harder mountain test.

Everything prior to 2024 is about as relevant today as me trying to 'date' Madison Beer when I DMed her on IG in 2021 and didn’t get a reply back. Aka, not relevant.

 

[Roku]

men lie. Women lie. Numbers don’t lie

And they spell disaster for Visma at Sacrifice

 

[scribers]

And they spell disaster for Visma at Sacrifice

Bro, I have a hard enough time with math without mixing grammar into it!

 

[Lequack]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1933546886549434778

View: https://x.com/MaillotjauneLCL/status/1933546886549434778

 

[scribers]

Punk phase pogi!

 

[James M]

So, Narváez dropped Jorgenson and everyone?Pog just needs a high pace up to his threshold for a short amount of time, as we've seen 100 times now. Everyone else is over their limit then, getting cooked, while he's cruising at the same tempo for the entire climb.

Very good showing by Narvaez. the first I've seen (plus MSR). To his defense, he's been unlucky with crashes earlier in the season, making it hard to gauge his level. But his role has been identified, ive been critical about his role before but this was impressive.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I wouldn't put all amateurs into one category. The difference of time to exhaustion would be huge between amateurs with thresholds of 3 w/kg and 4 w/kg. One could die after a few dozens of seconds and the other may last a few minutes (due to much slower lactate accumulation).

As we were saying.

 

[Monsi]

Talk about a bounce back. That was some demolition job by Pogi and UAE. Pogi was my favorite for the stage win but I did not expect him to put over a minute into Jonas. He's definitely on track for the TDF.

Also, shout out to Sivakov, Wellens, and Narvaez. Sivakov with the set up at the bottom of Domancy. Wellens with a crazy climbing performance, making it to the GC group on Mont Saxonnex and then keeping up with the Remco group for a long time. Then, Narvaez showing his value with that crazy leadout, dropping every GC contender but Pogi and Jonas. He's going to be really vital for the first week punchy stages.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

men lie. Women lie. Numbers don’t lie

After seeing the numbers on my ride today, I hope they do.

 

[Red Rick]

I wouldn't put all amateurs into one category. The difference of time to exhaustion would be huge between amateurs with thresholds of 3 w/kg and 4 w/kg. One could die after a few dozens of seconds and the other may last a few minutes (due to much slower lactate accumulation).

7w/kg for a few minutes reaches pro levels really fast.

VO2 max W/kg isn't gonna be 75% higher than FTP.

 

[Lorzenz08]

What a greet feeling is it the moment you see Pogi ride away. Like a bird flying off a tree.

 

[Lorzenz08]

Tomorrow is a big day. Short but constant HC climbs.

 

[scribers]

What a greet feeling is it the moment you see Pogi ride away. Like a bird flying off a tree.

It's particularly sweet since the 'I'm gone, I am dead' era.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

7w/kg for a few minutes reaches pro levels really fast.

VO2 max W/kg isn't gonna be 75% higher than FTP.

It was just an example illustrating that TTE relative differences can be much bigger than FTP differences. As for VO2max surely the difference vs FTP is more like max. 30%. 7 w/kg would be mostly performed by anaerobic capacity (so more or less a few dozen of seconds before being cooked). I didn't know it was so much, I thought more like 6 w/kg.

 

[Roku]

Bro, I have a hard enough time with math without mixing grammar into it!

Don't worry, I'll break down Pogi and Vingegaard chances of winning TdF under the Steiner Law:

You see, when you go one on one with another cyclist you have a 50% chance of winning. But Pogi is a genetic freak, so you have at best a 25% chance to beat him.

But if you add Remco to the mix you're chances of winning drastically go down, because Remco knows he can't beat Pogi, so he's not even going to try.

So here are the results: Vingegaard takes his 33% chance of winning in a three-way clash with Pogi and Remco minus his 25% chance in an individual confrontation and gets an 8%

But, if you look it from Tadej's perspective, he has a 66% chance of winning in the three-way clash plus a 75% chance in a one-on-one against Vingo, so he has a 141% chance of winning next TdF.

As stated, numbers don't lie, and they spell disaster for Visma.

Next day we'll explain Ayuso's abscence from TdF, Vuelta and any meaningful race in the rest of the season under the F*** Around / Find Out Law

 

[meat puppet]

Vo2max does not translate into "a" unique power output level. It's a measure of how much oxygen can be consumed at most, not an output.

It, or something very similar (in which case the apt term is vo2peak), can be triggered by a range of power/duration combinations as long as you exceed "the" threshold. At least theoretically.

These complications aside, the distance between what we colloquially dub the threshold and vo2peak will especially in amateurs be dictated by genetics and training status. There will be variance between individuals with similar vo2maxes and/or thresholds, whichever way you look into it, and in fact a lot of it.

The classic Coyle et al paper on the determinants of endurance helps to put thisand other things on the map. I think it's still maybe the best single reference to understand the nerdy side of cycling: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3403447/ (googling will find the PDF too).

From memory, riders with roughly similar vo2maxes had to hold 90% of it for as long as possible, and the worst did something like 12min and the best was more than 60min.

Soz for the off topic. As I said after the TT, there is no way Pog loses. Keep calm and celebrate this era of very exciting racing.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

But, if you look it from Tadej's perspective, he has a 66% chance of winning in the three-way clash plus a 75% chance in a one-on-one against Vingo, so he has a 141% chance of winning next TdF.

Mathematical legend!

 

[yaf2]

Guys yesterdays difference in level shouldn't be understated. 7.38 for pog and 6.94 for ving in such a short climb is somewhat concerning for jonas. Its 0.44w/kg difference and it has never been seen before between 1st and 2nd favourites in the tour. It means the tour audience will have to be thankful for what they saw last year coz this year tour has the potential to be even worse than 2014 nibali vs jean christophe peraud & pinot

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Vo2max does not translate into "a" unique power output level. It's a measure of how much oxygen can be consumed at most, not an output.

It, or something very similar (in which case the apt term is vo2peak), can be triggered by a range of power/duration combinations as long as you exceed "the" threshold. At least theoretically.

These complications aside, the distance between what we colloquially dub the threshold and vo2peak will especially in amateurs be dictated by genetics and training status. There will be variance between individuals with similar vo2maxes and/or thresholds, whichever way you look into it, and in fact a lot of it.

Yeah, VO2max is a maximum response to an effort. The problem with term VO2max power is that at this intensity a non-negligible part of power is generated in an anaerobic way (as shown by increasing lactate levels). When people say VO2max power I roughly assume something like 5-10 minute max. effort (probably closer to 10 minutes, for a 5-minute effort an anaerobic component is too big).

 

[fenns]

Guys yesterdays difference in level shouldn't be understated. 7.38 for pog and 6.94 for ving in such a short climb is somewhat concerning for jonas. Its 0.44w/kg difference and it has never been seen before between 1st and 2nd favourites in the tour. It means the tour audience will have to be thankful for what they saw last year coz this year tour has the potential to be even worse than 2014 nibali vs jean christophe peraud & pinot

if that happens unlike 2014 at least we'll know it's the best riders that are doing it

 

[QueenStagiaire]

This discussion about watts reminds me of a thought I often have about making all the pros ride at 7 watts/kg (standardized) on a Home trainer until exhaustion and establishing a ranking of how long they could follow Pogačar.