Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[yaco]

True, but Yates didn't also win in the same season Liege and Worlds, with such dominance and so young. I gaurantee you after such feats and having been beaten by Vingegaard at the Tour, Tadej, as I predicted, will strike back this year more motivated and ferocious than ever. Yet it's because there are such rivals that the level must become higher.

Yates had a good year when you consider he was the WT rider of the season.

 

[Big Doopie]

Omg. Rotflmao at all the Armstrong mentions/references.

Armstrong’s natural ability was likely personified by when he got dropped by semi-pros at the Tour of Gila a month before the TDF.

 

[Extinction]

Yates had a good year when you consider he was the WT rider of the season.

When, last year?

 

[CyclistAbi]

Pog won’t make the same mistake he did on Granon. He looks hungry and is in great shape. Plus Vingo has less support - Roglic was crucial and can WvA deliver again like he did in 2022? And we see Pog is in immense form already. Plus, UAE also look stronger.

Currently van Aert is scheduled for TA.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Please move all Yates debates to the Evenpoel thread.

 

[Unchained]

Omg. Rotflmao at all the Armstrong mentions/references.

Armstrong’s natural ability was likely personified by when he got dropped by semi-pros at the Tour of Gila a month before the TDF.

It's strange how when someone puts a stamp on something.. It's either reverb through the race world or people down play it..going solo for 35+k in first race says many things, I am ready, This is my style and team is important up to a point. Pog,Remco both race off the front way more than Lance did at early stages of his career.
Armstrong was not dominant at Redlands, Bisbee or Gila early on.. And he certainly didn't have ITT times like current crop and an obvious advantage, Roglic is not mentioned much and he can and probably will play a big roll with his team having multiple cards to play.
. and ..get a belly laugh from seeing Armstrong sitting in at races like the Ziggurat to flying up the highest mountains in France and the ability to track data just wasn't there.. Strava or Relieve, other social shared riding apps show greatness.. or not..
Just last year, tons of stuff written about science and volume training..think that current pros have way less secret training.. old schoolers like Valverde showed that they were cruising big kilometers up until the end.. I think year for year lots of current crop are better than Lance era..for a variety of reasons..
There are a few leftovers in the fridge.. Rui Costa being one.. like to see what his training logs looked like when he won the worlds vs Remco training diary..
Postcard is a great racer even if he stopped today.. and comparing any of new to Ulrich is also funny because none are chubby and Ulrich came into most seasons with a beer belly and would race it off by design.. Apples and oranges
Thinking of what Pog,Remix Tour of California would look like.. Yikes..

 

[Andy schleck]

Pog won’t make the same mistake he did on Granon. He looks hungry and is in great shape. Plus Vingo has less support - Roglic was crucial and can WvA deliver again like he did in 2022? And we see Pog is in immense form already. Plus, UAE also look stronger.

What mistakes pogi did on hautacam and in the last ITT?

 

[Cookster15]

What mistakes pogi did on hautacam and in the last ITT?

He never recovered from the Granon. This has been well covered here. Its only my opinion, but Pogi is by far the superior talent. 2022 TdF was an aberration he will learn from. Vingo and JV can do their best they won't have enough.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Exactly… We finally have what we always wanted to see:

Armstrong vs best version of Ullrich. Vingegaard is Armstrong 2.0 (better than best possible Armstrong), and Pogacar is best possible Ullrich.

Vingegaards TdF was won with 42+ kms/hr on average, Armstrong‘s 2005 TdF with 41+. Not-so-intimidating-looking Vingegaard is stronger, faster, better than Lance.

And Tadej (Tadej‘s thread here, still) is like 1997 and summer 2006 Ullrich: born to race his bike.

Pogacar‘s hair in Jaen Paraiso still came through his helmet. His tan was weak, skin little bit sun burned. He doesn‘t tan this well. But he‘s really good already.

Now I look forward to WVA vs MvdP vs Pogi on Strade Bianche. Imagine these three will arrive together in a three man lead group at the foot of the final, short but decisive, ascent. Then we‘ll see a mountain sprint which could not be any better.

A sprint which Pogi would love so much that he maybe even would line up to every Superprestige race in next winter. Because he can‘t get enough of sprinting against Wout and Mathieu.

If you’re going to make a bad comparison, Pogi = Contador, Vingo = Froome, Remco = Nibali.

 

[theyoungest]

He never recovered from the Granon. This has been well covered here. Its only my opinion, but Pogi is by far the superior talent. 2022 TdF was an aberration he will learn from. Vingo and JV can do their best they won't have enough.

For some people it's just difficult to accept that maybe Pogacar does have his weaknesses. Don't forget that in 2021 Vingegaard already dropped Pogacar on Ventoux. The harder the stage, and the longer the climbs, the better it is for Vingegaard. Even more so if the climbs are on altitude. And yeah, there he probably is a little better than Pogacar. No shame in that, you can't be the best at everything.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Likely that is the whole idea behind this move. For Pogi to get Jonas alone. And i guess for all involved to get some answers. Obviously everything geared towards the Tour. Would be interesting if JV team roster would change on such short notice. Or for Jonas to do TA instead. But highly likely nothing like that will happen and lets just enjoy this early spring campaign.

 

[Cookster15]

Don't forget that in 2021 Vingegaard already dropped Pogacar on Ventoux. The harder the stage, and the longer the climbs, the better it is for Vingegaard.

I didn't forget. Pogacar still won that Tour by 5 minutes That moment on Ventoux was only briefly. On the bold my opinion is the harder the stage/climbs suits Pogacar better when they are both on equal terms. That's because Pogacar is a greater talent as can be seen by any casual glance of their respective Palmeres.

 

[Extinction]

That's because Pogacar is a greater talent as can be seen by any casual glance of their respective Palmeres.

We don't have a large enough sample at the Tour yet to say this difinitively. Pogacar is so talented in so many areas, but his explosivity might actually come with a limitation on the multi-cols, really long Alpine climb days, to Vingegaard's unmached long-effort prowess we saw last year. Can he duplicate that over the next seasons? We shall see, but if he does, Pog can win as many week-long stage races and classics as he is capable and still could meet his match at the Tour de France.

The other strengths Vingegaard showed last Tour was his TTing and the way he took second on La Planche des Belles Filles, pushing Pog to his absolute maximum effort to marginally win and finishing ahead of Roglic, who should be favored on such steep, explosive uphill finishes.

So I'd be cautious about the "greater talent," because if say Pog wins a load of races over the ensuing years , but Vingo wins the next 3 ,4, 5 Tours then it's not obvious. Of course, Pogacar could also demonstrate invincible qualities at the next Tours, but we don't know because Vingegaard showed he is beatable and that the Dane at his best can drop Pog in the mountains.

 

[theyoungest]

I didn't forget. Pogacar still won that Tour by 5 minutes That moment on Ventoux was only briefly. On the bold my opinion is the harder the stage/climbs suits Pogacar better when they are both on equal terms. That's because Pogacar is a greater talent as can be seen by any casual glance of their respective Palmeres.

Most of those 5 minutes Pogacar gained on one stage. If you see Granon as an anomaly, you could argue the same for that stage.

Pogacar is probably the greater allround talent, that's true, but then again, 4 years ago Vingegaard still worked in a fish factory so he should have the bigger margin for improvement.

 

[Big Doopie]

If you’re going to make a bad comparison, Pogi = Contador, Vingo = Froome, Remco = Nibali.

And Contador = Chiappucci

lol. Remco already better than Nibali ever was. Pogi miles and miles ahead of contador/chiappucci. And Froome still well ahead of Vingo (who may ultimately match him). Froome won a crap load of other stage races.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Pogacar is probably the greater allround talent, that's true, but then again, 4 years ago Vingegaard still worked in a fish factory so he should have the bigger margin for improvement.

He was working at the fish factory five years ago because he was coming back from injury, not because he wasn't a cyclist, so I'm not sure that makes much of a difference these days.

 

[Extinction]

And Contador = Chiappucci

And how many GTs did Chiappucci win?

 

[theyoungest]

He was working at the fish factory five years ago because he was coming back from injury, not because he wasn't a cyclist, so I'm not sure that makes much of a difference these days.

What do you mean, because he was coming back from injury? I'm not saying he wasn't a cyclist, but his hours on the bike probably weren't close to what Pogacar was doing.

 

[Big Doopie]

And how many GTs did Chiappucci win?

As many as chiappucci as far I am concerned. At least chiappucci “won” a monument. Haha.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

What do you mean, because he was coming back from injury? I'm not saying he wasn't a cyclist, but his hours on the bike probably weren't close to what Pogacar was doing.

He crashed during the 2017 Tour des Fjords in Norway and broke his leg. While he was recovring, he took the job at the fish factory, where he worked for six hours a day and trained for about six hours afterwards (he probably trained less in the beginning).

 

[Extinction]

As many as chiappucci as far I am concerned. At least chiappucci “won” a monument. Haha.

As far as you're concerned means nothing, when on the road it's 9 to 0, for the record 7 to 0. Lemond couldn't even pronounce Chiappucci correctly in the 1990 Tour.

 

[Big Doopie]

As far as you're concerned means nothing, when on the road it's 9 to 0, for the record 7 to 0. Lemond couldn't even pronounce Chiappucci correctly in the 1990 Tour.

believe what you wish.

ah 1990. The cusp.

the 1990 worlds came up on my feed recently. A race that heralded a change.

 

[Oldermanish]

I didn't forget. Pogacar still won that Tour by 5 minutes That moment on Ventoux was only briefly. On the bold my opinion is the harder the stage/climbs suits Pogacar better when they are both on equal terms. That's because Pogacar is a greater talent as can be seen by any casual glance of their respective Palmeres.

All you need to see is how Pogi handled that gap on Ventoux; he started to chase and then looked back. He had his followers (the riders closest in GC) gapped and recognized that was not the time to waste energy. Vingo didn't count in the GC. It's a very speculative comparison.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

And Contador = Chiappucci

lol. Remco already better than Nibali ever was. Pogi miles and miles ahead of contador/chiappucci. And Froome still well ahead of Vingo (who may ultimately match him). Froome won a crap load of other stage races.

Tbf, I did say it was a bad comparison. But I’ll pass some time lightly defending it anyways.

Pogacar and Contador = GT prodigies who show panache and love to attack, while being good at climbs and ITTs. Pogi obviously better at classics by a lot, but let’s see if Pogi wins 9 GTs.

Vingo and Froome both exploded out of obscurity into dominance without the early promise of a Remco or Pogi.

Remco and Nibali was the biggest stretch but he’s the third of the big group who is more classics and less Gt oriented of the other two and considered less of a proven climber (although both Nibali in 2014 Tour and Remco in Vuelta would argue against that general assessment). Remco is better than Nibali at this point.

I know you have clinic based reasons to dislike Contador, but, honestly, I’m not sure how you can be so adamant about some in one direction and some in the other.

 

[perico]

True, but Yates didn't also win in the same season Liege and Worlds, with such dominance and so young. I gaurantee you after such feats and having been beaten by Vingegaard at the Tour, Tadej, as I predicted, will strike back this year more motivated and ferocious than ever. Yet it's because there are such rivals that the level must become higher.

True that Remco is better than Yates, but that doesn’t make it likely that Teddy is avoiding him. I doubt he cares about Remco at this point, who beat an injured Roglic and confidence deflated Mas. Now if Remco had beaten Roglic at 100%, then I think he would be worried, but that’s not the case.

Despite his defeat at the TDF last year, Pogacar is still the benchmark at this point. He’s not going to worry about a guy who is targeting the Giro. Right now, the only guys I could see him avoiding would be Jonás and/or Roglic (were he not also targeting the Giro) because he knows they can beat him. I mean… if he were worried about avoiding a rider, then Bernal would be on the same level as Remco at this point since they are both targeting the TDF, and Bernal was scheduled to start the Ruta del Sol until his last minute withdrawal.

We know the western Euro media and podcasters are obsessed with Remco because he’s a major talent and who knows how good he could be, but he’s not Pogacar yet, nor is he a direct threat.