Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Cookster15]

In cricket, Don Bradman's record is probably similarly unassailable. And his record is even more incredible as at that time he batted without helmets against fast bowlers.

Well said, thank you for posting that. People will dismiss Don Bradman simply because its "only" cricket and not one of the American sports or football (soccer). But Bradman's record was so superior that it was simply incredible, and no words can fully describe. And whilst during Bradman's time, cricket wasn't as strong in India as it is now, today cricket is likely only 2nd to soccer for global popularity (number of followers).

Cycling fans here would do well to check Bradman's record against every other cricket player then or since. The raw statistics say Bradman was certainly even more superior in cricket than Merckx was in the sport of cycling.

But on Pogacar and Merckx - nobody will ever beat Merckx's record, not even if Pogi continues like this.

 

[Lequack]

Well said, thank you for posting that. People will dismiss Don Bradman simply because its "only" cricket and not one of the American sports or football (soccer). But Bradman's record was so superior that it was simply incredible, and no words can fully describe. And whilst during Bradman's time, cricket wasn't as strong in India as it is now, today cricket is likely only 2nd to soccer for global popularity (number of followers).

Cycling fans here would do well to check Bradman's record against every other cricket player then or since. The raw statistics say Bradman was certainly even more superior in cricket than Merckx was in the sport of cycling.

But on Pogacar and Merckx - nobody will ever beat Merckx's record, not even if Pogi continues like this.

What if in the future there will be like 10 monuments and 5 GTs a year, or something. Maybe they decide 3 weeks is too much and shorten it to two. What I'm saying is that it's hard to compare among generations with such a big gap. Even Merckxx said so himself.

 

[Cookster15]

What if in the future there will be like 10 monuments and 5 GTs a year, or something.

Sure, but I doubt this. I get the feeling Pog will start losing ability earlier as he arrived so young - 2019 ToC aged 20. First, he needs to recapture the TdF title. Merckx was defeated during his reign too so there are parallels there.

But the hype is understandable. He was immense on Sunday. Just on another level to everyone and its fantastic to see a Grand Tour winner ride Flanders like that. Special mention to UAE who did a great job setting up the race for him.

 

[Wyndbrook]

So Teddy Merckx became a heavyweight champion yesterday. Now he has to lose weight to regain his lightweight title in the much anticipated rematch vs the Deadly Skeleton in July. In the future he wants to gain more power and become a super-heavyweight champion in Roubaix. More chips and chubbier face should do.

Was that ketchup I saw on his chips yesterday?

 

[Lequack]

UAE behind the stage

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAM_wmWvePo&feature=youtu.be

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Others realize they see a phenom:

Tribute by MVP

That's obvious. What we do is impressive but what he does is much more impressive. It'll be like Merckx, or he's at least well on his way to that. He's the rider who -- if he wanted -- has the best chance to win all five monuments and all three grand tours. I think he'll pull it off too

Mathieu van der Poel: Tadej Pogačar will win all five monuments and all three grand tours

According to Mathieu van der Poel (Alpecin-Deceuninck), he rode his best-ever finale of the Tour of Flanders on Sunday, the second cycling monument of the season. Knowing that the 28-year-old Dutch rider has never finished outside the top five in his four previous Ronde van Vlaanderen...

news.yahoo.com

And by Eddy himself:

What a rider this Pogacar is. I can never say it enough, he's so much more than just a champion.

https://sports.yahoo.com/merckx-hails-extraordinary-pogacar-flanders-144359665.html

 

[Panda Claws]

Everyone is waaaay too calm about this to be honest. Forum should be aflame and hailing this cobble-conqueror.

Where are the new users? Where are the avatars? I see Tom, I see Alejandro but those are relics of the old sport.
A new era, but there are no signatures and the post count is lacking.

Forget Contador, forget Froome and even Sagan as this right now will be the bandwagon this forum'll never match again. Last chance to hop on: Liège.
Brave posters are needed to find discord where there is none, to fill the thread when there is such a lack of peers.

Manifest destiny.

 

[Oldermanish]

I also believe that Eddy Merckx palmares is unsurpassable. That is why I have been pointing out how the heir to Merckx does not necessarily entail that kind of palmares by any margin, but mostly an ability to win and race in all fields during all year, notwithstanding contemporary cycling being much more professionalized and scientific that in the 70s and 80s, which furthers more specialization and body types/types of races. That's what makes Pogacar incredible and the real heir to Merckx: not his achievements overall, but the range of his abilities and drive.

Well said, thank you for posting that. People will dismiss Don Bradman simply because its "only" cricket and not one of the American sports or football (soccer). But Bradman's record was so superior that it was simply incredible, and no words can fully describe. And whilst during Bradman's time, cricket wasn't as strong in India as it is now, today cricket is likely only 2nd to soccer for global popularity (number of followers).

Cycling fans here would do well to check Bradman's record against every other cricket player then or since. The raw statistics say Bradman was certainly even more superior in cricket than Merckx was in the sport of cycling.

But on Pogacar and Merckx - nobody will ever beat Merckx's record, not even if Pogi continues like this.

I would agree on the sheer number of events and longevity necessary to accomplish it. IMO the eras are different enough in terms of competitiveness and specialization that Pogacar, Evenpoel, Roglic, etc. should also be viewed in terms that are relevant. If it were down sheerly to numbers.....we'd be talking about Major Taylor. He faced numerous obstacles just to compete and dominated the biggest cycling events of the time. Just lacked a derailleur to be relevant, I guess.

 

[Tonton]

Debating which rider faced higher quality opposition is a tricky proposition. In one-day races, for example, Merckx had to put up with De Vlaeminck, Moser, Leman, Gimondi, Van Springel and some other super tough customers like Bitossi, Godefroot...and Poupou. I can make the case that it was harder to dominate one-day races then than it is now.

Dominate: to me that's what it's all about when it comes to assessing greatness. In my lifetime, no one ever dominated cycling like Merckx did. Then there was Hinault...he was close, but he wasn't Merckx. And now, we have Tadej Pogacar. It's doubtful that Pog will surpass Eddy stats-wise, but that's beside the point; Pogacar has already won two TdF, raced ten monuments and finished 18-12-3-1-1-5-4-1-4-1. He dominates.

The question is: can Tadej Pogacar keep dominating cycling? And for how long? That will determine his place in cycling history.

 

[Oldermanish]

Others realize they see a phenom:

Tribute by MVP

That's obvious. What we do is impressive but what he does is much more impressive. It'll be like Merckx, or he's at least well on his way to that. He's the rider who -- if he wanted -- has the best chance to win all five monuments and all three grand tours. I think he'll pull it off too

Mathieu van der Poel: Tadej Pogačar will win all five monuments and all three grand tours

According to Mathieu van der Poel (Alpecin-Deceuninck), he rode his best-ever finale of the Tour of Flanders on Sunday, the second cycling monument of the season. Knowing that the 28-year-old Dutch rider has never finished outside the top five in his four previous Ronde van Vlaanderen...

news.yahoo.com

And by Eddy himself:

What a rider this Pogacar is. I can never say it enough, he's so much more than just a champion.

https://sports.yahoo.com/merckx-hails-extraordinary-pogacar-flanders-144359665.html

I would take their opinions seriously over casual fans. The same has been said about Roglic and his view of his career; I think he would feel honored and humbled by the respect of his racing peers over the public view. Those opinions come from the shared toil and sacrifice they all endure.

 

[Gigs_98]

On another note, am I the only one thinking Roubaix actually suits him better than MSR?
I just don't really see why I shouldn't believe he is currently the best rider in the world on flat cobbles. Like, the Kwaremont is 2/3 flat and he was literally the strongest rider in the Roubaix stage at the Tour last year. The strongest cobbles rider can usually win Roubaix at some point in their career. The strongest puncheur will still always struggle to win MSR if they don't also have a good sprint.

 

[Red Rick]

On another note, am I the only one thinking Roubaix actually suits him better than MSR?
I just don't really see why I shouldn't believe he is currently the best rider in the world on flat cobbles. Like, the Kwaremont is 2/3 flat and he was literally the strongest rider in the Roubaix stage at the Tour last year. The strongest cobbles rider can usually win Roubaix at some point in their career. The strongest puncheur will still always struggle to win MSR if they don't also have a good sprint.

Roubaix and MSR should both be hard to win for him.

But the interpretation that this result makes him the best rider on flat cobbles is just wtf.

 

[repre]

On another note, am I the only one thinking Roubaix actually suits him better than MSR?
I just don't really see why I shouldn't believe he is currently the best rider in the world on flat cobbles. Like, the Kwaremont is 2/3 flat and he was literally the strongest rider in the Roubaix stage at the Tour last year. The strongest cobbles rider can usually win Roubaix at some point in their career. The strongest puncheur will still always struggle to win MSR if they don't also have a good sprint.

He already tired competition on the hills prior to Kwaremont and cobbles there are nothing compared to Roubaix. For win in P-R he would have to completely change his body and forget about GC battles in GTs for some time. And i don't see that happening for like 5-6 years, no team would let this happen for sponsor's sake.

 

[Gregor_Slovenia]

I am still under impression of yesterday. I read column from Cancellara, listened to Wedu, Horner, read comments from Eddy M. This win is something for ages. I do not know why, but suddenly I remembered on Patrick Lefevere and his words from a week or two ago: the only good thing was my lunch hopefully also he finds something good from this spring campaign. Not really Pogačar related, but still. Pogačar was the reason I remembered the sunday lunch

 

[saunaking]

Its almost pointless to try and determine which rider is better when they are from completely different generations.
Merckx dominated a backwoods sport filled with farmers from France, Italy and the low countries. We say he had to fight these other great champions but maybe these guys were great champions because most of the entire peloton was just a bunch of scrubs and the few really strong guys won everything.

On the other hand if Eddy was born in 2000, maybe with proper training and preparation he would be even more dominant than Pog?

The 'best' riders are pretty much always the current generation as its human nature to continually improve and push the limits.

 

[Tonton]

MSR: I agree that sprinting is needed to get many shots. But there have been many solo wins, and they came down to tactics, making the right move at the right time. This year, Tadej spent his team and his energy trying to get the sprinters out of the picture.

He wanted to do it all and MVP made the move that he should have made. Pogacar is so good and so confident that he makes mistakes. It cost him a Tour, it will cost him more races, but he's a Mandalorian and it is the way. More often than not he will win, and win big. He needs a little Vincenzo (and a danish) with his coffee and MSR will fall into his bag.

I don't think that Pogacar needs to re-invent himself and gain weight to win PR. A little luck will go a long way, avoid punctures when the race unfolds, after that he will make them all freak out. Don't think that MVP, WVA are dumb: they know how good Pog is. They will see ghosts like everybody else. And if Tadej Pogacar gets 50 meters, he'll ITT his way to the line. Give Tadej Pogacar three shots at PR, he'll win (at least) one.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Roubaix and MSR should both be hard to win for him.

Assuming Van Aert or Van der Poel keep riding for the next 10 years, and don't decline all of a sudden like Sagan or Alaphilippe have, and assuming they will be at the start of San Remo every year maybe. But if we assume that in 4 years, when Van Aert and Van der Poel have turned 32, that they might start losing their edge, then Pogacar will still only be 28 or 29. Who is going to follow him on the Poggio and be able to outsprint him at the line as well? Maybe if Gregoire turns into Alaphilippe 2.0, but i'm not seeing too many possible contenders. I can't imagine future De Lie/Kooij being able to follow Pogacar there. So i'd say if he wants to win San Remo, he actually has quite a big chance to win imho.

 

[houtdffan]

One word of caution': The first half of the year, Pog was by far the best. By the end of the year, Remco had the Velo D'Or with an even more dominant second half

Is it possible Pog peaked a little too early last year and may not be able to sustain this form again through the end of the season?

One CANNOT say Remco is not on Pog's level, given that Remco was the world's best rider last year, and he has done nothing to show his form has dropped this year

 

[Andy schleck]

Assuming Van Aert or Van der Poel keep riding for the next 10 years, and don't decline all of a sudden like Sagan or Alaphilippe have, and assuming they will be at the start of San Remo every year maybe. But if we assume that in 4 years, when Van Aert and Van der Poel have turned 32, that they might start losing their edge, then Pogacar will still only be 28 or 29. Who is going to follow him on the Poggio and be able to outsprint him at the line as well? Maybe if Gregoire turns into Alaphilippe 2.0, but i'm not seeing too many possible contenders. I can't imagine future De Lie/Kooij being able to follow Pogacar there. So i'd say if he wants to win San Remo, he actually has quite a big chance to win imho.

Antonio morgado.

Jokes apart, we don't know what will happens when pogacar turns 28 or 29. Maybe he also start to decline soon, maybe it will appear better riders than him in the next years, maybe he could crash(hope not). There's a lot of factors that could happen. Even your idol remco evenepoel can be better than him in the future, and beat him on milan san remo.

 

[Andy schleck]

On another note, am I the only one thinking Roubaix actually suits him better than MSR?
I just don't really see why I shouldn't believe he is currently the best rider in the world on flat cobbles. Like, the Kwaremont is 2/3 flat and he was literally the strongest rider in the Roubaix stage at the Tour last year. The strongest cobbles rider can usually win Roubaix at some point in their career. The strongest puncheur will still always struggle to win MSR if they don't also have a good sprint.

I don't think so. I can't see in the near future pogacar dropping van aert and van der poel and other riders made for the cobbles of paris roubaix. It's not like tour flandres that suits him because of the climbs.
Milan san remo could be more "easy" for him to win, with an ambush in the descent after pogio after a selective group.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Antonio morgado.

Jokes apart, we don't know what will happens when pogacar turns 28 or 29. Maybe he also start to decline soon, maybe it will appear better riders than him in the next years, maybe he could crash(hope not). There's a lot of factors that could happen. Even your idol remco evenepoel can be better than him in the future, and beat him on milan san remo.

Anything can happen, but it is not unrealistic to assume his career will outlast that of his current main rivals on that course. And on the other hand, there are few other worldbeaters on the horizon with the tools to outplay him in San Remo. Even if he keeps copying last months tactics, he still has 5 years easily to get the stars aligned and get it right just once.

 

[Tonton]

Its almost pointless to try and determine which rider is better when they are from completely different generations. Merckx dominated a backwoods sport filled with farmers from France, Italy and the low countries. We say he had to fight these other great champions but maybe these guys were great champions because most of the entire peloton was just a bunch of scrubs and the few really strong guys won everything.

I need to react and yet not have my yearly meltdown...

I agree with the first sentence. After that...wrong. Years ago, cycling was not global but it was bigger than any sport; kids and adults in Europe used a bike to go to school or work. Every town had races, many of them and often. Riding your bike fast was even better than how fast you run, You are so wrong...

Imagine the Tourmalet in 1910, a dirt/gravel road...scrubs? About the farmers: ask MVP about his grandfather. Try to complete a single stage of the 1908 TdF and check Marie Marvingt. How about a 5000 km Tour? Scrubs?

It looks like you're speaking from both sides of your mouth...sorry...

Scrubs? That one is too much for me. Being a gregario for Coppi meant that you could ride nearly as fast as he was, otherwise you're useless. The sport has changed, the equipment has changed, professionalism, roads are paved and comparing generations isn't fair...I agree.

Scrubs? I disagree.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Scrubs?

A scrub is a guy that can't get no love from me. Maybe scrub isn't the correct term though, but overall i think you can understand what saunaking is trying to say. Even in the 80s you still had guys smoking more than a pack of cigarettes a day. You say cycling wasn't global, but it was a bigger sport. If that is true that would actually mean you had at least the same amount of riders/races, but coming from a much smaller talentpool. Logically that would mean the overall level/quality would be much lower. So you are in fact making saunaking's case for him and debunking your own argument.

 

[Extinction]

By the 80s, cycling had already pretty much become "global": meaning Europe, Soviet Federazione, North America, Mexico, Columbia and Australia (New Zealand? South Africa?). However, in Italy, France, Belgium, Spain and the Netherlands there were far more races and racers than today. The sport was still quite grass roots. Since then the sport has grown in every other aspect (materials, preparation science, nutrition, etc), but arguably in Europe, with more traffic on the roads and changing lifestyle of the youth, has been declining for a couple of decades. It's still popular, but in Italy for example, not as much as it was in the Gimondi-Moser through the pre-Madonna di Campiglio Pantani era. The question thus is has the sport grown in the other areas to compensate for it's decline in Europe (and US in the wake of the Armstrong affair)? I don't know the answer to this, but my suspicion is that cycling experienced steady growth in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s, but has leveled off since or declined. The talent pool today should thus not be larger, but the farming of talent perhaps is more scientific. Today you can be given a pro contract on Strava numbers alone. The parameters for determining who has pro qualities have broadened it would seem.

 

[Gigs_98]

Roubaix and MSR should both be hard to win for him.

But the interpretation that this result makes him the best rider on flat cobbles is just wtf.

Thinking there is correlation between being good in the ronde and PR...outrageous