Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Krzysztof_O]

In a unipuerto stage like LPDBF, puy de dome, Gran colombier, Pogacar will always take some seconds because he has more explosiveness in the end, but the gains will always be residuals.

Hard mountain stage is more about endurance, the scenario changes.

Its not about time gains but about wins. If Vingo cant drop Pog he loses. Pog wins more than half of one day mountain races vs Vingo (while losing more time in total but its not GC).

 

[Froome]

The 24 seconds Jonas lost to Pogi on Cauteret wasn't "residual". IMO without the LBL crash I don't think he would have cracked on Loze.

To be fair, the difference on Granon it wasn't either the real difference, even if i think vingegaard would gain 1 min on him, because Pogacar was naive on following Roglic and pushing on Galibier.

I talked about the situation on tourmalet because it has repercussions on Cauterets, just like Vingegaard benefited from Pogacar being naive before granon.

 

[Cookster15]

No Joke. Contador was always a better climber, but Valverde was always a better racer. Just like Vinge and Pog...

That's not how I recall Valverde? Valverde was the best climber who could sprint. That is how he won his world title. Most of AVs wins were because he stayed in contention for the hardest MTFs then out-sprinted whoever was left. Contador was better everywhere but didn't have a sprint like AV.

 

[Froome]

Its not about time gains but about wins. If Vingo cant drop Pog he loses. Pog wins more than half of one day mountain races vs Vingo (while losing more time in total but its not GC).

It will depend on how really hard that mountain classic are. On mont ventoux challenge i would bet always on Vingegaard. On Il lombardia i will bet always on Pogacar.

 

[velaso montador]

why is it the same people over and over that force a debate most others dont even consider a debate, that in itself are very telling. Its a non debate for everyone else it really is.

 

[Peyroteo94]

No Joke. Contador was always a better climber, but Valverde was always a better racer. Just like Vinge and Pog...

Don't see how both cases are similar... Vingegaard and Pogacar are very close in climbing and TT ability. The difference between Contador and Valverde was massive in climbing and TT ability. Valverde was a better all around cyclist. If he was a better rider/racer? Nevermind.

 

[kn0s]

Now do you honestly think Pog with 4 weeks of training was 100% version of himself? And second question with those circumstances do you even think vingegaard would be strong enough to even finish the tour? (rode the tour with pain , that in itself takes energy away from the body in a 3 week GT, even he said so during the tour he had pain holding his hand on the bar)

Just genuinly curious to what level one are able to have perspective or not.

Pogacar was set to take a break from training the day after the LBL crash, think normally it would be around a small week. He was training again the week after the crash. Granted the home trainer is not on the same level as on the road, but I always thought this "base shape" was blown way out of proportion.

Now lacking racing up to the TdF I think was one of the reasons he got slapped on Marie Blanc.

 

[Extinction]

If you look at last two TdFs Pogacar was ahead of Vingo in mountain stages more often than not (despite losing the Tour). Explosivity matters as well. Plus we talk about one-day race (no recovery between stages matters). Let's say that out of 10 one-day mountain races:
1) Vingo drops Pog 3 times
2) Pog drops Vingo once
3) Pog wins by fast finish 6 times
Satisfied?



Something like that could happen in a one-day race as well as Vingo has no chance to win at the finish. Pog wheelsucking to Vingo's wheel wins him most of such one-day races.

If Vingegaard is at his best on a real multi-col race, he wins.

 

[scribers]

If Vingegaard is at his best on a real multi-col race, he wins.

This is the equivalent of saying if mvp is at his best in P-R he wins.

But what’s wild is we are even discussing how close it might be

 

[Extinction]

This is the equivalent of saying if mvp is at his best in P-R he wins.

But what’s wild is we are even discussing how close it might be

I don't think so, in P-R there are so many variables, even for MVDP, he could crash, flat, but in the high mountains it's watts per kilos baby and here, until proven otherwise, Vingegaard is the king.

 

[scribers]

Fair enough. Time will tell

 

[Blanco]

That's not how I recall Valverde? Valverde was the best climber who could sprint. That is how he won his world title. Most of AVs wins were because he stayed in contention for the hardest MTFs then out-sprinted whoever was left. Contador was better everywhere but didn't have a sprint like AV.

Yeah, he stayed in contention at least 133 times...

 

[Cookster15]

I don't buy it. Vingegaard in the high mountains is on another level. He dropped Pog on first mountain last year, only to be tactically stupid on the Tourmalet, to then crush him. If Pog is riding the Giro, this is why.

Not sure you should read too much into last year? LBL crash interrupted Pogacar’s preparation and his recovery powers. That’s why he cracked on Loze after emptying himself the day before in the TT.

This year UAE want a GT title. The best way to get that is for Pog to ride the Giro and hope that a modified race schedule, smarter tactics and staying healthy can pressure Vingegaard at the TdF. I think Pog will keep us hoping but fade in the 3rd week. He might crack one day like Contador did in 2011.

 

[Ripper]

Not sure you should read too much into last year? LBL crash interrupted Pogacar’s preparation and his recovery powers. That’s why he cracked on Loze after emptying himself the day before in the TT.

This year UAE want a GT title. The best way to get that is for Pog to ride the Giro and hope that a modified race schedule, smarter tactics and staying healthy can pressure Vingegaard at the TdF. I think Pog will keep us hoping but fade in the 3rd week. He might crack one day like Contador did in 2011.

Worth noting that much of the steady Z2 fun of base training could have been done on a trainer. If anything, I think Pojo would have found his legs more in the latter stages, or at least faded less.

This said, I generally agree. I'm also not even sure about how true a target the Tour is. Giro, Olympic gold and WC sound mighty nice.

 

[proffate]

I have zero problem with a sportsman or a team trying to win. Now, if he was entering business park crits against amateurs, it would be different.

I've seen lots of wt pros do this... Lachlan Morton, George Bennett, Alex Howes to name a few. Obviously that is not counting CT or PCT riders.

I can tell you that complaining about this injustice does not go over well, basically ever.

 

[proffate]

That's not how I recall Valverde? Valverde was the best climber who could sprint. That is how he won his world title. Most of AVs wins were because he stayed in contention for the hardest MTFs then out-sprinted whoever was left. Contador was better everywhere but didn't have a sprint like AV.

Plus he got a ton of lower podium steps specifically because he refused to race for the win. He was a very negative racer most of his career.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

If Vingegaard is at his best on a real multi-col race, he wins.

I dont recall Vingo beating Pog on stages like Cauterets and Morzine last year. Pog wins by fast finish more often than not but likely loses in terms of total time (due to Vingo able to drop him more often than vice versa).

 

[tobydawq]

I think TJ's criticism is character-based though (it's selfish of him to keep fighting for the win after two stage wins etc.), as is the use of the word 'hoarding'.

The issue is basically that he's both a) extremely good and b) extremely aggressive. In one-week stage races this'll come to the fore more, over three weeks there's more conservativism/pragmatism, and he won't seek to win every stage he 'can' win. At which point, I don't think his 'hoarding' will be too far removed from Nibali '14 or Froome '13, or Nibali '13 – maybe a stage or two more, but mostly because of his versatility.

I'm also not sure if it is a broader trend in cycling beyond Vingo and Pogacar. Didn't last year's Giro have every mountain stage contested by the breakaway, or something like that?

Nibali '13? He won two stages...

 

[tobydawq]

That's not how I recall Valverde? Valverde was the best climber who could sprint. That is how he won his world title. Most of AVs wins were because he stayed in contention for the hardest MTFs then out-sprinted whoever was left. Contador was better everywhere but didn't have a sprint like AV.

No, Contador was not better everywhere than Valverde, lol, are you kidding me?

 

[Cookster15]

No, Contador was not better everywhere than Valverde, lol, are you kidding me?

That’s fine I know you are a big fan of AV and I was not until his thoroughly deserved world title won me over. Okay, Contador was primarily a grand tour rider. In grand tours AC was better than AV almost everywhere that counts for GC. In one day races of course not. Sorry I should be more careful

 

[tobydawq]

That’s fine I know you are a big fan of AV and I was not until his thoroughly deserved world title won me over. Okay, Contador was primarily a grand tour rider. In grand tours AC was better than AV almost everywhere that counts for GC. In one day races of course not. Sorry I should be more careful

Fair enough if you only meant GT wise. Hard to argue that Valverde was better there

 

[Extinction]

Not sure you should read too much into last year? LBL crash interrupted Pogacar’s preparation and his recovery powers. That’s why he cracked on Loze after emptying himself the day before in the TT.

This year UAE want a GT title. The best way to get that is for Pog to ride the Giro and hope that a modified race schedule, smarter tactics and staying healthy can pressure Vingegaard at the TdF. I think Pog will keep us hoping but fade in the 3rd week. He might crack one day like Contador did in 2011.

Ok, however, the same could be said of the Granon stage in 22; that he, Pog, got outmaneuvered, made tactical mistakes, true, but when it came down to it Vingegaard simply destroyed him. Perhaps last year gives an even a bigger excuse as to why Pog was so dominated by Jonas, athough time is running out to have excuses, otherwise we must simply conclude that Vingegaard is just superior on the cols. If Pog truely wanted to take back his crown at the Tour, then doing the Giro first for the win isn't the best approach, thus maybe he feels unsure about whether or not he can win the Tour again against the Dane?

 

[Extinction]

I dont recall Vingo beating Pog on stages like Cauterets and Morzine last year. Pog wins by fast finish more often than not but likely loses in terms of total time (due to Vingo able to drop him more often than vice versa).

But Cauterets was such a tactical disaster on the part of the Dane, who, after not droping Pog on the Tourmalet, should have made the Slovenian work; whereas at Morzine Jonas was riding just to defend his colossal lead over Tadej, so there was no need to drop him (although who knows, had he wanted to, how things would have gone?).

 

[Froome]

But Cauterets was such a tactical disaster on the part of the Dane, who, after not droping Pog on the Tourmalet, should have made the Slovenian work; whereas at Morzine Jonas was riding just to defend his colossal lead over Tadej, so there was no need to drop him (although who knows, had he wanted to, how things would have gone?).

I think Tourmalet was more a tatical disaster by Jumbo visma. It was a tatical disaster how they did aspin and all the Tourmalet except for the last 3 Kms.

 

[Red Rick]

Just as I was feeling nostalgic this weekend we have a good old school unprovoked Contador v Valverde *** fight