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Teams & Riders Vingegaard and Pogacar in 2022 and 2023 Tours de France

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yaf

yaf

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Netserk said:
Yes, just like the year before.
Click to expand...
U always up ur game when a rival sets the bar. In 2022 tour pog didn't knew vingegaards ceiling and thought it would be enough to be as good as he was in 2021 to win the tour. What did vingegaard do after 21 tour, he pushed his training to the limits to better pog and he did it. If u see jonas performance from 21 to 22, there is a big jump.

In 2023 pog knew if he is to win the tour again he needs to up his numbers significantly and he did exactly that by dropping jonas multiple times on 30 min climbs. If u saw the jumbo visma all in documentary released recently, Jonas was heard speaking to zeeman saying he was surprised with pog in that he is way better than last year. The only pbm for pog was the injury, he couldn't sustain the power for 3 weeks with the reasons i mentioned earlier.
 
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Netserk

Netserk

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Gigs_98 said:
Had you asked people before that stage how big Pogacars time gap to anyone bar Vingegaard would be, I think the answer would have looked pretty much like the actual result. Gaining 1'30 over the Yates bros doesn't seem like much when you make it sound like a monster TT with huge time gaps, but that's not at all what it was. The time gaps were really small throughout the field so 1'30 was a huge margin.

I mean, clearly the gap between Vingegaard and Pogacar was a result of different levels of recovery. But I just don't think you can call that "Pogacar underperforming" if his recovery compared to the rest of the field was exactly how it was supposed to be.
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Yeah.

3rd to 10th in the final GC in that ITT:

35'31" Bilbao
+0'03" Yates, S.
+0'17" Yates, A.
+0'36" Gaudu
+0'41" Rodriguez
+0'45" Gall
+1'42" Hindley
+2'43" Martin
 
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Netserk

Netserk

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yaf said:
U always up ur game when a rival sets the bar. In 2022 tour pog didn't knew vingegaards ceiling and thought it would be enough to be as good as he was in 2021 to win the tour. What did vingegaard do after 21 tour, he pushed his training to the limits to better pog and he did it. If u see jonas performance from 21 to 22, there is a big jump.

In 2023 pog knew if he is to win the tour again he needs to up his numbers significantly and he did exactly that by dropping jonas multiple times on 30 min climbs. If u saw the jumbo visma all in documentary released recently, Jonas was heard speaking to zeeman saying he was surprised with pog in that he is way better than last year. The only pbm for pog was the injury, he couldn't sustain the power for 3 weeks with the reasons i mentioned earlier.
Click to expand...
Vingegaard was 28" faster in the mountain stages before the ITT.
 
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Salvarani

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Red Rick said:
Pogacar underperforming is a much more plausible explanation for the 1'38 time gap than 'top rider just magically gets 20W faster for no reason'. The entire field was suffering from fatigue and most were likely doing worse numbers than they would have done in a fresh ITT.

Pogacar and Vingegaard were miles and miles better than everyone else on the big climbs, and they were also the best ITTers of the GC riders. 1'30 over the Yates bro's simply is not that much in a hard ~ 35 minute ITT when you're supposed to be the one recovering better.

Compared to 2022, Pogacar was putting Vingegaard under severe pressure on the climbs between Cambasque and Morgine. Clearly an improvement in relative level over 2022, and then he goes from losing 9s in a 50 minute ITT to losing 1'38 in a 35 minute ITT?

It's like asking when gaps in mountain stages are the biggest vs when performances are highest. 0 kJ in legs unipuerto is definitely when performances are highest, but it's sure as hell not when gaps are greatest.

IMO what really happened Pogacar had a big gap over the rest of the field so people didn't question if he shouldn't have put much more time into the schmuks, which in turn is treating Pogacar like your regular top GC rider instead of Tadej mother******** Pogacar
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Thats cute. Vingegaard said he was doing numbers he had never seen before. Explain that?
 
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Salvarani

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yaf said:
U always up ur game when a rival sets the bar. In 2022 tour pog didn't knew vingegaards ceiling and thought it would be enough to be as good as he was in 2021 to win the tour. What did vingegaard do after 21 tour, he pushed his training to the limits to better pog and he did it. If u see jonas performance from 21 to 22, there is a big jump.

In 2023 pog knew if he is to win the tour again he needs to up his numbers significantly and he did exactly that by dropping jonas multiple times on 30 min climbs. If u saw the jumbo visma all in documentary released recently, Jonas was heard speaking to zeeman saying he was surprised with pog in that he is way better than last year. The only pbm for pog was the injury, he couldn't sustain the power for 3 weeks with the reasons i mentioned earlier.
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Yup, this is the one. Agreed.
 
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Netserk

Netserk

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Red Rick said:
Pogacar underperforming is a much more plausible explanation for the 1'38 time gap than 'top rider just magically gets 20W faster for no reason'. The entire field was suffering from fatigue and most were likely doing worse numbers than they would have done in a fresh ITT.

Pogacar and Vingegaard were miles and miles better than everyone else on the big climbs, and they were also the best ITTers of the GC riders. 1'30 over the Yates bro's simply is not that much in a hard ~ 35 minute ITT when you're supposed to be the one recovering better.

Compared to 2022, Pogacar was putting Vingegaard under severe pressure on the climbs between Cambasque and Morgine. Clearly an improvement in relative level over 2022, and then he goes from losing 9s in a 50 minute ITT to losing 1'38 in a 35 minute ITT?

It's like asking when gaps in mountain stages are the biggest vs when performances are highest. 0 kJ in legs unipuerto is definitely when performances are highest, but it's sure as hell not when gaps are greatest.

IMO what really happened Pogacar had a big gap over the rest of the field so people didn't question if he shouldn't have put much more time into the schmuks, which in turn is treating Pogacar like your regular top GC rider instead of Tadej mother******** Pogacar
Click to expand...
At T3 before he sat up, he was 22" faster (after ~37 minutes) on what was at that point a 53+ km/h route. So if they did the 2023 TT as stage 20 in 2022, Vingegaard would likely have won by a wide margin then again.
 
Froome

Froome

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Salvarani said:
Wasnt talking to you.

And Vingegaard was the outlier. Not anything else.
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Yes, but this is a forum, so it's supposed we all talk to each other.

Pogacar did a solid TT, a good TT, but it wasn't extraordinary like he did in 2020. Like i said, he himself said could had gone 40 s faster at best. On that case, he would had done a incredible performance.

Both premises are true.
 
Netserk

Netserk

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scribers said:
we all know why this has veered back to pointless Vingo comparisons in the pogi thread. Just saying a gaggle of you wanted a mou free thread and this is what we get in it’s place
Click to expand...
The current discussion was started by @Tim Cahill and @Cookster15, then @bNator, @Gratemans, @Krzysztof_O, @kn0s, @Red Rick, @Gigs_98, @QueenStagiaire, @topcat, @Nick2413, @Froome, @Peyroteo94, @Netserk, @yaf, @Max Rockatansky, @Salvarani joined in that order.

Page 529 - Teams & Riders - Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

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velaso montador

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Red Rick said:
Most of the talk is if Pogacar underperformed in the Combloux ITT or not. Hardly off topic.
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scribers said:
Can we please move the Vingo conversations to the Vingo thread? It’s not relevant to this season and is a pointless comparison. Thank you for your kind cooperation.
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This is fine dont think anyone bother at all and indeed he underperformed imo by his standards. But with all due respect if this wasnt basicly happening every other day I wouldnt even suggest it and hardly think ppl would bother at all but since they do its a premsise its gatekeeping too I dont see the harm by a disignated thread for that topic since it seems to heavy alot on some ppls mind, then can go all inn on it, can talk as much as one want around how effected Pogacar was after he broke his wrist or not and compare riders to that version and events which acurred based on that as much as one like and others dont need to get it forced down their throat - every day. Pogacar broke his wrist he lost the tour everything else is guesswork and if it didnt happen so much well yeah just a friendly suggestion and my two cents. :sweatsmile:
 
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Froome

Froome

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Logic-is-your-friend said:
Well, his focus has been far more on becoming solely a GT rider. In 2021 Pogacar already won 2 monuments. In 2022 he won one monument and also won Strade and Tre Valli. The moment Vingegaard starts shifting focus or Pogacar focusses on just one goal (TDF), i think that is when you can make a definitive claim.
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If the debate is about who is the best all rounder, then the answer is Pogacar.

I guess the debate was about who is the best GT rider.
 
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VayaVayaVaya

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Red Rick said:
Pogacar underperforming is a much more plausible explanation for the 1'38 time gap than 'top rider just magically gets 20W faster for no reason'. The entire field was suffering from fatigue and most were likely doing worse numbers than they would have done in a fresh ITT.

Pogacar and Vingegaard were miles and miles better than everyone else on the big climbs, and they were also the best ITTers of the GC riders. 1'30 over the Yates bro's simply is not that much in a hard ~ 35 minute ITT when you're supposed to be the one recovering better.

Compared to 2022, Pogacar was putting Vingegaard under severe pressure on the climbs between Cambasque and Morgine. Clearly an improvement in relative level over 2022, and then he goes from losing 9s in a 50 minute ITT to losing 1'38 in a 35 minute ITT?

It's like asking when gaps in mountain stages are the biggest vs when performances are highest. 0 kJ in legs unipuerto is definitely when performances are highest, but it's sure as hell not when gaps are greatest.

IMO what really happened Pogacar had a big gap over the rest of the field so people didn't question if he shouldn't have put much more time into the schmuks, which in turn is treating Pogacar like your regular top GC rider instead of Tadej mother******** Pogacar
Click to expand...
Yeah except for the fact that all the analysis showing gaps from first to second and second to third and to tenth, etc show that if you take Vingegaard out of the race, Pogacar would have had a historic victory on par with what happened in 2020.

And then you layer in this quote from Vingegaard himself after the stage: "It was one of my best days on the bike ever, so good that at one point I even doubted my power metre, it was showing so high.“
 
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Vino attacks everyone

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I think what is likely the most "correct" statements about these 2 riders are:

1. They are way better than any other rider who considers riding fast up hills and mountains at the moment (including Roglic)

2. I believe Pogi's "floor" level is extremely high making him able to win most races from february to October, while Vingegaard seems to have a slightly steeper form curve (I'd give pogi a 70/30 win/loss ratio if they meet outside of a gt)

3. Vingegaard is a better long mountain (perhaps high altitude?) climber. If the relevant climb is 45+ minutes I give him a 60/40 win/loss ratio and this ratio becomes higher in a 2nd/3rd week gt based on my next point.

4. Vingegaard recovers better (or perhaps is less wasteful in his use of energy) over 3 weeks.

5. Pogi is far more explosive (duh)

6. I believe Pogi has a better "engine" or whatever you want to call the ability to perfrom well over 250km/do 80km solo effort.


Vingegaard would win the 22/23 tours no matter what prep Pogi had and I think this is borderline obvious.
 
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