Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Salvarani]

I'm not throwing shade. Pogacar is simply an extreme outlier, he actually has big targets he can set all year around. First TdF winner who can also win Vlaanderen since the 80s I think? And I don't really think back of those ages as the highlights of the sport. It was before a lot of professionalization and specialization, it was much easier to be competitive everywhere back than then it is now, so it's not like riders like Hinault stopped existing, they just stopped winning everywhere, had to specialize or be a jack of all trades and master of none.

Why would Vingegaard have a real peak in March. He is competitive in the Tirrenos, Itzulias like you'd expect of most top GT riders.

I guess Pogacar is just in the mould of a lot those "old" legends. Back then they could do it all and they targeted all the big races.

Van Aert is someone who could be close as well, but he is a little bit too heavy.

Nibali and Valverde were very versatile as well, but also had their weaknesses.

Contador never raced the classics, except for LBL and Lombardia which he finished 9th at best. So there really is no way of knowing if he could have done something in those races. He had the engine and TT-ability at some point though.

A lot of great riders in the past 20 years just never wholeheartedly tried to go for anything other than the GTs or whatever they specialized in, for example maybe a lot of riders felt there was no point with Boonen and Cancellara around in the cobbles, so it is hard to argue or really know what they could have been capable of in certain races. Because they never really raced them or targeted them.

Vingegaard is just a completely different type of rider to anyone above. Him and Froome are in the same pocket.

 

[Red Rick]

I guess Pogacar is just in the mould of a lot those "old" legends. Back then they could do it all and they targeted all the big races.

Van Aert is someone who could be close as well, but he is a little bit too heavy.

Nibali and Valverde were very versatile as well, but also had their weaknesses.

Contador never raced the classics, except for LBL and Lombardia which he finished 9th at best. So there really is no way of knowing if he could have done something in those races. He had the engine and TT-ability at some point though.

A lot of great riders in the past 20 years just never wholeheartedly tried to go for anything other than the GTs or whatever they specialized in, for example maybe a lot of riders felt there was no point with Boonen and Cancellara around in the cobbles, so it is hard to argue or really know what they could have been capable of in certain races. Because they never really raced them or targeted them.

Vingegaard is just a completely different type of rider to anyone above. Him and Froome are in the same pocket.

Nibali and Valverde covered the semi common niche of climbing classics + GTs. Contador tried and was good in Liege once, but his peak was over before Lombardia got really climby. Him not going for Liege makes sense.

Van Aert is more versatile than Boonen or Cancellara, but him covering Liege and Lombardia is quite the stretch IMO.

 

[Salvarani]

Nibali and Valverde covered the semi common niche of climbing classics + GTs. Contador tried and was good in Liege once, but his peak was over before Lombardia got really climby. Him not going for Liege makes sense.

Van Aert is more versatile than Boonen or Cancellara, but him covering Liege and Lombardia is quite the stretch IMO.

He would have to slim down, but maybe he could win in other ways. From a reduced group or an attack earlier in the race. A tactical move.

Roglic and Ala is/were of course riders that could cover a lot different races as well.
Roglic just never tried cobbles, except for the debacle last season. Which was just a freak accident.

In the past 20-30 years they just never let the GC-guys race these races because of the injury-risk.

Pidcock is another rider to mention.

Lets see how guys like Sheffield and so on develops. I think I read an article in the off-season that he would like to win the TdF someday. Of course, what someone would like and what is possible are two different things but the kid has ambition at least.

There is definitely a new generation of riders coming up and many of them are quite versatile.

 

[pastronef]

I guess Pogacar is just in the mould of a lot those "old" legends. Back then they could do it all and they targeted all the big races.

Van Aert is someone who could be close as well, but he is a little bit too heavy.

Nibali and Valverde were very versatile as well, but also had their weaknesses.

Contador never raced the classics, except for LBL and Lombardia which he finished 9th at best. So there really is no way of knowing if he could have done something in those races. He had the engine and TT-ability at some point though.

A lot of great riders in the past 20 years just never wholeheartedly tried to go for anything other than the GTs or whatever they specialized in, for example maybe a lot of riders felt there was no point with Boonen and Cancellara around in the cobbles, so it is hard to argue or really know what they could have been capable of in certain races. Because they never really raced them or targeted them.

Vingegaard is just a completely different type of rider to anyone above. Him and Froome are in the same pocket.

Froome won HeraldSun, Oman, Criterium International, as early season races

 

[Salvarani]

Froome won HeraldSun, Oman, Criterium International, as early season races

Ok, but that wasnt the point I was making with that comparison. They are not as versatile as the other riders mentioned.

 

[Netserk]

Froome won HeraldSun, Oman, Criterium International, as early season races

Yes, stage races.

Sastre is an example of a more GT centric Tour winner.

 

[tobydawq]

Compare Vinge's level at Tours 2021 and 2022 vs other races. Got the difference? It's obvious that he peaks for one race and the only other race he was close to his best was Dauphine 2022. Tirreno? He was crushed by Pog just like the rest, he was on Landa/Porte level. The Tour? Completely different story, he becomes a monster. I never said which is normal and which is not, just stating a big difference in performance level. His peak is super high and narrow, obviously we've seen such examples in the past.

At least he's not like Andy Schleck or 2014 Nibali who would go from gruppetto material in Tour de Suisse/Dauphiné to world beater in the Tour just a few weeks later.

Vingegaard could easily have won Dauphiné last year.

 

[Jumbo Visma Fan :)]

At least he's not like Andy Schleck or 2014 Nibali who would go from gruppetto material in Tour de Suisse/Dauphiné to world beater in the Tour just a few weeks later.

Vingegaard could easily have won Dauphiné last year.

Yeah, Vingegaard has a solid base level unlike those Andy Schleck/Nibali years that he can be consistent before his mega peak in the Tour.

 

[Netserk]

2014 Nibali who would go from gruppetto material in Tour de Suisse/Dauphiné

Have you completely abandoned refraining from hyperbole?

 

[tobydawq]

Have you completely abandoned refraining from hyperbole?

What do you mean?

Didn't you just say the other day that Cancellara only had to be in shape for one day in the Tour each year? How is that not hyperbole? Or is it just something you expect from me but don't have to adhere to yourself? Or is it just because you like Nibali and dislike Cancellara?

 

[Netserk]

There was a time when you rarely overstated any case and would respond to others' hyperbole with an accurate correction. It's fine if you don't want that anymore and that I shouldn't expect that from you. It's not a moralistic demand for you to live up to a specific standard (that I implicitly would hold myself up to and thus deem myself superior to others), but a question of me having the wrong expectation and that I should change it.

I'm fine with discussing my statement about Cancellara and would gladly explain my reasoning (and how it related to the topic at hand of Van Aert and my comparison of him with Sagan) if you had brought that up in that thread when I wrote it.

 

[Extinction]

Nibali and Valverde covered the semi common niche of climbing classics + GTs. Contador tried and was good in Liege once, but his peak was over before Lombardia got really climby. Him not going for Liege makes sense.

Van Aert is more versatile than Boonen or Cancellara, but him covering Liege and Lombardia is quite the stretch IMO.

Had Contador been Italian, he would have won some Monuments.

 

[Extinction]

At least he's not like Andy Schleck or 2014 Nibali who would go from gruppetto material in Tour de Suisse/Dauphiné to world beater in the Tour just a few weeks later.

Vingegaard could easily have won Dauphiné last year.

Nah, Nibali in 2014 Dauphine was good, but growing, and then Contador and Froome crashed out in the Tour. The cobbled stage could have won it for him anyway, but with Froome not there and for Alberto's mechanical we shall never know.

 

[tobydawq]

Okay, I will admit that a 7th place is not gruppetto fodder. I should probably not have grouped him with Andy Schleck.

 

[Netserk]

But of course, I will be the first to admit that I enjoy trash-talking Cancellara (and Valverde).

 

[tobydawq]

There was a time when you rarely overstated any case and would respond to others' hyperbole with an accurate correction. It's fine if you don't want that anymore and that I shouldn't expect that from you. It's not a moralistic demand for you to live up to a specific standard (that I implicitly would hold myself up to and thus deem myself superior to others), but a question of me having the wrong expectation and that I should change it.

I'm fine with discussing my statement about Cancellara and would gladly explain my reasoning (and how it related to the topic at hand of Van Aert and my comparison of him with Sagan) if you had brought that up in that thread when I wrote it.

I honestly thought I remembered Nibali's Dauphiné as worse than it probably was.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Pogacar couldn't get Vingegaard off his wheel in Itzulia in 2021.

You mean wheelsucking to a guy who's already done a big chasing effort? Many guys managed to finish with Pog on that day. It pales in comparison with Ventoux, where he took off and quickly gained a healthy lead over world's top climbers. His big performance leap can't be denied: from a good Landa-like climber to a terminator. Those who are competitive with him most of the season suddenly have no chance at the Tour (see last year's big gaps). For a guy, who produces monster performances at the Tour, being just "competitive" in other races is not that much. Therefore I'll stick to my uber-peak statement.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

He would have to slim down, but maybe he could win in other ways. From a reduced group or an attack earlier in the race. A tactical move.

Roglic and Ala is/were of course riders that could cover a lot different races as well.
Roglic just never tried cobbles, except for the debacle last season. Which was just a freak accident.

In the past 20-30 years they just never let the GC-guys race these races because of the injury-risk.

Pidcock is another rider to mention.

Lets see how guys like Sheffield and so on develops. I think I read an article in the off-season that he would like to win the TdF someday. Of course, what someone would like and what is possible are two different things but the kid has ambition at least.

There is definitely a new generation of riders coming up and many of them are quite versatile.

How quickly we all forget our friend Roglic when the next gen version comes along. Roglic rides well all year long, winning in GTs, classics, and weeklong races. May he find his way back

 

[Krzysztof_O]

How quickly we all forget our friend Roglic when the next gen version comes along. Roglic rides well all year long, winning in GTs, classics, and weeklong races. May he find his way back

Yes, Roglic's base level is super high and he can win races at any time of the year, like Pog. I also hope Primoz will be back to 100% soon to deliver a spectacle at the Giro.

 

[Extinction]

How quickly we all forget our friend Roglic when the next gen version comes along. Roglic rides well all year long, winning in GTs, classics, and weeklong races. May he find his way back

Surely he is a great cyclist, but Roglic has not laid down the "law" in the most important moments.

 

[perico]

I honestly thought I remembered Nibali's Dauphiné as worse than it probably was.

I think he was way down early and gained a lot of it back because he went in a breakaway and won a stage (though I could be confusing his 2014 Dauphine with Aru in 2015 or 16).

 

[Netserk]

I think he was way down early and gained a lot of it back because he went in a breakaway and won a stage (though I could be confusing his 2014 Dauphine with Aru in 2015 or 16).

Look it up. He was 8th in the ITT in stage 1, 6th on the MTF of stage 2. He was between 6th and 8th in GC the whole race.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Nibali was the third best climber in 2014 Dauphine. Stage 2 tell us that, however he was nowhere near the level of Froome and Contador. Of course is one of the biggest IF in cycling history but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have a chance against Froome or Contador in the mountains.

 

[CyclistAbi]

How quickly we all forget our friend Roglic when the next gen version comes along. Roglic rides well all year long, winning in GTs, classics, and weeklong races. May he find his way back

Imagine the surprise when cyclists do start to realize he didn't retire just yet.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Look it up. He was 8th in the ITT in stage 1, 6th on the MTF of stage 2. He was between 6th and 8th in GC the whole race.

Perico thought wrong.

Re Vingegaard: I 'think' this whole debate is due to the use of SUPER peak as a phrase. I agree with Red Rick, that he peaks for the TDF (which is normal), rather than super peaks, since 2nd in T-A and Dauphne isn't exactly autobus fodder form.