Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[scribers]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1911656940351914246

View: https://x.com/Miroir2Cyclisme/status/1911656940351914246?t=WJH5JRZv5BiDcPvjr8CDKQ&s=19


Anybody saying vdp was stronger yesterday has to see this clip. On the crash pog stopped for 28 secs and still managed to get the gap to 12 secs but once they got to the technical parts of the cobbles vdp took 1 or 2 secs per corner and after his 2nd bike change the adrenaline went out of the chase. I would say strength wise both were on the same level and would have come to the velodrome together and u never know what could happen in the sprint after 260 kms of relentless racing

The brakes were rubbing immediately on that bike he switched to.

That’s the race tho. P-R is a luck merchant affair. You can control the little things that make a difference as Alpecin has mastered.

 

[Gigs_98]

From what I can find in searches, you made no mention of this in July 2022. You did however write the following after his win in Ronde '23:

Perhaps unsurprising that you got some pushback?

Ah I might have mixed up arguing this right after the 2022 Tour and arguing about the relevance of the 2022 stage after the 2023 Ronde. I fear I don't have as much time as you to make sure I didn't write about this in 2022 as well. In any case, you don't think I'm feeling pretty good about those comments after this PR? Like, I'm going back to those pages and I think my arguments hold up quite a bit better than any of the pushback I got.

 

[Netserk]

Ah I might have mixed up arguing this right after the 2022 Tour and arguing about the relevance of the 2022 stage after the 2023 Ronde. I fear I don't have as much time as you to make sure I didn't write about this in 2022 as well. In any case, you don't think I'm feeling pretty good about those comments after this PR? Like, I'm going back to those pages and I think my arguments hold up quite a bit better than any of the pushback I got.

The pushback from those who agreed that he can win or podium Roubaix back in 2023 before his step-up last year?

Yeah, I think you were much more wrong for stating that one ought to believe in 2023 that Pogi was the best in the world on flat pavé. Or do you think he was better on the flat cobbles yesterday than Van der Poel?

 

[Peyroteo94]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1911656940351914246

View: https://x.com/Miroir2Cyclisme/status/1911656940351914246?t=WJH5JRZv5BiDcPvjr8CDKQ&s=19


Anybody saying vdp was stronger yesterday has to see this clip. On the crash pog stopped for 28 secs and still managed to get the gap to 12 secs but once they got to the technical parts of the cobbles vdp took 1 or 2 secs per corner and after his 2nd bike change the adrenaline went out of the chase. I would say strength wise both were on the same level and would have come to the velodrome together and u never know what could happen in the sprint after 260 kms of relentless racing

MVP also said without that crash, they would be together in the velodrome.
However, Pogacar never took the gap under 15 seconds (and not 12). Other thing important to say is the fact he raced without powermeter for the last 38 km.

 

[jono]

The brakes were rubbing immediately on that bike he switched to.

That’s the race tho. P-R is a luck merchant affair. You can control the little things that make a difference as Alpecin has mastered.

A "luck merchant" affair, and yet one of the big favorites has won at least 11 out of the last 20 editions (Boonen x4, Cancellara x3, Sagan, MVDP x3).

 

[Gigs_98]

Because nothing's changed in cycling since July 2022?

Yeah Rick, if someone predicts something a few years in advance and you did not, the reason must be that you were right at the time and everything has changed since then. I cannot think of another explanation, can you?

 

[jono]

MVP also said without that crash, they would be together in the velodrome.
However, Pogacar never took the gap under 15 seconds (and not 12). Other thing important to say is the fact he raced without powermeter for the last 38 km.

Both riders were without power for the finale. Van der Poel said his stopped working on one of the cobbled sectors well before his bike change.

Might make for better racing, honestly, if this sort of thing happens more often.

 

[Salvarani]

MVP also said without that crash, they would be together in the velodrome.
However, Pogacar never took the gap under 15 seconds (and not 12). Other thing important to say is the fact he raced without powermeter for the last 38 km.

Yup, riding without the powermeter trying to chase is something that hasnt been spoken about enough. That was a huge disadvantage.

He was really unfortunate and unlucky, but still fought like a lion. Proud of the GOAT in his first participation here.

 

[Red Rick]

People daring to use the term 'luck merchant' my permission will be hearing from my lawyer soon.

 

[Netserk]

Yeah Rick, if someone predicts something a few years in advance and you did not, the reason must be that you were right at the time and everything has changed since then. I cannot think of another explanation, can you?

Predict?

"he is currently the best rider in the world on flat cobbles"

 

[Salvarani]

The brakes were rubbing immediately on that bike he switched to.

That’s the race tho. P-R is a luck merchant affair. You can control the little things that make a difference as Alpecin has mastered.

Man, you are so right. Luck is still a big part of it in this race and MVDP/Alpecin have truly mastered it. Everything went their way yesterday.

 

[scribers]

A "luck merchant" affair, and yet one of the big favorites has won at least 11 out of the last 20 editions (Boonen x4, Cancellara x3, Sagan, MVDP x3).

Devil is in the details when all other things are equal.

All your data suggests is that dominance was never not a thing.

 

[scribers]

People daring to use the term 'luck merchant' my permission will be hearing from my lawyer soon.

He who cannot be named was the first

 

[yaf2]

The brakes were rubbing immediately on that bike he switched to.

That’s the race tho. P-R is a luck merchant affair. You can control the little things that make a difference as Alpecin has mastered.

U missed the point. I know PR is in the end for the lucky and skillful one but i heard some say vdp was stronger yesterday and that wasn't the case. Pog at 65 kg being equal strong with 75 kg vdp on the flat cobbles is quite insane. Imagine if pog gets muscle mass and has 72 kgs. I would say he would treat vdp as a kid every PR edition

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah Rick, if someone predicts something a few years in advance and you did not, the reason must be that you were right at the time and everything has changed since then. I cannot think of another explanation, can you?

You just made an assertion based on scant evidence, got proven wrong 2 years later, and I'm the one coping.

If we're gonna be condescending, you may wanna make sure you're actually right before that.

 

[yaf2]

MVP also said without that crash, they would be together in the velodrome.
However, Pogacar never took the gap under 15 seconds (and not 12). Other thing important to say is the fact he raced without powermeter for the last 38 km.

Maybe u were on the tv and u missed it due to the ads but it actually came down to 12 secs

 

[Gigs_98]

The pushback from those who agreed that he can win or podium Roubaix back in 2023 before his step-up last year?

Yeah, I think you were much more wrong for stating that one ought to believe in 2023 that Pogi was the best in the world on flat pavé. Or do you think he was better on the flat cobbles yesterday than Van der Poel?

I think him and MvdP were at the same level on the cobbles yesterday. Also, do you think his classics shape in 2023 was all that different from this year and similarly, do you think 2023 MvdP was as good in Roubaix as this year?

Like seriously, I write he would be a top favorite in Roubaix as soon as he enters it, he does enter it, turns out to be one of the two strongest riders, and some people react by saying "broooooo you thought he could do that 2 years ago, how ridiculous". How do you watch that race yesterday and think it's time to dunk on me for those comments lmao.

 

[scribers]

U missed the point. I know PR is in the end for the lucky and skillful one but i heard some say vdp was stronger yesterday and that wasn't the case. Pog at 65 kg being equal strong with 75 kg vdp on the flat cobbles is quite insane. Imagine if pog gets muscle mass and has 72 kgs. I would say he would treat vdp as a kid every PR edition

I buttressed your point without diminishing the undeniable strength of pogi's opponent.

 

[Netserk]

I think him and MvdP were at the same level on the cobbles yesterday. Also, do you think his classics shape in 2023 was all that different from this year and similarly, do you think 2023 MvdP was as good in Roubaix as this year?

Like seriously, I write he would be a top favorite in Roubaix as soon as he enters it, he does enter it, turns out to be one of the two strongest riders, and some people react by saying "broooooo you thought he could do that 2 years ago, how ridiculous". How do you watch that race yesterday and think it's time to dunk on me for those comments lmao.

You were the one to bring up your old posting (and brag about it). It was not a prediction, it was about who the best on flat cobbles was in 2023.

Not only could you not see any reason back then for not believing so, you now think it's a dunk that anyone back then questioned you.

If you don't like being dunked on, don't start by dunking on others.

EDIT: And note how far more polite my first response to you was than yours to me. I made no personal comments, you did straight away.

 

[Peyroteo94]

A "luck merchant" affair, and yet one of the big favorites has won at least 11 out of the last 20 editions (Boonen x4, Cancellara x3, Sagan, MVDP x3).

And those are not good odds (I would add Degenkolb and you added 21 editions so I will do the same).
If we look to the other cobbled classic (since 2005), one of the big favorites won the race (17 out of 21).
Cancellara 3x
Boonen 3x
MVP 3x
Pogacar 2x
Devolder (I didn't count the first win)
Sagan
Gilbert
Kristoff (Sagan wasn't good and Kristoff was flying)
Terpstra, Asgreen won E3 and were flying before RVV (they were in the best classics team too).

 

[scribers]

Along the lines of someone who can't wrap their mind around Pogi is Spencer Martin. lol Dude picks everyone to win but pogi. Starts out by saying, "can anyone beat him?' and then goes ahead and guides against odds makers.

 

[Peyroteo94]

U missed the point. I know PR is in the end for the lucky and skillful one but i heard some say vdp was stronger yesterday and that wasn't the case. Pog at 65 kg being equal strong with 75 kg vdp on the flat cobbles is quite insane. Imagine if pog gets muscle mass and has 72 kgs. I would say he would treat vdp as a kid every PR edition

He just needed experience, next year he will comeback stronger.

 

[Cycling111]

And those are not good odds (I would add Degenkolb and you added 21 editions so I will do the same).
If we look to the other cobbled classic (since 2005), one of the big favorites won the race (17 out of 21).
Cancellara 3x
Boonen 3x
MVP 3x
Pogacar 2x
Devolder (I didn't count the first win)
Sagan
Gilbert
Kristoff (Sagan wasn't good and Kristoff was flying)
Terpstra, Asgreen won E3 and were flying before RVV (they were in the best classics team too).

When VDP wins his fourth Roubaix, it will have been only a decade since Boonen.

7 decades since another rider won 4 Lombardia

It´s curious

 

[Peyroteo94]

When VDP wins his fourth Roubaix, it will have been only a decade since Boonen.

7 decades since another rider won 4 Lombardia

It´s curious

Boonen had the perfect skillset for PR.

 

[jono]

And those are not good odds (I would add Degenkolb and you added 21 editions so I will do the same).
If we look to the other cobbled classic (since 2005), one of the big favorites won the race (17 out of 21).
Cancellara 3x
Boonen 3x
MVP 3x
Pogacar 2x
Devolder (I didn't count the first win)
Sagan
Gilbert
Kristoff (Sagan wasn't good and Kristoff was flying)
Terpstra, Asgreen won E3 and were flying before RVV (they were in the best classics team too).

None of Terpstra, Asgreen, Kristoff or Devolder (both times) would have been considered big favorites the years they won. If you count them you also have to include Gilbert, van Avermaet, Terpstra (second tier teammate of a big favorite, like Devolder at RVV), etc. for Roubaix.

My point is that the random winners like Hayman and van Summeren are notable, but not particularly frequent.

And in the era of monsters like MVDP and Pog, a true outsider is extremely unlikely to win either race, however "lucky" or not the favorites are on the day.