Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Peyroteo94]

No, I meant really best riders of that period: Alejandro Valverde and Tom Boonen . They won a lot...

Good joke. Valverde always had a inferiority complex about Contador and we all know why... in their prime, Contador always kicked Valverde's a##.

 

[Brullnux]

Vingegaard's hoarding of stages is both less extreme and more recent

I think this is an unfair complaint re Pogacar's character, he's much more versatile than basically any GC rider for the last thirty years and he fights for the win when he can, which is quite often. Especially in a one week stage race, there's no real game play re saving yourself and letting the break go, or only marking one rider. I doubt he'll win more than 4/5 stages at the Giro, which is pretty close to Nibali and Froome at their peak, even though Pogacar is obviously a more talented rider.

 

[Cookster15]

Remember when Contador absolutely dominated the Giro in 2011?

Won a whole 2 stages.

Contador might have won only two stages but he did totally dominate that race.

Alberto Contador Wins 2011 Giro d'Italia | RoadCycling.com - Pro cycling news, race results, tests, interviews

Team Saxo Bank-SunGard's Alberto Contador has won the Giro d'Italia for the second time, easily capturing the race after finishing third in the final stage 21 time trial.

www.roadcycling.com

Contador was unchallenged in this year's Giro since taking the lead by winning the ninth stage on Mount Etna in Sicily.

Local favorites Scarponi and Nibali were unable to keep pace with him whenever he attacked on the mountain stages and they had to watch the Spaniard open a morale-sapping lead that he extended over the race.

 

[Red Rick]

I think this is an unfair complaint re Pogacar's character, he's much more versatile than basically any GC rider for the last thirty years and he fights for the win when he can, which is quite often. Especially in a one week stage race, there's no real game play re saving yourself and letting the break go, or only marking one rider. I doubt he'll win more than 4/5 stages at the Giro, which is pretty close to Nibali and Froome at their peak, even though Pogacar is obviously a more talented rider.

I don't think character has much to do it. It's a larger trend in cycling, and now Pogacar gets the stick cause he's both the clearest example and the most recent perpetrator. 4 out of 7 stages is crazy and it would have been 5 if he hadn't screwed up himself in stage 1.

 

[Brullnux]

I don't think character has much to do it. It's a larger trend in cycling, and now Pogacar gets the stick cause he's both the clearest example and the most recent perpetrator. 4 out of 7 stages is crazy and it would have been 5 if he hadn't screwed up himself in stage 1.

I think TJ's criticism is character-based though (it's selfish of him to keep fighting for the win after two stage wins etc.), as is the use of the word 'hoarding'.

The issue is basically that he's both a) extremely good and b) extremely aggressive. In one-week stage races this'll come to the fore more, over three weeks there's more conservativism/pragmatism, and he won't seek to win every stage he 'can' win. At which point, I don't think his 'hoarding' will be too far removed from Nibali '14 or Froome '13, or Nibali '13 – maybe a stage or two more, but mostly because of his versatility.

I'm also not sure if it is a broader trend in cycling beyond Vingo and Pogacar. Didn't last year's Giro have every mountain stage contested by the breakaway, or something like that?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

He gave 2 stages to Tiralongo and Rujano

And won the Vuelta 2012 thanks to this tactical move. Teddy should win at most 5 stages at the Giro and give another 5 to lesser cyclists. Who knows, maybe at some point he will profit from it?

 

[Salvarani]

I don't think character has much to do it. It's a larger trend in cycling, and now Pogacar gets the stick cause he's both the clearest example and the most recent perpetrator. 4 out of 7 stages is crazy and it would have been 5 if he hadn't screwed up himself in stage 1.

But Vingegaard has won even more stages in the past two seasons. He has done it both more extreme and recently!

Just like someone else pointed out… seems like people will just go at Pog for it, which was their point.

 

[Red Rick]

I think TJ's criticism is character-based though (it's selfish of him to keep fighting for the win after two stage wins etc.), as is the use of the word 'hoarding'.

The issue is basically that he's both a) extremely good and b) extremely aggressive. In one-week stage races this'll come to the fore more, over three weeks there's more conservativism/pragmatism, and he won't seek to win every stage he 'can' win. At which point, I don't think his 'hoarding' will be too far removed from Nibali '14 or Froome '13, or Nibali '13 – maybe a stage or two more, but mostly because of his versatility.

I'm also not sure if it is a broader trend in cycling beyond Vingo and Pogacar. Didn't last year's Giro have every mountain stage contested by the breakaway, or something like that?

The Giro in this regard benefitted from the negative racing of Almeida, Thomas and Roglic. Also basically no shorter punchy climbing finishes after easier stages where the opportunity cost to go for a stage is lower. You get the Bais breakaway win because nobody wants to chase for 6 hours to maybe get an uphill sprint in the headwind.

Roglic won 3 stages in Tirreno last year, then split 4 stage wins evenly with Evenepoel in Catalunya. Also won 3 stages in PN in 2021 before losing the GC. Rog also won 4 stages in the Vuelta twice.

The TdFs of the last 2 years have benefitted from the Vingegaard/Pogacar deadlocks.

I also think it's a bit of a trend that goes beyond just GC riders in that breakaways are more controlled than ever and the breakaway on flat stages is completely dead nowadays to the point it's just a few dudes reluctantly doing 250W and never getting more than 2 minutes.

 

[Extinction]

Pogacar is the real deal, don't act like we saw other riders winning as much as he wins. This dude is the best "hilly cobbled" rider in the world, he is the best in hilly classics, he is the best climber in the world (I think Vingegaard can recover better than him but if we put a super hard mountain classic, Pogacar would win IMHO), this dude is the best sprinter if we compared with other climbers or punchers and if he would care about TT, he would be able to be top5 in every WC TT. He is so much better than others that it is sad to see. What really hurts to them is the fact they can't even fight against him with different strategies because if Pogacar wants he just does his long range attacks and put everyone on the ropes.

Wait a second, until demonstrated, in a hard mountain classic, I bet on Vingegaard.

 

[scribers]

Contador might have won only two stages but he did totally dominate that race.

Alberto Contador Wins 2011 Giro d'Italia | RoadCycling.com - Pro cycling news, race results, tests, interviews

Team Saxo Bank-SunGard's Alberto Contador has won the Giro d'Italia for the second time, easily capturing the race after finishing third in the final stage 21 time trial.

www.roadcycling.com

Iirc. Winners subject to controls testing too. Which explains a lot in my pea brain

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Wait a second, until demonstrated, in a hard mountain classic, I bet on Vingegaard.

Nah, I would bet my money on Pog. He's shown pretty scary bazooka w/kg in the past (at last years Tdf and not only). Vingo killed him in the last week yes but also was dropped on some climbs earlier on. In a single day mountain race it's Pog victory by fast finish more often than not (Vingo probably could have an edge on ultra high-elevation stage like Galibier + Granon but other than that Pog can handle large amount of total climbing very well).

 

[Cookster15]

Nah, I would bet my money on Pog. He's shown pretty scary bazooka w/kg in the past (at last years Tdf and not only). Vingo killed him in the last week yes but also was dropped on some climbs earlier on. In a single day mountain race it's Pog victory by fast finish more often than not (Vingo probably could have an edge on ultra high-elevation stage like Galibier + Granon but other than that Pog could handle large amount of total climbing very well).

Yes, like this one.

Edit: If Pog was racing Itzulia , I'd back him to win the GC against Vingo on this parcours. TdF is different OC.

Tour de France 2023 Stage 6 results

Tour de France 2023 Stage 6 from Tarbes to Cauterets-Cambasque was won by Tadej PogaÄar before Jonas Vingegaard and Tobias Halland Johannessen. Jonas Vingegaard was leading the general classification.

www.procyclingstats.com

 

[Extinction]

Nah, I would bet my money on Pog. He's shown pretty scary bazooka w/kg in the past (at last years Tdf and not only). Vingo killed him in the last week yes but also was dropped on some climbs earlier on. In a single day mountain race it's Pog victory by fast finish more often than not (Vingo probably could have an edge on ultra high-elevation stage like Galibier + Granon but other than that Pog can handle large amount of total climbing very well).

I don't buy it. Vingegaard in the high mountains is on another level. He dropped Pog on first mountain last year, only to be tactically stupid on the Tourmalet, to then crush him. If Pog is riding the Giro, this is why.

 

[Froome]

Yes, like this one.

Tour de France 2023 Stage 6 results

Tour de France 2023 Stage 6 from Tarbes to Cauterets-Cambasque was won by Tadej PogaÄar before Jonas Vingegaard and Tobias Halland Johannessen. Jonas Vingegaard was leading the general classification.

www.procyclingstats.com

You need to take in consideration on that stage, pogacar acted like a wheelsucker until the last 2 kms, he can win some seconds like happened, but, even so wasn't that much. Just a bit more than 20 s.

Pogacar did what he had to do, nothing wrong with that, the blame is on Vingegaard who was naive, but let's not forget the last time Pogacar dropped really bad Vingegaard in the Tour, was in the Tour France 2021 stage 8.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I don't buy it. Vingegaard in the high mountains is on another level.

If you look at last two TdFs Pogacar was ahead of Vingo in mountain stages more often than not (despite losing those races). Explosivity matters as well. Plus we talk about one-day race (no recovery between stages matters). Let's say that out of 10 one-day mountain races:
1) Vingo drops Pog 3 times
2) Pog drops Vingo once
3) Pog wins by fast finish 6 times
Satisfied?

You need to take in consideration on that stage, pogacar acted like a wheelsucker until the last 2 kms, he can win some seconds like happened, but, even so wasn't that much. Just a bit more than 20 s.

Pogacar did what he had to do, nothing wrong with that, the blame is on Vingegaard who was naive, but let's not forget the last time Pogacar dropped really bad Vingegaard in the Tour, was in the Tour France 2021 stage 8.

Something like that could happen in a one-day race as well as Vingo has no chance to win at the finish. Pog wheelsucking to Vingo's wheel wins him most of such one-day races.

 

[Netserk]

Nah, I would bet my money on Pog. He's shown pretty scary bazooka w/kg in the past (at last years Tdf and not only). Vingo killed him in the last week yes but also was dropped on some climbs earlier on. In a single day mountain race it's Pog victory by fast finish more often than not (Vingo probably could have an edge on ultra high-elevation stage like Galibier + Granon but other than that Pog can handle large amount of total climbing very well).

If instead of the current Mont Ventoux Challenge it was a stand-alone Ventoux time-trial, would you still favour Pogi?

Sprint would do him no good, it's 55 minutes full gas. I'd favour Vingegaard 2-1.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

If instead of the current Mont Ventoux Challenge it was a stand-alone Ventoux time-trial, would you still favour Pogi?

Sprint would do him no good, it's 55 minutes full gas. I'd favour Vingegaard 2-1.

It's a different thing. In a pure ITT effort Vingo would be the favourite on such a long climb. But Pog is strong enough to hold his wheel more often than 50% of the time (in a one-day race). On a 20-30 minute uphill ITT I would say chances are similar for both.

 

[velaso montador]

Are you guys debating vingegaard vs a hurt version of pogacar again? Why dont you guys make it easy for yourself and compare vinge to pogacar in 2021 much more easy isnt it? Would save you alot of time.

You could add that the gap has only increased so in that sense i see why you compare him to a hurt/lesser pogacar version but that in itself is really insecure and telling behaviour which the answer within itself lies.

 

[Netserk]

Why dont you guys make it easy for yourself and compare vinge to pogacar in 2021 much more easy isnt it? Would save you alot of time.

Pogi was stronger in the first two weeks of the Tour last year than he was in 2021.

 

[kn0s]

If pogi can lose a TdF because of going deep following a few attacks on the flat/downhill in 22. Surely going crazy on Marie Blanc/Tourmalet had some effect on Jonas for a few days.

 

[Froome]

It's a different thing. In a pure ITT effort Vingo would be the favourite on such a long climb. But Pog is strong enough to hold his wheel more often than 50% of the time (in a one-day race). On a 20-30 minute uphill ITT I would say chances are similar for both.

In a unipuerto stage like LPDBF, puy de dome, Gran colombier, Pogacar will always take some seconds because he has more explosiveness in the end, but the gains will always be residuals.

Hard mountain stage is more about endurance, the scenario changes.

 

[Cookster15]

Pogi was stronger in the first two weeks of the Tour last year than he was in 2021.

Then his loss of condition due to his LBL crash and broken wrist cight up with him in the 3rd week. Paryticularly after he emptied himself in the stage 16 TT.

 

[velaso montador]

Pogi was stronger in the first two weeks of the Tour last year than he was in 2021.

Now do you honestly think Pog with 4 weeks of training was 100% version of himself? And second question with those circumstances do you even think vingegaard would be strong enough to even finish the tour? (rode the tour with pain , that in itself takes energy away from the body in a 3 week GT, even he said so during the tour he had pain holding his hand on the bar)

Just genuinly curious to what level one are able to have perspective or not.

 

[Blanco]

Good joke. Valverde always had a inferiority complex about Contador and we all know why... in their prime, Contador always kicked Valverde's a##.

No Joke. Contador was always a better climber, but Valverde was always a better racer. Just like Vinge and Pog...

 

[Cookster15]

In a unipuerto stage like LPDBF, puy de dome, Gran colombier, Pogacar will always take some seconds because he has more explosiveness in the end, but the gains will always be residuals.

Hard mountain stage is more about endurance, the scenario changes.

The 24 seconds Jonas lost to Pogi on Cauteret wasn't "residual". IMO without the LBL crash I don't think he would have cracked on Loze.