Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Oldermanish]

I've shared my view on this before. First of all, he didn't dominate juniors or U23. He won L'Avenir with a normal/modest gap over Arensman, who was over a year younger, without even winning a stage. Big talent but nothing really out of the ordinary, especially after Bernal. The most interesting period was between 2019 and the start of the 2020 TDF. This was the moment to wonder and ponder about what he was capable of. He won California vs Higuita, he won Algarve early in the season... nice. Had a very good result in Itzulia, 6th iirc. Very promising, but still, Bernal was winning the TDF right about then, and he was only a year and a few months older. Then 3 stages in the Vuelta and he secured his podium spot in one of the last stages... Ok, how far can this guy go? Hype picked up along 2019.

So unlike other guys, the hype picked up late, because he was never seen as a potential worldbeater until mid 2019. And roughly a year later, he was an actual worldbeater with a WTF exposition on PdBF. He wins when and where he starts and feels like it. He can TT, he can climb, he can do hilly monuments, he can do cobbled monuments. Ok, so we've established al that. What's left to talk about?

Furthermore, he comes from a country where cycling isn't the most important religion. Newspapers aren't watching him like a hawk. He can still pick his nose without having ten cameras in his face. And even if local newspapers publish something, none of us know about it, and there aren't enough crazed/hyped Slovenian fans to bring/translate it here.

We could talk about how many minutes he'll be leading with after the first mountain stage. How much do you think? 5? 8? Interesting discussion.

On social media i've noticed more resentment lately though. He wins a bit too easily, and no amount of babyfaced cuteness can fight the inevitable grudge that people can hold against someone for whom success comes that easily. When another young rider was thought to become a dominator, people didn't need much to pile on the hate. Now it appears he has his own demons to fight, and general perception has started to come round. While Pogacar seems to be subject to the opposite. This is just my personal impression, from social media (especially twitter).

And back to the reason it's easy for new and casual fans to find him interesting and others to feel it's too easy. Almost none of those people have a clue as to how much work it takes to be there and those that have a faint idea may assume the rider must show the angry edge of an overworked coalminer. Not everyone hates the depth of pain it takes to race successfully and Tadej appears to be one of them. Just because he smiles and doesn't throw tantrums doesn't mean he misses out on every down moment. He just does not dwell on them apparently. Part killer and part youthful upstart. Hopefully it remains real in a very sc

 

[Gargamel35]

There was more to Schumacher than that. Hamilton won just as much but was never praised like that by public. The same with Rossi. Márquez wins just as much but it's just not the same in regards to pubic. Still it's a bit better compared to Hamilton.

For Tadej i would say he is still too young. And he likely needs to be careful on which fans he attracts in the future. So far he didn't do anything "wrong". And his options are hence still open. Last thing he needs to do is a guess try to "force" the public to like him. Just continue to win everything or more likely a couple of soul crushing defeats and to bounce back after. This should soften him up. If he stays graceful and humble in both win and defeat.

On the other hand if he just wants to win the Tour each year. Such Tour winners tend to be assholes. Hard to overcome that. I guess his mentor and role model Rogla could help him with that.

We'll see.

There is another thing with Schumacher. He left worlds best team (Benneton)¸and went to very bad one at the time (Ferrari). He worked hard with it and brought it up to ultimate winners.
So he had his share of hard time.

 

[Gargamel35]

And back to the reason it's easy for new and casual fans to find him interesting and others to feel it's too easy. Almost none of those people have a clue as to how much work it takes to be there and those that have a faint idea may assume the rider must show the angry edge of an overworked coalminer. Not everyone hates the depth of pain it takes to race successfully and Tadej appears to be one of them. Just because he smiles and doesn't throw tantrums doesn't mean he misses out on every down moment. He just does not dwell on them apparently. Part killer and part youthful upstart. Hopefully it remains real in a very sc

Even though Roglič had a much longer way towards great success, he was not very popular at all. People didn't like his interviews (they were really bad), his style of racing, he never said much and he kept winning a lot. And he was from a small, unknown cycling country. He became much more popular after 2020 TdF when he got destroyed and took it like a man, even though he probably cried himself to sleep that day (and couple after). Since then, he kept winning and also kept crashing. Sigh. You have to love him for that. Why not, eh?

 

[CyclistAbi]

There is another thing with Schumacher. He left worlds best team (Benneton)¸and went to very bad one at the time (Ferrari). He worked hard with it and brought it up to ultimate winners.
So he had his share of hard time.

Exactly. If you want to be people champion there need to be some amount of trials and tribulations involved too. As this is how people live their lives. But obviously you have to still be the best at what you do.

Even though Roglič had a much longer way towards great success, he was not very popular at all. People didn't like his interviews (they were really bad), he never said much and he kept winning a lot. He became much more popular after 2020 TdF when he got destroyed and took it like a man, even though he probably cried himself to sleep that day (and couple after). Since then, he kept winning and also kept crashing. Sigh. You have to love him for that. Why not, eh?

He likely wept as a baby. Like i did too. I took it much less gracefully.

 

[Gargamel35]

Exactly. If you want to be people champion there need to be some amount of trials and tribulations involved too. As this is how people live their lives. But obviously you have to still be the best at what you do.



He likely wept as a baby. Like i did too. I took it much less gracefully.

The whole country was basically in shock.

 

[tobydawq]

On the other hand if he just wants to win the Tour each year. Such Tour winners tend to be assholes. Hard to overcome that. I guess his mentor and role model Rogla could help him with that.

Armstrong, sure. Who else is there?

 

[CyclistAbi]

Armstrong, sure. Who else is there?

More or less all of them. You do need to be a bit presumptions to say the least. To assume it's you that is the rightful owner of the Tour the France title.

 

[tobydawq]

More or less all of them. You do need to be a bit presumptions to say the least. To assume it's you that is the rightful owner of the Tour the France title.

But who else only went for the Tour title?

Induráin for example won two Giro titles during his Tour reign and is often referred to as the nicest person ever, so I really don't think your statement is much more than hot air.

Hinault was surely an *** but he didn't only aim for the Tour, either. Neither did Merckx.

 

[CyclistAbi]

The whole country was basically in shock.

But that is the local folklore. General cycling public should be rather immune to that. I guess.

In general i feel that it's basically 2 years we are talking about and it's normal for it to take a couple more. To build a dedicated fan base. Likely around half a decade is needed. To get things started.

 

[CyclistAbi]

But who else only went for the Tour title?

Induráin for example won two Giro titles during his Tour reign and is often referred to as the nicest person ever, so I really don't think your statement is much more than hot air.

Hinault was surely an *** but he didn't only aim for the Tour, either. Neither did Merckx.

Rogla is a nice person too. But take look at the Gino incident. There is still hope!

 

[CyclistAbi]

I read somewhere that Schumacher made Rosberg pee in the oil canister. It just takes a special person.

Anyway. What i guess was missing is. Look this Pogi guy is special. He needs to improve here and there and he will win TDF. For the sentiment to build up slowly and to cheer for it for happen. What happened instead is. Bang. Two time Tour winner. There was no foreplay. But you know what this can be fixed. As it's unreasonable to expect he will win next 10 Tour titles. If he can then OK that should likely do it to. For the Tour to be considered a foreplay and for him to need as much as 3 years to win 3 GTs per year.

 

[Extinction]

I think the reference was to the amateur team he rode for before turning pro (an eastern team as it was put).

 

[CyclistAbi]

Small country, an eastern amateur team ... i don't buy that.

In addition Slovenia is in central Europe.

P.S. There was a nice article a couple of days back on CN:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/how-slovenia-rose-to-the-top-of-worldtour-cycling/

 

[Extinction]

I've shared my view on this before. First of all, he didn't dominate juniors or U23. He won L'Avenir with a normal/modest gap over Arensman, who was over a year younger, without even winning a stage. Big talent but nothing really out of the ordinary, especially after Bernal. The most interesting period was between 2019 and the start of the 2020 TDF. This was the moment to wonder and ponder about what he was capable of. He won California vs Higuita, he won Algarve early in the season... nice. Had a very good result in Itzulia, 6th iirc. Very promising, but still, Bernal was winning the TDF right about then, and he was only a year and a few months older. Then 3 stages in the Vuelta and he secured his podium spot in one of the last stages... Ok, how far can this guy go? Hype picked up along 2019.

So unlike other guys, the hype picked up late, because he was never seen as a potential worldbeater until mid 2019. And roughly a year later, he was an actual worldbeater with a WTF exposition on PdBF. He wins when and where he starts and feels like it. He can TT, he can climb, he can do hilly monuments, he can do cobbled monuments. Ok, so we've established al that. What's left to talk about?

Furthermore, he comes from a country where cycling isn't the most important religion. Newspapers aren't watching him like a hawk. He can still pick his nose without having ten cameras in his face. And even if local newspapers publish something, none of us know about it, and there aren't enough crazed/hyped Slovenian fans to bring/translate it here.

We could talk about how many minutes he'll be leading with after the first mountain stage. How much do you think? 5? 8? Interesting discussion.

On social media i've noticed more resentment lately though. He wins a bit too easily, and no amount of babyfaced cuteness can fight the inevitable grudge that people can hold against someone for whom success comes that easily. When another young rider was thought to become a dominator, people didn't need much to pile on the hate. Now it appears he has his own demons to fight, and general perception has started to come round. While Pogacar seems to be subject to the opposite. This is just my personal impression, from social media (especially twitter).

The first I had heard about him was after winning 2019 Algarve and immediately recall thinking, rather intuitively, hmm, perhaps Evenepoel isn't the only lad about to cause a cycling earthquake. Then after California and, above all, the Vuelta, you could sense something was about to explode. The problem was, unlike Evenepoel, Tadej was not hyped as the next Merckx coming out of juniors and, not being Belgian, didn't garnish the international media attention of the cycling world. Nor did he yet discomfort Bernal as he eventually did. Neither was he the "flashy" swashbuckler of a MvDP, the 2.1 versione of Alaphilippe.

Then the bomb blew up at the 2020 Tour and it was of nuclear magnitude, whilst the Belgian, after a string of dominant stage race performances, albiet of decidedly less prestige, suddenly wound up in hospital with a broken pelvis from a dreadful fall at Lombardia. Still, Pogacar, given the feat he pulled off, didn't become as popular as one might have imagined. True, many didn't see it coming, many more may have felt envy towards him, the Roglic and Evenepoel fans first and foremost probably.

Even now, despite going on to Hinaultesque hights, he still remains less talked about than others. Had social media been around in Hinault's day, I bet the Frenchman would have been the most remarked about cyclist in the peleton, whereas Tadej simply is not. His nationality I think can only partially explain things. It's almost as if there is a large segment of casual cycling fans who haven't come to terms with the nature of the phenomenon or simply aren't willing to yet.

A foresee two possible future scenarios: either a worthy young challenger comes along to invite more discussion around him or else he continues to sweep up the floor and out of sheer amazement gains in popularity.

 

[Gargamel35]

The first I had heard about him was after winning 2019 Algarve and immediately recall thinking, rather intuitively, hmm, perhaps Evenepoel isn't the only lad about to cause a cycling earthquake. Then after California and, above all, the Vuelta, you could sense something was about to explode. The problem was, unlike Evenepoel, Tadej was not hyped as the next Merckx coming out of juniors and, not being Belgian, didn't garnish the international media attention of the cycling world. Nor did he yet discomfort Bernal as eventually did. Neither was he the "flashy" swashbuckler of a MvDP, the 2.1 versione of Alaphilippe.

Then the bomb blew up at the 2020 Tour and it was of nuclear magnitude, whilst the Belgian, after a string of dominant stage race performances, albiet of decidedly less prestige, suddenly wound up in hospital with a broken pelvis from a dreadful fall at Lombardia. Still, Pogacar, given the feat he pulled off, didn't become as popular as one might have imagined. True, many didn't see it coming, many more may have felt envy towards him, the Roglic and Evenepoel fans first and foremost probably.

Even now, despite going on to Hinaultesque hights, he still remains less talked about than others. Had social media been around in Hinault's day, I bet the Frenchman would have been the most remarked about cyclist in the peleton, whereas Tadej simply is not. His nationality I think can only partially explain things. It's almost as if there is a large segment of casual cycling fans who haven't come to terms with the nature of the phenomenon or simply aren't willing to yet.

A foresee two possible future scenarios: either a worthy young challenger comes along to invite more discussion around him or else he continues to sweep up the floor and out of sheer amazement gains in popularity.

In a sport where everybody are on limit and "everyone" know "everything" in terms of nutrition, preparation, money investment, equipment, there were very few individuals which outclassed everyone else day in and day out. Reason they managed to do that was usually in abusing some sort of laws and rules. Specially if they just showed up. I think this is the real elephant in the room. People don't want to invest their time and emotion in someone that is killing everyone else day in, day out, because they feel it can't be done without some sort of rule abuse.

I'm not saying it's true and it's totally unfair to Tadej but i believe people think like that.

 

[RedheadDane]

Errhm... are you guys having a discussion about why there's not much discussion about Pogacar?

That's pretty meta.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Another thing is that many on the forum detest the Armstrong era, but didn't mind the years that followed 2005.

Then Sky came along who were deemed to be if not as bad as Armstrong, then at least as boring.

Pogacar dethroned Sky at the Tour, but I feel like if he had actually blasted away from Froome and/or Thomas as rivals in 2020, rather than just easily riding away from bad back Bernal, that he'd have more genuine fans on this forum.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Errhm... are you guys having a discussion about why there's not much discussion about Pogacar?

That's pretty meta.

We have nothing else to talk about.

 

[RedheadDane]

We have nothing else to talk about.

Let's not get into a discussion about having a discussion about the apparent lack of discussion about Pogacar!

 

[Extinction]

In a sport where everybody are on limit and "everyone" know "everything" in terms of nutrition, preparation, money investment, equipment, there were very few individuals which outclassed everyone else day in and day out. Reason they managed to do that was usually in abusing some sort of laws and rules. Specially if they just showed up. I think this is the real elephant in the room. People don't want to invest their time and emotion in someone that is killing everyone else day in, day out, because they feel it can't be done without some sort of rule abuse.

I'm not saying it's true and it's totally unfair to Tadej but i believe people think like that.

Sure, but that means folks deny the possibility that a phenomenon gets born every once in a while (irrespective of what is perceived by many to go on behind the scenes in the group). In other sports this seems less the case than with cycling, when a dominant figure emerges a là Bolt, a là Federer, a là Phelps.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Let's not get into a discussion about having a discussion about the apparent lack of discussion about Pogacar!

If we do then it's probably best placed in Top Cat's 2022 . thread.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Let's not get into a discussion about having a discussion about the apparent lack of discussion about Pogacar!

You're into disc breaks, aren't you?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

The first I had heard about him was after winning 2019 Algarve and immediately recall thinking, rather intuitively, hmm, perhaps Evenepoel isn't the only lad about to cause a cycling earthquake. Then after California and, above all, the Vuelta, you could sense something was about to explode. The problem was, unlike Evenepoel, Tadej was not hyped as the next Merckx coming out of juniors and, not being Belgian, didn't garnish the international media attention of the cycling world. Nor did he yet discomfort Bernal as he eventually did. Neither was he the "flashy" swashbuckler of a MvDP, the 2.1 versione of Alaphilippe.

Then the bomb blew up at the 2020 Tour and it was of nuclear magnitude, whilst the Belgian, after a string of dominant stage race performances, albiet of decidedly less prestige, suddenly wound up in hospital with a broken pelvis from a dreadful fall at Lombardia. Still, Pogacar, given the feat he pulled off, didn't become as popular as one might have imagined. True, many didn't see it coming, many more may have felt envy towards him, the Roglic and Evenepoel fans first and foremost probably.

Even now, despite going on to Hinaultesque hights, he still remains less talked about than others. Had social media been around in Hinault's day, I bet the Frenchman would have been the most remarked about cyclist in the peleton, whereas Tadej simply is not. His nationality I think can only partially explain things. It's almost as if there is a large segment of casual cycling fans who haven't come to terms with the nature of the phenomenon or simply aren't willing to yet.

A foresee two possible future scenarios: either a worthy young challenger comes along to invite more discussion around him or else he continues to sweep up the floor and out of sheer amazement gains in popularity.

My main point was, that the period between him getting on the radar, and him confirming to be a ''monster'' on the bike, was very short. The period to wonder, to fantasise, to hypothesise, was extremely short. From his first big win in 2019 to winning the TDF in 2020 was less than a year. That means the period in which you could speculate as to where his limits lie, was extremely short, hence the period which would spur the most debate, was equally short. Now everybody knows what he can do, so there isn't much left to talk about in that regard.

As for Hinault, Hinault was a bit of an ass. He was a much more polarising figure than Pogacar who tries to assume the role of a perfect son-in-law. His outburst in RVV could show he might not be though. So who knows, that might change when he runs into more adversity which he has yet to do really. As long as he maintains his robot-like dominance, i don't think he is that interesting to discuss anymore. That doesn't mean it isn't impressive, but it doesn't stimulate discussion. I was fairly active in this topic in 2019, when it was still an unknown and interesting to speculate. His topic in another part of the forum, might thrive though, but i only dive into the depths of forum hell every once in a few months.

PS: just noticed this thread is considerably larger than the WvA thread, and even the MvdP thread, riders a bit older, but breaking through roughly the same year (2019).

 

[Extinction]

My main point was, that the period between him getting on the radar, and him confirming to be a ''monster'' on the bike, was very short. The period to wonder, to fantasise, to hypothesise, was extremely short. From his first big win in 2019 to winning the TDF in 2020 was less than a year. That means the period in which you could speculate as to where his limits lie, was extremely short, hence the period which would spur the most debate, was equally short. Now everybody knows what he can do, so there isn't much left to talk about in that regard.

As for Hinault, Hinault was a bit of an ass. He was a much more polarising figure than Pogacar who tries to assume the role of a perfect son-in-law. His outburst in RVV could show he might not be though. So who knows, that might change when he runs into more adversity which he has yet to do really. As long as he maintains his robot-like dominance, i don't think he is that interesting to discuss anymore. That doesn't mean it isn't impressive, but it doesn't stimulate discussion. I was fairly active in this topic in 2019, when it was still an unknown and interesting to speculate. His topic in another part of the forum, might thrive though, but i only dive into the depths of forum hell every once in a few months.

PS: just noticed this thread is considerably larger than the WvA thread, and even the MvdP thread, riders a bit older, but breaking through roughly the same year (2019).

His meteoric rise I too noted, but given that on this forum the GT winners and particularly Tour winners, like Froome and Contador (even when he was past his Tour winning days), were by far the most discussed riders, I thought the Pogacar thread would have been super discussed over the last weeks. And I think the relative longer length in comparison with WvA and MvDP is connected to the shear importance of winning the Tour. But as Tour winners go, his seems not so long (imagine if Remco were to win th e Tour, what would happen to his thread).

I agree with you that since he's just basically crushed it what else is there to add. Interesting point you raise about the "perfect son-in-law" persona. Apart from the minor tantrum he had after the Flanders finish, he does seem to be extremely level headed and effortlessly capable of keeping his emotions under control. It has been said that this is his great asset, namely that when the stress and presure begins to break others he remains unwaveringly as cool as a cucumber. At the same time he always stresses how he just likes to go full gas, which means he actually enjoys putting the hurt on himself (some do it because it's a necessary evil to win bike races, like Alaphilippe who says this sport is for masochists, whereas he actually seems to get a kick out of it); that he races just to "have fun," as if racing for three weeks around France in July were merely a kid's game. If it's not just all an act, it's truly remarkable. So, I guess we're either seeing a phenomenon the likes of which comes around once in a century or who knows what.

 

[RedheadDane]

My main point was, that the period between him getting on the radar, and him confirming to be a ''monster'' on the bike, was very short. The period to wonder, to fantasise, to hypothesise, was extremely short. From his first big win in 2019 to winning the TDF in 2020 was less than a year. That means the period in which you could speculate as to where his limits lie, was extremely short, hence the period which would spur the most debate, was equally short. Now everybody knows what he can do, so there isn't much left to talk about in that regard.

What do you consider his first big win in 2019? His first Vuelta stage win?