Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Savant12]

In hindsight probably not. But that isn’t what Visma were telling everyone right up until the moment Vingo was dropped and lost 1’08” to Pogi on PdB.

They've got to put that news out there just to keep UAE and Pog guessing as to Vingo's actual limit. It was a bluff and Pog saw it on the road.

 

[SHAD0W93]

In hindsight probably not. But that isn’t what Visma were telling everyone right up until the moment Vingo was dropped and lost 1’08” to Pogi on PdB.

Whether on purpose or an unintentional error that turned into a positive, Visma and Vingegaard were ropeadoped by Pogacar on stage 11 and refused to see it after the stage 14 beatdown. They like others didn’t see that Pogacar had improved this year. If Visma can catch up next year is anyone’s guess, but they’re on the back foot due to the crash.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Next year, Vingegaard will be stronger than ever and his team too. Let's hope for a good route that allows riders to do long range attacks. The best thing they could do is putting a flat 50 km TT in the first week to give Remco a 1 and half minute of advantage and create gaps between Pogacar and Vingegaard. This will create an agressive race by UAE and Visma.

 

[Peyroteo94]

They've got to put that news out there just to keep UAE and Pog guessing as to Vingo's actual limit. It was a bluff and Pog saw it on the road.

I don't even know if they were bluffing. For me it was clear they didn't expect Pogacar to be that good. People seem to forget Pogacar delivered 3 of the top5 best climbing performances ever.

 

[Rou]

Vingo '24 was not better than Vingo '23.

He was quite better in 24 than 23 and he admitted that in their newest documentary on Youtube. Or maybe you have not watched it and are speculating? The numbers don't lie and Visma were expecting to comfortably bury Pogi on Plateau de Beille. I can't wait for next year to see Niermann's arrogant face in the car on that day.
I knew 24 Pog was different since Valter 2000 in March. People were claiming this is the usual Pog, bla, bla... But I saw his different physique, different, approach to climbing, different cadence...
Well on Stage 15 in the TDF Visma finally realized the truth. Mou told you all that Visma will find the breaking point in Vingo much sooner than they will find it in Pogi but you all ridiculed him.
In 2025 Visma needs to find a different approach to battle Pog. They can't grind him out with hard pace anymore. They need him to make tactical mistakes (like on stage 11). On pure brute force they can't touch him.

 

[Peyroteo94]

He was quite better in 24 than 23 and he admitted that in their newest documentary on Youtube. Or maybe you have not watched it and are speculating? The numbers don't lie and Visma were expecting to comfortably bury Pogi on Plateau de Beille. I can't wait for next year to see Niermann's arrogant face in the car on that day.
I knew 24 Pog was different since Valter 2000 in March. People were claiming this is the usual Pog, bla, bla... But I saw his different physique, different, approach to climbing, different cadence...
Well on Stage 15 in the TDF Visma finally realized the truth. Mou told you all that Visma will find the breaking point in Vingo much sooner than they will find it in Pogi but you all ridiculed him.
In 2025 Visma needs to find a different approach to battle Pog. They can't grind him out with hard pace anymore. They need him to make tactical mistakes (like on stage 11). On pure brute force they can't touch him.

Calm down, Vingegaard is a different beast with a perfect preparation. If I think he can drop Pogacar on sheer power? I don't, but he can put him on the ropes if he is overconfident again. TT performance will be huge for Jonas next July.

 

[Rou]

Calm down, Vingegaard is a different beast with a perfect preparation. If I think he can drop Pogacar on sheer power? I don't, but he can put him on the ropes if he is overconfident again. TT performance will be huge for Jonas next July.

I think 45 days is a good amount of time to prepare. If Pogacar was not at the race this year now we would be talking about the alien performance of Jonas. Vingegaard in 2023 had a long and perfect preparation and was still beaten multiple times by Pog before the Slovenian collapsed in the third week. Pogacar was dropped last year by Castroviejo pacing. This is called bad preparation. Jonas this year was solid all race and even on Isola he pushed higher watts than last year.
Pogacar can still lose of course. I think he is not very good at tactics and makes mistakes easily.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I think 45 days is a good amount of time to prepare. If Pogacar was not at the race this year now we would be talking about the alien performance of Jonas. Vingegaard in 2023 had a long and perfect preparation and was still beaten multiple times by Pog before the Slovenian collapsed in the third week. Pogacar was dropped last year by Castroviejo pacing. This is called bad preparation. Jonas this year was solid all race and even on Isola he pushed higher watts than last year.
Pogacar can still lose of course. I think he is not very good at tactics and makes mistakes easily.

No, it is not. Pogacar had 45 days to prepare for the Tour and was not consistent during the whole Tour. Don't underestimate Vingegaard, he is very close to Pogacar in GT's. I just hope for no crashes next year to see this rivalry again.

 

[Savant12]

He was quite better in 24 than 23 and he admitted that in their newest documentary on Youtube. Or maybe you have not watched it and are speculating? The numbers don't lie and Visma were expecting to comfortably bury Pogi on Plateau de Beille. I can't wait for next year to see Niermann's arrogant face in the car on that day.
I knew 24 Pog was different since Valter 2000 in March. People were claiming this is the usual Pog, bla, bla... But I saw his different physique, different, approach to climbing, different cadence...
Well on Stage 15 in the TDF Visma finally realized the truth. Mou told you all that Visma will find the breaking point in Vingo much sooner than they will find it in Pogi but you all ridiculed him.
In 2025 Visma needs to find a different approach to battle Pog. They can't grind him out with hard pace anymore. They need him to make tactical mistakes (like on stage 11). On pure brute force they can't touch him.

I'll just stop you there. Have you seen Vingo's actual numbers? Or is it just what Vingo/Visma have been saying on YouTube or is it Netflix?
Also, the Visma team didn't have a great Tour compared to their previous years' dominance.
Another thing, a team is never going to tell you the real power their riders are putting out (unless they post to Strava).

 

[Savant12]

No, it is not. Pogacar had 45 days to prepare for the Tour and was not consistent during the whole Tour. Don't underestimate Vingegaard, he is very close to Pogacar in GT's. I just hope for no crashes next year to see this rivalry again.

Wise words! I'm a big Pog fan but I know never to discount a fully fit Vingo.

 

[Rou]

I'll just stop you there. Have you seen Vingo's actual numbers? Or is it just what Vingo/Visma have been saying on YouTube or is it Netflix?
Also, the Visma team didn't have a great Tour compared to their previous years' dominance.
Another thing, a team is never going to tell you the real power their riders are putting out (unless they post to Strava).

No, I haven't. The same way I haven't seen Pogacar or Remco's actual numbers. What we all saw was Vingegaard crushing climbing records this TDF and him admitting that the calculations that were published are very accurate. When different sources and Jonas himself claim that his level this year was higher than last year who are we to disprove that?

 

[Peyroteo94]

No, I haven't. The same way I haven't seen Pogacar or Remco's actual numbers. What we all saw was Vingegaard crushing climbing records this TDF and him admitting that the calculations that were published are very accurate. When different sources and Jonas himself claim that his level this year was higher than last year who are we to disprove that?

This but I think Vingegaard would have another gear with a better preparation. He didn't have explosiveness enough compared to previous years

 

[Peyroteo94]

I'll just stop you there. Have you seen Vingo's actual numbers? Or is it just what Vingo/Visma have been saying on YouTube or is it Netflix?
Also, the Visma team didn't have a great Tour compared to their previous years' dominance.
Another thing, a team is never going to tell you the real power their riders are putting out (unless they post to Strava).

They didn't have a great Tour because Vingegaard was inferior to Pogacar by a big margin.

 

[SHAD0W93]

This but I think Vingegaard would have another gear with a better preparation. He didn't have explosiveness enough compared to previous years

We don’t know how accurate that is though due to Vingegaard always going the long way to try and get Pogacar’s wheel. Vinge kept making it harder for himself to try and get on the wheel.

 

[Cookster15]

I'll just stop you there. Have you seen Vingo's actual numbers? Or is it just what Vingo/Visma have been saying on YouTube or is it Netflix?
Also, the Visma team didn't have a great Tour compared to their previous years' dominance.
Another thing, a team is never going to tell you the real power their riders are putting out (unless they post to Strava).

I think these stats are self explanatory on Vingo's numbers in the Tour. Even Remco demolished Pantani's record.

New Top 100 Plateau de Beille: The takeover

1. 2024: 39:50 Tadej Pogacar 23.95 km/h 2. 2024: 40:58 Jonas Vingegaard 23.29 km/h 3. 2024: 42:41 Remco Evenepoel 22.35 km/h 4. 1998...

www.climbing-records.com

1. 2024: 39:50 Tadej Pogacar 23.95 km/h
2. 2024: 40:58 Jonas Vingegaard 23.29 km/h
3. 2024: 42:41 Remco Evenepoel 22.35 km/h
4. 1998: 43:20 Marco Pantani 21.88 km/h
5. 2024: 43:44 Mikel Landa 21.81 km/h
6. 2007: 44:08 Alberto Contador 21.62 km/h
7. 2007: 44:08 Michael Rasmussen 21.62 km/h
8. 1998: 44:26 Jan Ullrich 21.34 km/h
9. 2024: 44:33 Joao Almeida 21.41 km/h
10. 2007: 44:45 Mauricio Soler 21.32 km/h

 

[Peyroteo94]

I think these stats are self explanatory on Vingo's numbers in the Tour. Even Remco demolished Pantani's record.

New Top 100 Plateau de Beille: The takeover

1. 2024: 39:50 Tadej Pogacar 23.95 km/h 2. 2024: 40:58 Jonas Vingegaard 23.29 km/h 3. 2024: 42:41 Remco Evenepoel 22.35 km/h 4. 1998...

www.climbing-records.com

1. 2024: 39:50 Tadej Pogacar 23.95 km/h
2. 2024: 40:58 Jonas Vingegaard 23.29 km/h
3. 2024: 42:41 Remco Evenepoel 22.35 km/h
4. 1998: 43:20 Marco Pantani 21.88 km/h
5. 2024: 43:44 Mikel Landa 21.81 km/h
6. 2007: 44:08 Alberto Contador 21.62 km/h
7. 2007: 44:08 Michael Rasmussen 21.62 km/h
8. 1998: 44:26 Jan Ullrich 21.34 km/h
9. 2024: 44:33 Joao Almeida 21.41 km/h
10. 2007: 44:45 Mauricio Soler 21.32 km/h

A legendary day for a cycling fan. I watch cycling for days like this.

 

[velaso montador]

The historic show Pogacar put up while also donig the historic Giro-Tour double is unrivaled of anything weve seen in modern cycling, unmatched.

Still perplexed in some way of the fashion he pulled it off, mindboggling how strong he is now.

 

[Savant12]

I think these stats are self explanatory on Vingo's numbers in the Tour. Even Remco demolished Pantani's record.

Yes, he posted a great time but whether that is his highest level, I believe he still wasn't at his best. 2025 will be interesting.

 

[Peyroteo94]

The historic show Pogacar put up while also donig the historic Giro-Tour double is unrivaled of anything weve seen in modern cycling, unmatched.

Still perplexed in some way of the fashion he pulled it off, mindboggling how strong he is now.

He is one WC away from having the best season ever.

 

[scribers]

I'll just stop you there. Have you seen Vingo's actual numbers? Or is it just what Vingo/Visma have been saying on YouTube or is it Netflix?
Also, the Visma team didn't have a great Tour compared to their previous years' dominance.
Another thing, a team is never going to tell you the real power their riders are putting out (unless they post to Strava).

Vingo confirmed the numbers bandied about were accurate. He could have just as easily said nothing or denied it.

 

[mariosommelier]

He is one WC away from having the best season ever.

He will not be denied.

 

[Savant12]

Vingo confirmed the numbers bandied about were accurate. He could have just as easily said nothing or denied it.

Ok, fair enough! But I still don't think those are his best numbers if fully fit, raced and trained.

Same with Pog, without a Giro in his legs, I think he can improve on what he did in this Tour.

How evenly matched are Pog and Vingo? I don't think this year, definitively tells us much, so bring on the 2025 Tour.

 

[Cookster15]

This but I think Vingegaard would have another gear with a better preparation. He didn't have explosiveness enough compared to previous years

Better prep might likely prevent what happened on Bonette / Isola but it would not have made much difference to what we saw on PdB. Pog won by 6 minutes and Vingo never collapsed - unlike Pog on Loze last year. I also think Pog is more explosive no matter what circumstances. So I’m still favouring Pog if they both have ideal prep.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Better prep might likely prevent what happened on Bonette / Isola but it would not have made much difference to what we saw on PdB. Pog won by 6 minutes and Vingo never collapsed - unlike Pog on Loze last year. I also think Pog is more explosive no matter what circumstances. So I’m still favouring Pog if they both have ideal prep.

Don't you think TT's will be crucial to decide who will need to attack to gain time?

 

[stekelegel]

The best Vingo for me was the TDF 2023 ITT Passy to Combloux. I even wonder if this years Pog would have bettered him that day. When Vingo cracks up his 2024 level next year, he could make Pog spend a lot more energy trying to distance him, for at best marginal gains. And then strike in an ITT or on the 1 bad day every rider has over the 3 weeks. Next year will tell.

I wonder if Remco keeping open his options (I want to win Giro or Tour, waiting on the route) might lead to Gouvenou including just a bit more ITT km, to ensure the big 3 all all present in 2025. Not that I think Vingo is better then Pog at an ITT, I just think that it is unlikely that Pog wil have another Granon or Loze moment the next years. So if you are looking to beat teddy, follow him in the mountains, and strike in the ITT.

But best made plans can be laid to waste when something like plateau de beille happens.