Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

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Netserk

Netserk

Apr 30, 2011
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Red Rick said:
I think the hilly section is harder, which I think is the key difference much more so than the cobbles.

I think cobbles are very overrated apart from Roubaix which needs 50km of the worst kind to create a crazy race.
Click to expand...
Imagine Kwaremont without the cobbles:
D20R3eQXcAA-5NY


Then you would have a climb that is quite easier than Cauberg. And you think it would still do the same damage?

As for comparing how hilly the different finales are, neither Paterberg nor Kwaremont are of the same calibre as Kapelmuur:

D3X2ydEW4AEk2G4


Profiles by https://twitter.com/gregariosdelujo
 
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tobydawq

tobydawq

Nov 16, 2013
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Netserk said:
Imagine Kwaremont without the cobbles:
D20R3eQXcAA-5NY


Then you would have a climb that is quite easier than Cauberg. And you think it would still do the same damage?

As for comparing how hilly the different finales are, neither Paterberg nor Kwaremont are of the same calibre as Kapelmuur:

D3X2ydEW4AEk2G4


Profiles by https://twitter.com/gregariosdelujo
Click to expand...

His "Cobbles being overrated" must not have been preceded by a very thorough analysis, I should think.
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

Feb 20, 2012
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Netserk said:
Imagine Kwaremont without the cobbles:
D20R3eQXcAA-5NY


Then you would have a climb that is quite easier than Cauberg. And you think it would still do the same damage?

As for comparing how hilly the different finales are, neither Paterberg nor Kwaremont are of the same calibre as Kapelmuur:

D3X2ydEW4AEk2G4


Profiles by https://twitter.com/gregariosdelujo
Click to expand...
Kapelmuur is one climb. The overall finale is much harder. And the Cauberg does plenty of damage deep in the Amstel. Yes cobbles are a bit of an equalizer for the heavier guys on the hills. Cobbles didn't save Boonen from getting his ass whooped by the mighty one day racer that is Alberto Contador in Benelux Tour.

It's the chaotic race for positioning and being hard to control that makes the race much more than the cobbles. Like how much cobbles did the 2021 WC have? A few very neatly placed kinderkopjes at the Moskesstraat?

tobydawq said:
His "Cobbles being overrated" must not have been preceded by a very thorough analysis, I should think.
Click to expand...
Your counterarguments on the other hand are too hard to read for me cause I haven't got my PhD yet.
 
tobydawq

tobydawq

Nov 16, 2013
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Red Rick said:
Kapelmuur is one climb. The overall finale is much harder. And the Cauberg does plenty of damage deep in the Amstel. Yes cobbles are a bit of an equalizer for the heavier guys on the hills. Cobbles didn't save Boonen from getting his ass whooped by the mighty one day racer that is Alberto Contador in Benelux Tour.

It's the chaotic race for positioning and being hard to control that makes the race much more than the cobbles. Like how much cobbles did the 2021 WC have? A few very neatly placed kinderkopjes at the Moskesstraat?


Your counterarguments on the other hand are too hard to read for me cause I haven't got my PhD yet.
Click to expand...

Everybody knows cobbles are hard to ride and make plenty of selection, yet you come in and say that, nah, that can't be because of them, and expect people to agree with you/try particularly hard to prove you wrong? I think I'll pass on that one.
 
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ice&fire

Jul 1, 2015
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tobydawq said:
Everybody knows cobbles are hard to ride and make plenty of selection, yet you come in and say that, nah, that can't be because of them, and expect people to agree with you/try particularly hard to prove you wrong? I think I'll pass on that one.
Click to expand...
There's Ronde cobbles and there's Roubaix cobbles. What would be the Roubaix star rating for the roughest cobbles in the Ronde? Maybe 3-star?
 
I

ice&fire

Jul 1, 2015
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sir fly said:
Incline them and the stars rise.
Roubaix is Roubaix, De Ronde is De Ronde.
Click to expand...
Incline them and the Ardennes specialists start getting a chance if they get over their fear of crashes risking their goals in late April. I see no reason for Pog not to do better than Valverde '19 or Alaphilippe '20 (if he hadn't crashed out, obviously)
 
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sir fly

sir fly

Feb 24, 2014
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ice&fire said:
Incline them and the Ardennes specialists start getting a chance if they get over their fear of crashes risking their goals in late April. I see no reason for Pog not to do better than Valverde '19 or Alaphilippe '20 (if he hadn't crashed out, obviously)
Click to expand...
That's exactly the point.
They can mix in Flanders, but not at Roubaix.
 
tobydawq

tobydawq

Nov 16, 2013
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ice&fire said:
Because Flanders is one the biggest races of the season and Pog has a chance to do well?
Click to expand...

Sure but is it Van der Poel's job to account for the motives of all other participants, when he has no additional insight on the matter than the interviewer does?
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

Feb 20, 2012
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sir fly said:
That's exactly the point.
They can mix in Flanders, but not at Roubaix.
Click to expand...
We don't know if they can't mix at Roubaix.

Thing is a lot of potentially good one day racers don't race Roubaix cause they have much lower variance targets.

In terms of rider type, Roubaix is literally the lowest dominator race. A pure cobbled specialist is the lowest value specialist in the peloton.
 
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ice&fire

Jul 1, 2015
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tobydawq said:
Sure but is it Van der Poel's job to account for the motives of all other participants, when he has no additional insight on the matter than the interviewer does?
Click to expand...
No, but he can politely educate interviewers who ask silly questions, such as why Flanders and no other cobbled races (he's a big rider and wants to win big races, road surface is irrelevant), and why not Roubaix, then (he's a strong contender in Flanders but not so much in Roubaix).
 
Peyroteo94

Peyroteo94

Mar 20, 2022
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@Red Rick I'm getting your point but I can't fully agree with you. I think you are correct when you say differences are made mostly because of slopes and narrow roads but cobbles make you slower and more tired in the climb. So the difference between a rider who climbs at 15 km/h and other who climbs at 14 km/h in a cobbled climb will be bigger than a rider who climbs at 19 km/h to other who climbs at 18 km/h in a asphalt climb.
Never forget why pure time trialists who are also good gc riders, can put way more minutes in climbers when they ride on 3/4% slopes than a flat road.
 
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Velolover2

Velolover2

Apr 12, 2015
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Most likely scenario for a Pog win?

The cobbles specialists unsuccessfully try to drop him on Kwaremont. He stays with a handful of the strongest riders.

Pog drops them on Paterberg and time trials all the way to the finish. The chasers behind him is too tired and selfish to cooperate.
 
Netserk

Netserk

Apr 30, 2011
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Velolover2 said:
Most likely scenario for a Pog win?

The cobbles specialists unsuccessfully try to drop him on Kwaremont. He stays with a handful of the strongest riders.

Pog drops them on Paterberg and time trials all the way to the finish. The chasers behind him is too tired and selfish to cooperate.
Click to expand...
Terpstra 2018 move is more likely. He ain't gonna drop 'em on Paterberg.
 
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