Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Peyroteo94]

1. Globalization isn't necessarily a factor when we discuss level of competition.
You may have 120 nations starting in Strade but it won't mean a thing if you don't have MVDP and WVA. You may have a "friendly" between Slovenia, Netherlands and Belgium and you'd have a better field than the "global thingy" if you have Pogacar and Van's.

2. I can agree with that. But it could be also said the other way around, can't it? Riders back in the day could do a lot more than today's, so they might as well be better overall?

Edit: My point is, both things can be twisted so they fit a narrative. Meaning, we don't have an objective measure of competition and rider's level.
So if we are to conclude that someone is best ever/goat (essentially the same thing), the only thing we can somewhat objectively compare is the wins and achievements.

How do you see a race (in this case RVV) where 9 Belgians are in the top10? Were belgians really better than riders from other nations? Or cycling wasn't relevant in other nations? Cycling wasn't developed in the 60s and 70s and just exploded later in popularity.
Is really Joe Davis better than the rocket? Just because he achieved more?

 

[Peyroteo94]

1. Globalization isn't necessarily a factor when we discuss level of competition.
You may have 120 nations starting in Strade but it won't mean a thing if you don't have MVDP and WVA. You may have a "friendly" between Slovenia, Netherlands and Belgium and you'd have a better field than the "global thingy" if you have Pogacar and Van's.

2. I can agree with that. But it could be also said the other way around, can't it? Riders back in the day could do a lot more than today's, so they might as well be better overall?

Edit: My point is, both things can be twisted so they fit a narrative. Meaning, we don't have an objective measure of competition and rider's level.
So if we are to conclude that someone is best ever/goat (essentially the same thing), the only thing we can somewhat objectively compare is the wins and achievements.

Of course not. Specialization means riders are targetting specific races to maximize their chances of winning. A rider to win a lot like Pogacar needs to be good all season and beat the very best in their favourite races/terrain. For example, if Vingegaard/Remco/MVP tried to race all important races in the season, they wouldn't be so good and so in shape for some specific races (Vingegaard in the Tour, MVP in cobbled classics, etc).

 

[Rob5091]

Can't even make a simple statement about scheduling, have to milk it for content for weeks.

We had all this messing around last year with Mrs Pogi going on about how super secret and super important Pogi's racing schedule was.

 

[YavorD]

Of course not. Specialization means riders are targetting specific races to maximize their chances of winning. A rider to win a lot like Pogacar needs to be good all season and beat the very best in their favourite races/terrain. For example, if Vingegaard/Remco/MVP tried to race all important races in the season, they wouldn't be so good and so in shape for some specific races (Vingegaard in the Tour, MVP in cobbled classics, etc).

Which doesn't mean that Pogacar is automatically better than Merckx, as some fanboys here try to claim.
Just because MVDP specialises in classics doesn't mean that he's better than De Vlaeminck, does it?

 

[Peyroteo94]

Which doesn't mean that Pogacar is automatically better than Merckx, as some fanboys here try to claim.
Just because MVDP specialises in classics doesn't mean that he's better than De Vlaeminck, does it?

No but it means he will be better prepared to win those specific races in April because he peaks por them unlike Pogacar who needs to be great all season. So Pogacar is in disadvantage just like he will be in the Tour.

 

[Gratemans]

My god are we still going on about this? They're both great.
(And they both made/make watching cycling less exciting, but that's not their fault of course.)

 

[hayneplane]

Pogacar won't be the best ever until he wins MSR, PR and La Vuelta (which seems certain).
He doesn't need to have as many victories as Merckx (and he won't have likely) but he needs to win every big race to really be the GOAT.

He at least needs to win La Vuelta to complete the Grand Tour set but specialisation in the sport makes it so different to the 1970s and at least 10 times harder to win the variety of races that Merckx did.

It’s not as if he is fighting in a lean era of the sport. MVDP (classics), Remco (Hilly classics) and Jonas (Grand Tour GC and climbing) are all objectively contenders for top 3 all time in their respective specialties yet in the same season Pog has shown he can beat them all.

 

[Froome]

How is the same thing racing against 200 profis from three countries for a decade and racing against 2500 from whole planet for a decade?

It's not that important if are 200 profits for three countries or 2500 from the whole planet, because even if they are 2500 from the whole planet, they are easily beaten by pogacar.

Pogacar only has 3/4 guys who are competition for him, even if they are 2500 from the whole planet.

 

[Peyroteo94]

It's not that important if are 200 profits for three countries or 2500 from the whole planet, because even if they are 2500 from the whole planet, they are easily beaten by pogacar.

Pogacar only has 3/4 guys who are competition for him, even if they are 2500 from the whole planet.

Odds of the 3/4 guys (from the 2500 group) being better than 3/4 guys from the 250 group are substantially higher. This is simple logic...

 

[YavorD]

He at least needs to win La Vuelta to complete the Grand Tour set but specialisation in the sport makes it so different to the 1970s and at least 10 times harder to win the variety of races that Merckx did.

It’s not as if he is fighting in a lean era of the sport. MVDP (classics), Remco (Hilly classics) and Jonas (Grand Tour GC and climbing) are all objectively contenders for top 3 all time in their respective specialties yet in the same season Pog has shown he can beat them all.

But without MSR and PR he cant be crowned "the best ever" or GOAT.

As i said earlier, it's understandable that he won't achieve the sheer number of wins. If he is able to be as dominant as he was in 2024 dor the next 2-3 seasons and wins what he is missing as big wins he should be considered GOAT or best ever (which is essentially the same regardless of how much fan boys around here try to claim otherwise).


Also, how do you know how easy or hard winning races is or has been so you say "10 times easie/harder"? One could say that with all the specific trainings and aero bikes, and nutrition specialists, and sports medicine, and much better roads winning races today is easier.
I mean, the whole tens of millions of dollars teams should make it rather easier to win if you have the necessary talents?

 

[Cookster15]

A rider to win a lot like Pogacar needs to be good all season and beat the very best in their favourite races/terrain

The only other rider in recent times I can think of who was good all season and also competitive in grand tours was Valverde - but at a much lower level than Pogacar. But Valverde wasn't competitive at races like RVV.

But if Pogacar races and rides smart I don't think it should be such a disadvantage for him to race one day classics, other than the risk of crash and injury. Even in 2024, despite complaining about fatigue after winning the Tour he still went on to win the worlds and other classics. I doubt he specifically peaks for any of these other races except for the big targets like grand tours and worlds. Pog will probably do a proper peak for PR if he attempts it.

 

[Peyroteo94]

The only other rider in recent times I can think of who was good all season and also competitive in grand tours was Valverde - but at a much lower level than Pogacar. But Valverde wasn't competitive at races like RVV.

But if Pogacar races and rides smart I don't think it should be such a disadvantage for him to race one day classics, other than the risk of crash and injury. Even in 2024, despite complaining about fatigue after winning the Tour he still went on to win the worlds and other classics. I doubt he specifically peaks for any of these other races except for the big targets like grand tours and worlds. Pog will probably do a proper peak for PR if he attempts it.

I believe he doesn't peak but he prepares specifically for them. He already said his training is influenced by his next race so he is just training specifically for classics (small hills/bergs). Vingegaard is already focusing in the Tour.

 

[Froome]

Odds of the 3/4 guys (from the 2500 group) being better than 3/4 guys from the 250 group are substantially higher. This is simple logic...

By the same logic, Pogacar should had more than 3/4 guys who could fight against him, since there is a group of 2500 instead of just 200.

 

[James M]

No but it means he will be better prepared to win those specific races in April because he peaks por them unlike Pogacar who needs to be great all season. So Pogacar is in disadvantage just like he will be in the Tour.

Wins is what defines greatness. Pogacar is the best rider of all time by so much its a joke even by every measureable factual number there is to the point its actually common sense, its just factual and undisputable.

Best is actually factual and based on facts on measurable numbers and entirely different from greatness and if people cant differ the two, who cares.

 

[AmRacer]

Pogi will probably reach 100 wins by June, at a young age. But is he one of the youngest getting to 100?

 

[James M]

We might see Pog v. Van der Poel at SB, praise Keir.

If it happens.

 

[AmRacer]

If it happens.

It's off

 

[Froome]

Wins is what defines greatness. Pogacar is the best rider of all time by so much its a joke even by every measureable factual number there is to the point its actually common sense, its just factual and undisputable.

Best is actually factual and based on facts on measurable numbers and entirely different from greatness and if people cant differ the two, who cares.

Merckx have better numbers than Pogacar, like more GTs, more classics, more PR, more MSR.

 

[AmRacer]

Merckx have better numbers than Pogacar, like more GTs, more classics, more PR, more MSR.

But the farmers.....

 

[Netserk]

Statistically speaking, there should be hundreds if not thousands of better writers than Shakespeare today, so he can't be in contention for GOAT.

 

[Peyroteo94]

By the same logic, Pogacar should had more than 3/4 guys who could fight against him, since there is a group of 2500 instead of just 200.

No. This shows his level is probably higher than anyone who rode a bike before because his competition is bigger (in quantity) and closer due to professionalism (top riders had way more resources than bottom riders in the Merckx's era compared to this era. In this era, every rider does only cycling and not other tasks or jobs) but they still can't come close to him.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

The notion that it's generally more difficult to dominate in a bigger sample of professional riders is pretty straighforward to understand. Take the largest out of 300 random numbers and the largest out of 3000. The level required to dominate the larger group is higher with a very high probability. National champions hardly ever become world champions etc. If Pogacar had to rival only guys from Slovenia and Italy (for instance) his dominance would be absurd even in 2021-2023. Not saying that he's greater than Merckx (Eddy's achievement advantage is too obvious for now) but this factor definitely accounts for something. Merckx is the GOAT but IMO Pogacar has the best level ever.

 

[Peyroteo94]

The notion that it's generally more difficult to dominate in a bigger sample of professional riders is pretty straighforward to understand. Take the largest out of 300 random numbers and the largest out of 3000. The level required to dominate the larger group is higher with a very high probability. National champions hardly ever become world champions etc. If Pogacar had to rival only guys from Slovenia and Italy (for instance) his dominance would be absurd even in 2021-2023. Not saying that he's greater than Merckx (Eddy's achievement advantage is too obvious) but this factor definitely accounts for something. Merckx is the GOAT but IMO Pogacar has the best level ever.

God bless this post please. Best post of the year! I completely agree with this!

 

[Peyroteo94]

Can't wait for the second Pogenheimer in 5 days. People are complaining and we don't even have a full startlist.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

What a boring discussion. Almost as boring as a race where the winner attacks from 80km out.