Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Logic-is-your-friend]

You do realize, though, that Evenepoel has never been close to those wattage numbers for short burst, so your logic brist and your projection? Do you think he has a higher short-burst wattage than MvdP, too? Cause I certaintly dont. And were talking pure intervalls here, MSR isnt a 'climb.'

I like Remco as well and think he's the second-best rider in the world overall (without being better than MvdP in classics, etc etc ). But this MSR post didn't make any sense logic wice to me.

Why should his watts need to be the same? First of all, he's shorter and lighter, so his watts will never be the same. Second of all, we are talking about a scenario of Evenepoel instead of Pogacar, not in addition to. Van der Poel could drop Evenepoel for 100m and then get caught again. Van der Poel would not get any recovery at high speed behind Evenepoel because whoever is in his wheel who is not as aero as him, eats wind non-stop.

 

[James M]

Second of all, we are talking about a scenario of Evenepoel instead of Pogacar, not in addition to. Van der Poel could drop Evenepoel for 100m and then get caught again. Van der Poel would not get any recovery at high speed behind Evenepoel because whoever is in his wheel who is not as aero as him, eats wind non-stop.

Ok, then it's different, and I can at least understand your reasoning behind your point. My bad I dropped into the wrong scenario from what you meant.

 

[Peyroteo94]

"Remco is better than vdp" is this the statement circling around this thread? Whats going on🤧 Remco is the most overrated rider i've ever seen. He can't ride the top 10 guys in the world off his wheel on climbs yet he is regarded as equal or better than those immortals vdp & pog. This guys can leave anybody in the dust off their wheels whenever they want whereas remco couldn't even ride away from 2nd tier riders on the climbs of amstel only got away because someone couldn't cooperate & let his wheel go on the flat. His biggest wins/separations i could remember were either on the top of a climb or breakaways on the flat.

I was stunned by that post but I can't accept someone saying he is the most overrated rider in the world (I already thought the same, not now). He still is a superb GT rider (not close to the best two though), the best rider in TTs (every TT above 50 kph) and the second best rider in hilly classics. I think he is overrated because he didn't live to people's early expectations of Remco being the next Merckx. However he is a generational talent and like @Gargamel35 said last year, Roglic had a wonderful career and should not be disappointed by not winning the Tour because he still won a lot. We should be sad about this current generation (Remco's generation: who born between 1994-2002) because they won't win important races many times.

 

[iBanesto]

 

[Medvind]

Remco has lived up to the hype as tt rider and as a rider in hilly one day races. His palmares speaks for itself in those regards.

Question was if he could be a great GT rider. Sure, he won the Vuelta, but was that enough, could he also be competitive in the Giro and the Tour? That was the question many asked.

I myself doubted Remco as great GT rider for long time. But what I saw in the tour last year finally assured me that he is a great GT rider and could become an even better one. In the tour he should the consistency I feared he would lack in the Giro and the Tour. Also think his performance in the tour removed any lingering doubts about his capability as a GT rider, it was a confidence booster.

I'm very curious to see if he can improve further in the tour this year and get closer to Pog and Vinge.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Remco has lived up to the hype as tt rider and as a rider in hilly one day races. His palmares speaks for itself in those regards.

Question was if he could be a great GT rider. Sure, he won the Vuelta, but was that enough, could he also be competitive in the Giro and the Tour? That was the question many asked.

I myself doubted Remco as great GT rider for long time. But what I saw in the tour last year finally assured me that he is a great GT rider and could become an even better one. In the tour he should the consistency I feared he would lack in the Giro and the Tour. Also think his performance in the tour removed any lingering doubts about his capability as a GT rider, it was a confidence booster.

I'm very curious to see if he can improve further in the tour this year and get closer to Pog and Vinge.

I wil be shocked if he loses less than 5 minutes to Vingegaard or Pogacar.

 

[Salvarani]

I was stunned by that post but I can't accept someone saying he is the most overrated rider in the world (I already thought the same, not now). He still is a superb GT rider (not close to the best two though), the best rider in TTs (every TT above 50 kph) and the second best rider in hilly classics. I think he is overrated because he didn't live to people's early expectations of Remco being the next Merckx. However he is a generation talent and like @Gargamel35 said last year, Roglic had a wonderful career and should not be disappointed by not winning the Tour because he still won a lot. We should be sad about this current generation (Remco's generation: who born between 1994-2002) because they won't win important races many times.

Couldnt agree more with this. Spot on.

 

[hayneplane]

Remco has lived up to the hype as tt rider and as a rider in hilly one day races. His palmares speaks for itself in those regards.

Question was if he could be a great GT rider. Sure, he won the Vuelta, but was that enough, could he also be competitive in the Giro and the Tour? That was the question many asked.

I myself doubted Remco as great GT rider for long time. But what I saw in the tour last year finally assured me that he is a great GT rider and could become an even better one. In the tour he should the consistency I feared he would lack in the Giro and the Tour. Also think his performance in the tour removed any lingering doubts about his capability as a GT rider, it was a confidence booster.

I'm very curious to see if he can improve further in the tour this year and get closer to Pog and Vinge.

The biggest surprise is how relatively poor his major 1 week stage race record is although a lot of this can be mitigated by crashes and illness.

 

[Salvarani]

The biggest surprise is how relatively poor his major 1 week stage race record is although a lot of this can be mitigated by crashes and illness.

At this point, he is overrated in them and have underperformed a lot.

 

[hayneplane]

At this point, he is overrated in them and have underperformed a lot.

If he doesn’t win Romandie with 2 ITTs and only Almeida as any kind of decent competition that would be a bad defeat.

 

[Peyroteo94]

At this point, he is overrated in them and have underperformed a lot.

He isn't a natural climber, this is why he will never be at the same level as Vingegaard and Pogacar. With his ability in hilly stages and TTs, he should rack a lot of one week stage races. However, he doesn't win them.

 

[Shortcut]

Remco probably suffered with rainy weather. Of course he would not beat Pogacar but I expect him to be better on Sunday

Why should his watts need to be the same? First of all, he's shorter and lighter, so his watts will never be the same. Second of all, we are talking about a scenario of Evenepoel instead of Pogacar, not in addition to. Van der Poel could drop Evenepoel for 100m and then get caught again. Van der Poel would not get any recovery at high speed behind Evenepoel because whoever is in his wheel who is not as aero as him, eats wind non-stop.

That idea of Remco instead of Pogačar is hilarious. Like, if it ever came down to a one-on-one Remco vs. MvDP — first of all, that’s not even happening, because MvDP would drop him every time on the Poggio (or do you seriously think Remco could drop MvDP on a climb like the Cipressa or Poggio?). And even more so on the downhill after. The only way Remco would even have a shot is on the flat at the end (which is what you’re arguing), but come on — first, it’s way too short, and second, MvDP is a beast in a TT when he needs to be, especially after brutal races (look at Paris-Roubaix 2024, Worlds 2023, MSR 2023). And in a sprint? MvDP absolutely destroys him 100 times out of 100. Remco winning Worlds 2022 and the Olympics 2024 would never happen if they were racing in team kits. There’s just no world where he beats MvDP one-on-one in races like MSR, RVV, GW, E3, or Paris-Roubaix — like, “instead” of Pogačar, who’s literally the only guy who even makes it to a one-on-one with MvDP.

 

[Cycling111]

The biggest surprise is how relatively poor his major 1 week stage race record is although a lot of this can be mitigated by crashes and illness.

The other day I read a message saying he was a dominator in everything except the TDF, and that's not the case. A dominator can only lose to another dominator at most.

Remco has lost in one-week races against Skjelmose or Jorgenson.


A dominator is someone who almost always wins, and when thye lose, they've been beaten by another dominator.
To consider Remco a dominator in stage races, he'd have to win every one that didn't feature Pogacar, Roglic, or Vingegaard. That's the minimum. But he's been in a Vuelta that Kuss won, and in one-week races that riders like Jorgenson and Skjelmose have won.

He should definitely win in Romandie.

 

[MerkantilMerch]

Why should his watts need to be the same? First of all, he's shorter and lighter, so his watts will never be the same. Second of all, we are talking about a scenario of Evenepoel instead of Pogacar, not in addition to. Van der Poel could drop Evenepoel for 100m and then get caught again. Van der Poel would not get any recovery at high speed behind Evenepoel because whoever is in his wheel who is not as aero as him, eats wind non-stop.

TT skills dont always translate well after 250km of racing.

Pogi is a 10x better TT rider than MVDP and yet he couldnt close an 18sec gap at the end of PR.

 

[Salvarani]

The other day I read a message saying he was a dominator in everything except the TDF, and that's not the case. A dominator can only lose to another dominator at most.

Remco has lost in one-week races against Skjelmose or Jorgenson.

And Vlasov!

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

TT skills dont always translate well after 250km of racing.

Pogi is a 10x better TT rider than MVDP and yet he couldnt close an 18sec gap at the end of PR.

There is no rider with a better win percentage in 250km + races than Evenepoel.

 

[MerkantilMerch]

There is no rider with a better win percentage in 250km + races than Evenepoel.

Yea when he is the first to attack with good legs

 

[Salvarani]

Which one?

In Valenciana.

 

[Cycling111]

There is no rider with a better win percentage in 250km + races than Evenepoel.

If Pogacar only rides Liège and Lombardy, his effectiveness would be almost 100%.
MSR reduces his percentage by more than 30%.

You have to look beyond the statistics.

We can't consider Remco the best in +250km races when he only rides the two monuments in which Pogacar has a better percentage than him.

If Remco were to do MSR every year, his effectiveness would plummet. That statistic is highly misleading.
If Pogacar only did Liège and Lombardy, he'd have a better winning percentage than Remco taking into account that in Lombardy Pogacar has 100% vs Remco 0%

By the way, in Lombardy Pogacar gained a minute on the climb, but more than two on the flatter section.

 

[Peyroteo94]

There is no rider with a better win percentage in 250km + races than Evenepoel.

Of course, he doesn't race all monuments like Pogacar. Let him do a full monument season and he will probably decrease his win percentage.

 

[Peyroteo94]

If Pogacar only rides Liège and Lombardy, his effectiveness would be almost 100%.
MSR reduces his percentage by more than 30%.

You have to look beyond the statistics.

We can't consider Remco the best in +250km races when he only rides the two monuments in which Pogacar has a better percentage than him.

If Remco were to do MSR every year, his effectiveness would plummet. That statistic is highly misleading.
If Pogacar only did Liège and Lombardy, he'd have a better winning percentage than Remco taking into account that in Lombardy Pogacar has 100% vs Remco 0%

By the way, in Lombardy Pogacar gained a minute on the climb, but more than two on the flatter section.

Thanks mate. Someone needs to stop this.

 

[Cycling111]

Of course, he doesn't race all monuments like Pogacar. Let him do a full monument season and he will probably decrease his win percentage.

And taking the two Monuments that Remco makes, Pogacar already has a better percentage.
Only Lombardy it´s 100 vs 0.

Pogacar has been penalized by MSR, a race where he's losing in the sprint against riders like VDP and Philipsen. What would Remco's sprint percentage vs those riders? Probably another 0%.

I remember when it was said that Remco only had one less GT than Pogacar and that's why he was almost at the same level.

Man, if you don't consider that Pogacar has always been on the GT podium, Remco not, they only counted the finished GTs, no Remco´s first Giro... Pogacar only had one more GT, but that extra GT was having two Tours versus one Vuelta... It's like saying Roberto Heras has the same number of GTs as Pogacar. Statistically, that's true, but one has three TDFs. You have to look at more than a statistic.

 

[2WpK]

Pog's fitness is going to be better tomorrow than it was at FW. His decline at Amstel was residual from PR (I believe he underestimated how tiring it was since he had never done it before). Now that he has recovered from PR, I think he is only getting better. Also, FW took less out of him than his opponents.

 

[hayneplane]

There is no rider with a better win percentage in 250km + races than Evenepoel.

A stat that is helped by the fact he has only ever ridden the two monuments best suited to him unlike Pogacar and MVDP who have both done all 5 at least once in their career.

 

[Red Rick]

A stat that is helped by the fact he has only ever ridden the two monuments best suited to him unlike Pogacar and MVDP who have both done all 5 at least once in their career.

Lombardia has been under 250 km 3/4 times Evenepoel entered it, swaying the statistics. Evenepoels monument entries over 250km is literally only 3 races.