Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Charlyghoul]

Merckx winning 7 MSR shows how cycling was a "joke" 50 years ago. In what world would a rider who isn't a sprinter (despite being fast) win 7 MSR in today's era specially when (IIRC) Cipressa wasn't in the race?

the difference is Merckx could ride away like Pog but he could also out-sprint all but the purest of sprinters, Pogacar hasn’t got that ability.

 

[Charlyghoul]

An all round champion like Coppi or Merckx can climb, sprint with the best, crush everyone in the time trials, and drop like a stone down a mountain when they need to.
Complete riders , pure champions of the bike

Put Coppi or Merckx in to any bicycle race in any conditions and they are the favourite, Pogacar is close, but he’s not quite on that level.

 

[BubbaChuck]

in prehistoric era maybe,today pog would simply run circles around them.you can have your sprint and descending.

 

[Red Lobster]

Pog is tied with Primoz, Pog doesn’t even have the most grand tours of Slovenia. How can he be the goat ?
Charly Gaul would dance away from him. Bahamontes will have time for a lick of his ice cream before letting Pog catch up

I was taking you seriously for a while but now I see that you are trolling.

 

[Charlyghoul]

I was taking you seriously for a while but now I see that you are trolling.

Only to reply to ‘Pog smokes everybody’ that wouldn’t happen.

 

[YavorD]

How you don't get? More nations in cycling mean more professional riders, more talent, etc. Talent is everywhere in the world, in Merckx's time, even if there was a Pogacar, he would never be able to be a pro because he came from a country without any relevance in cycling.
This is so obvious mate.
It's 10x harder to dominate a sport with 2000 pro riders than a sport with 200 pro riders. This is not an opinion, this is maths.

But the overall number of professional riders is irrelevant All that matters is the top level of 5 or 10 riders competing against each other.
If Pogacar wasn't here Vingegaard and Van Der Poel would have (even more) ridiculous palmares, and even if you've had 180 countries participating in the Tour, it wouldn't mean a thing.

As for the second part, yes, we have more countries, but it seems like the talent pool in some of the traditional countries is shrinking. Meaning that instead of 5 Italians on very high level, we have 1 Italian and 4 more from different countries. And yes, Pogacar may not have been a pro in the 70's, but that certain Belgian or Italian who is a monster talent and would have been a pro in the 70's isn't pro nowadays because cycling isn't as popular (in his country) or he has better things to do in his life. Heck, Merckx could have been software developer nowaday.
Point is, you don't necessarily gain talents in an absolute tern, You may as well just replace 2 Italians with a Dane and Slovenian

 

[Red Lobster]

But the overall number of professional riders is irrelevant All that matters is the top level of 5 or 10 riders competing against each other.
If Pogacar wasn't here Vingegaard and Van Der Poel would have (even more) ridiculous palmares, and even if you've had 180 countries participating in the Tour, it wouldn't mean a thing.

As for the second part, yes, we have more countries, but it seems like the talent pool in some of the traditional countries is shrinking. Meaning that instead of 5 Italians on very high level, we have 1 Italian and 4 more from different countries. And yes, Pogacar may not have been a pro in the 70's, but that certain Belgian or Italian who is a monster talent and would have been a pro in the 70's isn't pro nowadays because cycling isn't as popular (in his country) or he has better things to do in his life. Heck, Merckx could have been software developer nowaday.
Point is, you don't necessarily gain talents in an absolute tern, You may as well just replace 2 Italians with a Dane and Slovenian

On a micro level I agree; on the macro I don't think this swims.

 

[Berniece]

Merckx winning 7 MSR shows how cycling was a "joke" 50 years ago. In what world would a rider who isn't a sprinter (despite being fast) win 7 MSR in today's era specially when (IIRC) Cipressa wasn't in the race?

When you are the GOAT

 

[Red Lobster]

The amount of circular reasoning in this thread is remarkable.

 

[Charlyghoul]

On a micro level I agree; on the macro I don't think this swims.

It swims like a great white.
The level of the top few guys is the only thing relevant.
The level of the top two guys now is very high, of the rest it’s very poor

 

[Charlyghoul]

Pogacar was born within a couple of hours bike ride from Italy, he might as well be Italian in the context of the international argument.

Now if all of the top ten were Africans and Japanese and Europeans couldn’t get near them, then we could say there’s something in it.

 

[AmRacer]

He is racing in a weak era, especially in the tour, he has one competitor who can even finish in the top ten with regularity

That's because Pogi is the GOAT

 

[Red Lobster]

Pogacar was born within a couple of hours bike ride from Italy, he might as well be Italian in the context of the international argument.

Now if all of the top ten were Africans and Japanese and Europeans couldn’t get near them, then we could say there’s something in it.

Take a look at the Giro top 10 this year.

 

[Peyroteo94]

the difference is Merckx could ride away like Pog but he could also out-sprint all but the purest of sprinters, Pogacar hasn’t got that ability.

So he could drop them before Poggio on a flat road? Or on Turchino? In today's era that's impossible. Eheheh

 

[Charlyghoul]

Take a look at the Giro top 10 this year.

The tour has had winners from 4 countries in the last 10 years , the 50s had 5, the 80s had 5, the 90s had 5.
The tour is still dominated by Europeans.

Quite an international top ten in the giro, look at the 1995 top ten, Colombians, Russians, Latvians

Look at the 1985 top ten , Americans, Swedish, Australians

The only real difference is that the winners in 85 and 95 were considerably better

 

[Peyroteo94]

The tour has had winners from 4 countries in the last 10 years , the 50s had 5, the 80s had 5, the 90s had 5.
The tour is still dominated by Europeans.

Quite an international top ten in the giro, look at the 1995 top ten, Colombians, Russians, Latvians

Look at the 1985 top ten , Americans, Swedish, Australians

The only real difference is that the winners in 85 and 95 were considerably better

I praise your determination. Even being wrong, you fight for what your believe.

 

[Charlyghoul]

I praise your determination. Even being wrong, you fight for what your believe.

It just shows that more international participation doesn’t equal better riders, how is it wrong

 

[Peyroteo94]

It just shows that more international participation doesn’t equal better riders, how is it wrong

Yes, it means. This is not an opinion, it's common sense mate.
Talent is everywhere so the level is obviously higher when more nations have their top riders as professional riders.
Again, this is common sense.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Yes, it means. This is not an opinion, it's common sense mate.
Talent is everywhere so the level is obviously higher when more nations have their top riders as professional riders.
Again, this is common sense.

There’s been three non-European tour winners, and one non -European to win the Vuelta or Giro and also win the Tour.

Flanders has never had a non -European winner.
liege has one
Lombardy has one
Australia is the only country outside Europe to win a San Remo or a Roubaix…

The top end of the sport is dominated by European riders.
If talent is everywhere how do you explain this.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Amstel has 1 (Australia again)
Brabantse has 1
Strade has 0

I think this international thing must be a joke or some kind of delusion on your part.
These international riders have really shook things up since Merckx time no?

 

[Berniece]

So he could drop them before Poggio on a flat road? Or on Turchino? In today's era that's impossible. Eheheh

Literally what Evenepoel has done multiple times already

 

[Charlyghoul]

E-3 saxo has 1(Australia, again)

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Just want to say thank goodness for that ignore button.

 

[Peyroteo94]

There’s been three non-European tour winners, and one non -European to win the Vuelta or Giro and also win the Tour.

Flanders has never had a non -European winner.
liege has one
Lombardy has one
Australia is the only country outside Europe to win a San Remo or a Roubaix…

The top end of the sport is dominated by European riders.
If talent is everywhere how do you explain this.

Paris - Roubaix 1973 One day race results

Paris - Roubaix 1973 was won by Eddy Merckx before Walter Godefroot and Roger Rosiers.

www.procyclingstats.com

Paris - Roubaix 1974 One day race results

Paris - Roubaix 1974 was won by Roger De Vlaeminck before Francesco Moser and Marc Demeyer.

www.procyclingstats.com

Paris - Roubaix 1975 One day race results

Paris - Roubaix 1975 was won by Roger De Vlaeminck before Eddy Merckx and André Dierickx.

www.procyclingstats.com

What is your opinion about these results (80% of riders are belgians)?

 

[Shortcut]

I am so happy Pogi is dominating in strongest era ever. We can see GOAT at work, than Jonas second best climber ever, then Remco greatest TT rider ever, then MvDP cobble classics GOAT and Primoz (the best GC guy ever without Tour). All this great riders have something in common-they are scared of Pogacar. Poor WVA (a.k.a. modern but a still much stronger than Merckx) can't do much in this era.