Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[gregrowlerson]

"And on the seventh day God created Slovenian riders."

From the Forum Genesis, probably.

 

[Cookster15]

Nibali was the third best climber in 2014 Dauphine. Stage 2 tell us that, however he was nowhere near the level of Froome and Contador. Of course is one of the biggest IF in cycling history but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have a chance against Froome or Contador in the mountains.

I disagree. Dauphine was a prep race in 2014. How many times have people pointed at Dauphine results and been left with mud on their face at the TdF? For example GC contenders will often schedule a stint of altitude training after the Dauphine to peak at the TdF.

I doubt Nibali had peaked at that race. At that period of his career Nibali had a monster TT - check the 2013 Giro stage 8 vs Cadel Evans. Nibs was only beaten on that stage by Dowsett, Wiggins and specialist Kangert. I suspect he might have smoked Contador in a TT in that form. And when he was on that form he could climb with anyone. The ease with which Nibali dominated the 2014 TdF was obvious. Credit where due.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I disagree. Dauphine was a prep race in 2014. How many times have people pointed at Dauphine results and been left with mud on their face at the TdF? For example GC contenders will often schedule a stint of altitude training after the Dauphine to peak at the TdF.

I doubt Nibali had peaked at that race. At that period of his career Nibali had a monster TT - check the 2013 Giro stage 8 vs Cadel Evans. Nibs was only beaten on that stage by Dowsett, Wiggins and specialist Kangert. I suspect he might have smoked Contador in a TT in that form. And when he was on that form he could climb with anyone. The ease with which Nibali dominated the 2014 TdF was obvious. Credit where due.

He could smoked Contador in the TT? Contador at his peak always was two tiers above Nibali in TT. Contador in his whole career never was close to his best shape in the Dauphiné.

 

[Cookster15]

As far as Pog is concerned the above discussion seems to be is his long peak good enough to beat a short peak like Vingegaard? I am

He could smoked Contador in the TT? Contador at his peak always was two tiers above Nibali in TT. Contador in his whole career never was close to his best shape in the Dauphiné.

Not in 2014. Only 2009 Contador would I agree with you. I recall Nibali was at his career peak in 2013/2014. And Contador whilst he could still win GTs wasn’t quite as good after his ban.

 

[CyclistAbi]

If not super then maybe an ultra peak?

 

[Extinction]

As far as Pog is concerned the above discussion seems to be is his long peak good enough to beat a short peak like Vingegaard? I am

Not in 2014. Only 2009 Contador would I agree with you. I recall Nibali was at his career peak in 2013/2014. And Contador whilst he could still win GTs wasn’t quite as good after his ban.

Contador 2014 was as good as ever, he himself said so. I remember watching him win TA, droping a prime Quintana then soloing to the break to win alone on the final wall of a climb. In the Dauphine he stayed with vroom, vroom Froome on the first uphill finish beaten in the end, then the briton crashed and Contador made a searing attack in miserable conditions on stage 7 to put Sky to the lash, gaining 20 seconds on Froome and the race lead. But then team games, and this is where Tinkoff showed its limits, with Sky happy to see Contador's leader's jersey slip away, permitted Talansky to get the win.

 

[Red Rick]

Nibali vs Contador 2014 I'll make sure people argue about this at my funeral

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Contador 2014 was as good as ever, he himself said so. I remember watching him win TA, droping a prime Quintana then soloing to the break to win alone on the final wall of a climb. In the Dauphine he stayed with vroom, vroom Froome on the first uphill finish beaten in the end, then the briton crashed and Contador made a searing attack in miserable conditions on stage 7 to put Sky to the lash, gaining 20 seconds on Froome and the race lead. But then team games, and this is where Tinkoff showed its limits, with Sky happy to see Contador's leader's jersey slip away, permitted Talansky to get the win.

Yes, it was the best post-ban version of Contador.

 

[tobydawq]

Nibali vs Contador 2014 I'll make sure people argue about this at my funeral

Froome

 

[Cookster15]

Contador 2014 was as good as ever, he himself said so.

LOL, usual PR that most pros talk. Yes, I recall people claiming this back then. There was also talk Alberto broke the ADH record in the Dauphine - but it was more rumor and hype, never officially confirmed. But absolutely zero chance was Alberto as good post ban as 2009 (or even 2011 Giro). As I wrote, whilst he could still win GTs AC wasn’t quite as good after his ban. I do think he became more exciting to watch post ban as he didn't rely on pure power. His incredible stage 17 theft of the 2012 Vuelta a great example.

Getting back to Pog, we were discussing the ability to hold a peak. I am in two minds, hopefully he isn't an early bloomer who also fades earlier. We will find out if his early peak this year can be sustained. Valverde was a rider who could maintain a high level and he also maintained that high level to an older age too - albeit a lower level than the best GC riders. We are always guessing when young riders do something special - like Andy in 2007 Giro.

But I do think Pog will be motivated to avenge his 2022 TdF defeat. He won't make the same errors as he did on Granon.

 

[CyclistAbi]

The idea Pogi won't peak for spring classics and Tour is ludicrous. He will. Likely a bit of a peak in autumn too.

Triglav is the highest mountain in Slovenia and it has 3 peaks.

 

[Extinction]

LOL, usual PR that most pros talk. Yes, I recall people claiming this back then. There was also talk Alberto broke the ADH record in the Dauphine - but it was more rumor and hype, never officially confirmed. But absolutely zero chance was Alberto as good post ban as 2009 (or even 2011 Giro). As I wrote, whilst he could still win GTs AC wasn’t quite as good after his ban. I do think he became more exciting to watch post ban as he didn't rely on pure power. His incredible stage 17 theft of the 2012 Vuelta a great example.

Getting back to Pog, we were discussing the ability to hold a peak. I am in two minds, hopefully he isn't an early bloomer who also fades earlier. We will find out if his early peak this year can be sustained. Valverde was a rider who could maintain a high level and he also maintained that high level to an older age too - albeit a lower level than the best GC riders. We are always guessing when young riders do something special - like Andy in 2007 Giro.

But I do think Pog will be motivated to avenge his 2022 TdF defeat. He won't make the same errors as he did on Granon.

LOL. Contador was smokin from Tirreno till the Tour in 2014, more like 2009 than 2011. His recovery after the Tour fall and then killing it in the Vuelta against a mutant Froome is proof of this. Yes Froome fell too at the Tour, but both had the same time to get back into top shape and Contador bested the Alien.

Pogi will be like the Russian guy in Rocky IV, "l will break you." He even looks like a skinnier version of Dolph Lundgren!

 

[Cookster15]

Triglav is the highest mountain in Slovenia and it has 3 peaks.

Why would a rider with Pog's level need to structure his training to peak for such races or climbs? He doesn't. He will aim to peak for the TdF and still be competitive at those minor races.

 

[Cookster15]

LOL. Contador was smokin from Tirreno till the Tour in 2014, more like 2009 than 2011. His recovery after the Tour fall and then killing it in the Vuelta against a mutant Froome is proof of this. Yes Froome fell too at the Tour, but both had the same time to get back into top shape and Contador bested the Alien.

Pogi will be like the Russian guy in Rocky IV, "l will break you." He even looks like a skinnier version of Dolph Lundgren!

You can LOL but on the bold, I totally disagree. That is a highly subjective comment and frankly typical AC hype like how he won the 2008 Giro after "sitting on a beach" - simply not possible. AC was a fantastic rider, but he is still human.

You mentioned yesterday stage 2 2014 TdF - I checked that (link below) and Nibali won that stage gapping Contador's chasing group. How was that evidence that Contador was on another level?

Tour de France 2014: Stage 2 Results | Cyclingnews

I mentioned upthread, 2013/2014 Nibali was the strongest we ever saw him at that period of his career. He soft pedaled to that 2014 TdF win after Froome and Contador crashed out. Explain Nibs stage 8 TT at the 2013 Giro - demolished Evans and other TT specialists.

But all I hope for Pogi is that he avenges 2022 and doesn't crash and burn like the Russian guy in Rocky IV

 

[CyclistAbi]

Why would a rider with Pog's level need to structure his training to peak for such races or climbs? He doesn't. He will aim to peak for the TdF and still be competitive at those minor races.

Both Pogi and Rogla will need to peak more then once this season. And will need to structure their training in such way. As if they wouldn't do that. They would get beaten by some twin peaks. It's the nature of the sport.

 

[CyclistAbi]

But all I hope for Pogi is that he avenges 2022 and doesn't crash and burn like the Russian guy in Rocky IV

Slovenia is Central Europe. Rocky is from Italy. Our neighbor.

 

[Cookster15]

Both Pogi and Rogla will need to peak more then once this season. And will need to structure their training in such way. As if they wouldn't do that. They would get beaten by some twin peaks. It's the nature of the sport.

If you mean have an easier week prior to racing these events, then yes. It's a definition of what we consider to be a "peak".

 

[Extinction]

You can LOL but on the bold, I totally disagree. That is a highly subjective comment and frankly typical AC hype like how he won the 2008 Giro after "sitting on a beach" - simply not possible. AC was a fantastic rider, but he is still human.

You mentioned yesterday stage 2 2014 TdF - I checked that (link below) and Nibali won that stage gapping Contador's chasing group. How was that evidence that Contador was on another level?

Tour de France 2014: Stage 2 Results | Cyclingnews

I mentioned upthread, 2013/2014 Nibali was the strongest we ever saw him at that period of his career. He soft pedaled to that 2014 TdF win after Froome and Contador crashed out. Explain Nibs stage 8 TT at the 2013 Giro - demolished Evans and other TT specialists.

But all I hope for Pogi is that he avenges 2022 and doesn't crash and burn like the Russian guy in Rocky IV

Check again friend, I made no mention of Contador stage 2 TdF, which in any case was a cheeky move on Nibs point, but stage 2 of the Dauphine.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Cookster15

I am afraid that in this day and age there is no such thing as easier week prior. One day and it's all over. If you participate you need to peak. Or you will lose.

And you will for sure lose some. Great ones manage to win some occasionally.

 

[Cookster15]

Check again friend, I made no mention of Contador stage 2 TdF, which in any case was a cheeky move on Nibs point, but stage 2 of the Dauphine.

np, I recall wrong. But Dauphine means little to these guys. Training race.

 

[Cookster15]

@Cookster15

I am afraid that in this day and age there is no such thing as easier week prior. One day and it's all over. If you participate you need to peak. Or you will lose.

And you will for sure lose some. Great ones manage to win some occasionally.

Again, its a matter of definition. Riders seriously targeting to win the Tour de France are not at their peak in the Dauphine. Between the Dauphine and the TdF these riders typically spend a week doing altitude. Some of what we are discussing here can be explained better in the Clinic, but it also applies with basic sports physiology.

 

[Extinction]

np, I recall wrong. But Dauphine means little to these guys. Training race.

That depends on the psychological advantage gained in the overall economy of the season. Sometimes an emphatic showing at the Dauphine sets things in motion for the Tour.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Cookster15

Doping debates aside i would say that if you want to win Dauphiné. In this day and age. You will need to be at your best. Or you will likely lose.

 

[Cookster15]

@Cookster15

Doping debates aside i would say that if you want to win Dauphiné. In this day and age. You will need to be at your best. Or you will likely lose.

Define "lose"? If you are targeting the TdF and come 2nd at the Dauphine, that's a great result. Why would you care if you won the Dauphine or not if the big target was the TdF? Even the team managers know they can't win every race so they will prioritize targets for the season.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Cookster15

As this is Pogačar thread. In how many races do you reckon he will participate this year. Being prepared to lose? And will he do a lot of races or not so many?

P.S. And he is not the only one.