Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Volderke]

Other than the MVDP hotel incident all the big guns for a course like that were there in Australia. The leaders could have gone in the move Remco went away in but held back conservatively expecting the race to come back to them and finding out it would not do so. Their fault for a tactical error.

exactly: the World's were partly won because of tactical errors of the main adversaries, while the Tour of Flanders was won without (stronger) adversaries making tactical errors, but just because Pogacar was stronger, and this with a MUCH higher normalized power than Remco in the World's.
So I consider Pogacar's Flanders win of a higher level, in terms of effort, than Remco's World's.

 

[vwpe]

remco vs pogacar is not even worth entertaining as in reality its not even a debate nor is it even REMOTELY CLOSE.

Remco isnt even close to vingegaard at GC level and even Roglic is better than him not to speak of Pogacar which is not even same universe,, first get to roglic and vingegaard level before even worth having a debate and hes not even close there yet...zzz

Anyway pogacar did yesterday is out of this world, beat a top form MVDP (one could argue the way it was raced was tailormade for pog even before last oude kvaremont expecially) but regardless his performance just cement him as yeah when its all said and done when he retire he will go down as the greatest of all time.

Beat a peak mvdp and wva and he made WVA look like a amateur in his own discipline

 

[Andy schleck]

remco vs pogacar is not even worth entertaining as in reality its not even a debate nor is it even REMOTELY CLOSE.

Remco isnt even close to vingegaard at GC level and even Roglic is better than him not to speak of Pogacar which is not even same universe,, first get to roglic and vingegaard level before even worth having a debate and hes not even close there yet...zzz

Anyway pogacar did yesterday is out of this world, beat a top form MVDP (one could argue the way it was raced was tailormade for pog even before last oude kvaremont expecially) but regardless his performance just cement him as yeah when its all said and done when he retire he will go down as the greatest of all time.

Beat a peak mvdp and wva and he made WVA look like a amateur in his own discipline

I agree with you except one thing. When pogacar retires, merckx will continue to be the greatest off all time.

 

[Miha81]

Greatness recognizes greatness. Merckx believes Pogacar has what it takes to become one of the best in the history of the sport.

"It was an XXL victory because he did it with panache and style," he told La Derniere Heure.

"When he goes for it, you can see he’s not thinking about the consequences. He doesn’t ask himself any questions."

"That’s real cycling, the kind that people love. Tadej is an exceptional rider, and if he wants, he’s going to have an enormous palmares."

"We can’t compare my generation and modern-day cycling, but it’s clear that Pogacar can win everything. Even Paris-Roubaix, which on paper, is the least suitable race for him."

 

[Elos Anjos]

I agree with you except one thing. When pogacar retires, merckx will continue to be the greatest off all time.

I also believe that Eddy Merckx palmares is unsurpassable. That is why I have been pointing out how the heir to Merckx does not necessarily entail that kind of palmares by any margin, but mostly an ability to win and race in all fields during all year, notwithstanding contemporary cycling being much more professionalized and scientific that in the 70s and 80s, which furthers more specialization and body types/types of races. That's what makes Pogacar incredible and the real heir to Merckx: not his achievements overall, but the range of his abilities and drive.

 

[vwpe]

I agree with you except one thing. When pogacar retires, merckx will continue to be the greatest off all time.

yes he might be depends on how much weight you put on the different eras and how competive they are.

i actually believe sanremo will be harder for pogacar to win than Roubaix.(duo to the downhill)

 

[Big Doopie]

What do you mean...?

that i agree with that sentiment.

 

[Pantani_lives]

Let's look objectively whether Pogacar is a candidate to be counted among the all-time greats.

If he falls off a cliff tomorrow and doesn't win anything for the rest of his life, then no. He's already in the top 30 though.

If you take his age into account it becomes a different matter. This is what the greatest riders achieved before turning twenty-five:

Merckx: 3 GTs, 7 monuments, 1 world title
Hinault: 3 GTs, 2 monuments
Bartali: 3 GTs, 3 monuments
Pogacar: 2 GTs, 4 monuments

And Pogacar only turns twenty-five in September, so he might yet add one or two before that.

Conclusion: Only Merckx had more major wins at that young age. Pogacar is on schedule to become one of the all-time greats. If he continues at his current level for another year or seven he might overtake Hinault as the second greatest ever.

 

[Red Rick]

Damnit I was just starting to recover from the tennis GOAT wars.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

yes he might be depends on how much weight you put on the different eras and how competive they are.

i actually believe sanremo will be harder for pogacar to win than Roubaix.(duo to the downhill)

Increased bike weight, older bike technology and more TT kilometers in Merckx's time favoured heavier and more powerful riders in stage races. Not only they managed climbs well (compared to ligher guys) but they could put a lot of time on them in TTs and sometimes even on flat/rolling stages. Nowadays the required skills difference between climbing HC cols and riding on flat cobbles sections is bigger than before (I mean watts and watts per kilogram stuff). It's because of reduced resistive forces associated with a bike (which promotes lighter but less powerful riders). That's why specializations developed much more over last decades. This and less competition back then are the reasons I don't think Merckx's achievements will even be matched. If someone does Merxcian stuff (like Pog yesterday) it should be rated even higher in the current era.

 

[Barkintheeye]

Let's look objectively whether Pogacar is a candidate to be counted among the all-time greats.

If he falls off a cliff tomorrow and doesn't win anything for the rest of his life, then no. He's already in the top 30 though.

If you take his age into account it becomes a different matter. This is what the greatest riders achieved before turning twenty-five:

Merckx: 3 GTs, 7 monuments, 1 world title
Hinault: 3 GTs, 2 monuments
Bartali: 3 GTs, 3 monuments
Pogacar: 2 GTs, 4 monuments

And Pogacar only turns twenty-five in September, so he might yet add one or two before that.

Conclusion: Only Merckx had more major wins at that young age. Pogacar is on schedule to become one of the all-time greats. If he continues at his current level for another year or seven he might overtake Hinault as the second greatest ever.

I’d call him greater already. Cycling was much less competitive at peak Merckx/Hinault times.

 

[BigCoward]

He can't match Merckx stats, it's not even worth thinking about it. I think he will fall short on all 3 measures of greatness (GT, monuments, WC's). But if he wins 7-8 GTs and 10-12 monuments (would be my best guess based on current trajectory). Its comparable due to different eras.

 

[Lequack]

Tadej Pocagar made history at the Tour of Flanders #RVV23 . When posting his activity on Strava, his activity was flagged by the platform. He beat the Oude Kwaremont KOM and became the 1st person in history to do the 2.15km in less than 4 minutes.

Tadej Pogačar uploads Tour of Flanders win to Strava... gets flagged

The UAE Team Emirates rider had smashed the Oude Kwaremont KOM, setting the fastest time by 11 seconds

road.cc

 

[wheresmybrakes]

Tadej Pocagar made history at the Tour of Flanders #RVV23 . When posting his activity on Strava, his activity was flagged by the platform. He beat the Oude Kwaremont KOM and became the 1st person in history to do the 2.15km in less than 4 minutes.

Tadej Pogačar uploads Tour of Flanders win to Strava... gets flagged

The UAE Team Emirates rider had smashed the Oude Kwaremont KOM, setting the fastest time by 11 seconds

road.cc

Seeing the length of the course is 273.4km, something tells me he cheated.

 

[Big Doopie]

Damnit I was just starting to recover from the tennis GOAT wars.

who did you vote for?

or am i re-opening a can of worms?

 

[Big Doopie]

He can't match Merckx stats, it's not even worth thinking about it. I think he will fall short on all 3 measures of greatness (GT, monuments, WC's). But if he wins 7-8 GTs and 10-12 monuments (would be my best guess based on current trajectory). Its comparable due to different eras.

oh i think he will challenge in GTs.

he will soon be racing two a year.

 

[Big Doopie]

I’d call him greater already. Cycling was much less competitive at peak Merckx/Hinault times.

definitely hinault whose closest competitors (eg. Zoetemelk, Van Impe, and Agostinho) were old and from a previous era

Merckx on the other hand beat lots of riders who would win many GTs and monuments before, during, and after his era. People like Gimondi, Poulidor, Zoetemelk, DeVlaeminck and Ocana would have had even more amazing palmares without racing against Merckx. Hard to find similar riders in Hinault's time. And once he was confronted by the next generation he largely got beat.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Agostinho would have won several GTs if at least he had a support team or knew how to ride - he was called Joaquim Cambalhotas - Joaquim somersaults - because he was always falling.

 

[Big Doopie]

Agostinho would have won several GTs if at least he had a support team or knew how to ride - he was called Joaquim Cambalhotas - Joaquim somersaults - because he was always falling.

one of my favorite riders (and died way too early).

however, he only podiumed the TDF at the age of 36-38 (no one knew his real age) during Hinault's first two wins. That and many other things points to Hinault's era having very few other great champions in his age group...perhaps Saronni? But he largely only rode the giro - i think he may have done the TDF very late in his career.

 

[BigCoward]

oh i think he will challenge in GTs.

he will soon be racing two a year.

I think he can win 2 a year if he doesn't keep going crazy in the classics. Or if he does Giro - Vuelta.
No way does he go mad classics campaign - Giro - and then win the tour against Remco, Vingegaard and any other emerging talent such as Ayuso. I don't care how remarkable he is.

 

[Big Doopie]

I think he can win 2 a year if he doesn't keep going crazy in the classics. Or if he does Giro - Vuelta.
No way does he go mad classics campaign - Giro - and then win the tour against Remco, Vingegaard and any other emerging talent such as Ayuso. I don't care how remarkable he is.

he could probably do tour/vuelta as well.

 

[IndianCyclist]

I agree with you except one thing. When pogacar retires, merckx will continue to be the greatest off all time.

In cricket, Don Bradman's record is probably similarly unassailable. And his record is even more incredible as at that time he batted without helmets against fast bowlers.

 

[Cookster15]

In cricket, Don Bradman's record is probably similarly unassailable. And his record is even more incredible as at that time he batted without helmets against fast bowlers.

Well said, thank you for posting that. People will dismiss Don Bradman simply because its "only" cricket and not one of the American sports or football (soccer). But Bradman's record was so superior that it was simply incredible, and no words can fully describe. And whilst during Bradman's time, cricket wasn't as strong in India as it is now, today cricket is likely only 2nd to soccer for global popularity (number of followers).

Cycling fans here would do well to check Bradman's record against every other cricket player then or since. The raw statistics say Bradman was certainly even more superior in cricket than Merckx was in the sport of cycling.

But on Pogacar and Merckx - nobody will ever beat Merckx's record, not even if Pogi continues like this.

 

[Lequack]

Well said, thank you for posting that. People will dismiss Don Bradman simply because its "only" cricket and not one of the American sports or football (soccer). But Bradman's record was so superior that it was simply incredible, and no words can fully describe. And whilst during Bradman's time, cricket wasn't as strong in India as it is now, today cricket is likely only 2nd to soccer for global popularity (number of followers).

Cycling fans here would do well to check Bradman's record against every other cricket player then or since. The raw statistics say Bradman was certainly even more superior in cricket than Merckx was in the sport of cycling.

But on Pogacar and Merckx - nobody will ever beat Merckx's record, not even if Pogi continues like this.

What if in the future there will be like 10 monuments and 5 GTs a year, or something. Maybe they decide 3 weeks is too much and shorten it to two. What I'm saying is that it's hard to compare among generations with such a big gap. Even Merckxx said so himself.

 

[Cookster15]

What if in the future there will be like 10 monuments and 5 GTs a year, or something.

Sure, but I doubt this. I get the feeling Pog will start losing ability earlier as he arrived so young - 2019 ToC aged 20. First, he needs to recapture the TdF title. Merckx was defeated during his reign too so there are parallels there.

But the hype is understandable. He was immense on Sunday. Just on another level to everyone and its fantastic to see a Grand Tour winner ride Flanders like that. Special mention to UAE who did a great job setting up the race for him.