Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[AlpRaid]

Even Merckx didnt have such dedicated haters. The true sign of greatness

lol. Merckx had so many dedicated haters he got punched while riding up the Puy de Dome.

The French HATED him until he lost.

And the theory had it that Merckx was convinced not to start the 1973 TDF because the public had had enough.

And there is a YouTube video somewhere at the start of the 1975 TDF where every member of the public responds to the reporter’s question saying they are so tired of Merckx “ras le bol de Merckx”.

Again this thread is being peppered by posters who know almost nothing about the era. I lived it. In Europe. Stop mouthing off on stuff you don’t know anything about.

 

[Oldman]

lol. Merckx had so many dedicated haters he got punched while riding up the Puy de Dome.

The French HATED him until he lost.

And the theory had it that Merckx was convinced not to start the 1973 TDF because the public had had enough.

And there is a YouTube video somewhere at the start of the 1975 TDF where every member of the public responds to the reporter’s question saying they are so tired of Merckx “ras le bol de Merckx”.

Again this thread is being peppered by posters who know almost nothing about the era. I lived it. In Europe. Stop mouthing off on stuff you don’t know anything about.

The Spaniards were willing to beat him up. The French seethed....how dare that Belgian dominate our precious Grand Boucle'. You could sense that when Lemond beat up on Hinault except he had so little team support they had sympathy. Didn't every major rider get a fan-sponsored bath of mystery liquid at some point? Euro team riders didn't treat newcomers any better, either.
Opinions are so much more condensed by group echoplexes that it gets absurd.

 

[MariaB]

I like Pogacar
But it seems only in cycling that there’s such recency bias and current rider worship from fans.

No one really puts down pele or Maradona in favour of Messi or Ronaldo in football, the debate tends to be more balanced.
Pele never even played outside of the Americas in his entire club career , but no one says he played in a farmers league.
Merckx dominated gts and monuments against great competition in both but he ‘competed against farmers’

It just annoys me as a fan of sport and of cycling.

Annoys you? Do we look like we care?

Merckx would be a meh rider nowadays.
Not great to beat MDVP, not great to beat Tadej or Jonas.

A glorified WVA.
Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Extinction]

Annoys you? Do we look like we care?

Merckx would be a meh rider nowadays.
Not great to beat MDVP, not great to beat Tadej or Jonas.

A glorified WVA.
Nothing more, nothing less.

That entirely depends on how if Merckx were riding today he would be on a modern bike, with modern performance science, nutrition, strategic planning, etc. If his numbers would be superior, his will to win the same, then perhaps he could beat the best today. Conversely, how would Tadej or Jonas be in the conditions of the late 60s-early-70s, racing on steel frames, 170 days a year, on poor nutrition, etc? Would they beat Merckx or De Vlaeminck? This is why any real comparison between eras is impossible. It's like the Messi-Pele/Maradona debate. The game of football was played so differently between their eras and it's the same in cycling. As for the competition., Merckx faced the best cyclists in the sport at the time, during an age when riding a bike to get around was commonplace, much more than today, in continental Europe. In Italy there was even a game of plastic balls with cyclists pictures on them, which could be traded much lake baseball cards at the time in the US. That sort of thing doesn't exist anymore, while fewer ride bikes to get around and so the popular level of the sport has diminished and with it the viable number of talented riders to fill the pro ranks. Today that is made up for by the more global arena from which the pro ranks fill their teams. But to say Merckx only competed against cyclists from three other nations is misleading. All we can say is that Pogacar races in conditions that maximize his sensational physiological parameters, allowing him to reach performance levels that rival any of those in the past, for which some consider him the goat. The incredible thing about Merckx, however, was that, despite sub-optimal scientific preparation and racing so much year in and year out during his career, he still managed to win just about all the major classics and GTs multiple times. Impressive.

 

[Fos]

That entirely depends on how if Merckx were riding today he would be on a modern bike, with modern performance science, nutrition, strategic planning, etc. If his numbers would be superior, his will to win the same, then perhaps he could beat the best today. Conversely, how would Tadej or Jonas be in the conditions of the late 60s-early-70s, racing on steel frames, 170 days a year, on poor nutrition, etc? Would they beat Merckx or De Vlaeminck? This is why any real comparison between eras is impossible. It's like the Messi-Pele/Maradona debate. The game of football was played so differently between their eras and it's the same in cycling. As for the competition., Merckx faced the best cyclists in the sport at the time, during an age when riding a bike to get around was comonplace, much more than today, in continental Europe. In Italy there was even a game of plastic balls with cyclists pictures on them, which could be traded much lake baseball cards at the time in the US. That sort of thing doesn't exist anymore, while fewer ride bikes to get around and so the popular level of the sport has diminished and with it the viable number of talented riders to fill the pro ranks. Today that is made up for by the more global arena from which the pro ranks fill their teams. But to say Merckx only competed against cyclists from three other nations is misleading. All we can say is that Pogacar races in conditions that maximize his sensational physiological parameters, allowing him to reach performance levels that rival any of those of the past, for which some consider him the goat. The incredible thing about Merckx, however, was that, despite sub-optimal scientific preparation and racing so much year in and year out during his career, he still managed to win just about all the major classics and GTs multiple times. Impressive.It is simple

It is simple. Back in those days there was a way bigger bunch of potential winners that they never were discovered.

 

[Peter von]

No one really puts down pele or Maradona in favour of Messi or Ronaldo in football, the debate tends to be more balanced.

idk if it's comparable. You only have one Pogi, Messi and Ronaldo were two going toe-to-toe for years and years, so more difficult to argue one was dominant on the level of Pogi.

And in my experience football fans can have plenty recency bias and favorite league bias and all the other biasses, it's called being human.

 

[Extinction]

It is simple. Back in those days there was a way bigger bunch of potential winners that they never were discovered.

I would imagine, though, that's also relative to population growth, while the majority of cyclists still come from basically the same national-geographic areas give or take some. Think of the US alone today, with a massive population, and yet cycling is a niche sport at best. How many genetic beasts are out there who will never watch a bike race on TV, let alone give racing a go? True, today anybody who gets on a stationary bike can produce data that potentially someone will take an interest in, who thus can be "identified" like never before. Still, this is greatly marginal to finding talents from those who take up cycling as juniors. In Merckx's day I'll bet, relative to population size, far more kids in Europe tried competitive cycling than today. With a different culture of safety and youth concerns, intensive urbanization, riding on more trafficked roads and the inherent risk of high speed crashing, cycling is considerably less appealing to parents for their kids now. Plus sports like football and formula 1 are generally more popular and "glamourous" than the masochistic and less lucrative sport of cycling. Whereas Anquetil, even Hinault, were veritable sex symbols in their days.

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

There will be always people like you, who will find some argument even for most obvious things. Messi was the GOAT even before he won WC with Argentina. I don't like Messi and i will always be Cristiano fan, but he was so much better than everybody else and everybody could see it. He won that WC with a great amount of luck (3 penalty series) so if one of his teammates would not score goal from penalty... he would not be the Goat? Soccer is so much more difficult right now since and doing this now (as Messi did) is just something else). The same goes for Pogacar, people saying if he doesn't win P-R he is not the GOAT, those people (like you) just don't want to see obvious things. So if Wout had mechanical on last cobble sector Pogacar would somehow be much better rider as he is now? He is riding P-R with 66kg, it is literally 8-14kg difference from other TOP 10 riders. That would be whole 2 categories in boxing right now. It is the most amazing person we have ever seen in cycling.

Football is so much more difficult now?
In some ways yes, but it vastly favours the attackers more than it ever did.
Maradona got lumps booted out of him every game. Football fans see the for and against arguments for both.

Cycling fans can’t
They just say ‘they’re so much faster now, they’re all professional’
Of course the international success makes a difference, if Messi hadn’t won the Copa at least, which he was given plenty opportunity to do with the centenary tournament, that would have been a failure. He kept losing to Chile and managed to squeak it in the end.

Pogacar is probably the best rider since Merckx but he only has 5 grand tours, he has a lot to do

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

I would imagine, though, that's also relative to population growth, while the majority of cyclists still come from basically the same national-geographic areas give or take some. Think of the US alone today, with a massive population, and yet cycling is a niche sport at best. How many genetic beasts are out there who will never watch a bike race on TV, let alone give racing a go? True, today anybody who gets on a stationary bike can produce data that potentially someone will take an interest in, who thus can be "identified" like never before. Still, this is still greatly marginal to finding talents from those who take up cycling as juniors. In Merckx's day I'll bet, relative to population size, far more kids in Europe tried competitive cycling than today. With a different culture of safety and youth concerns, intensive urbanization and riding on more trafficked roads, the inherent risk of high speed crashing, cycling is considerably less appealing to parents for their kids now. Plus sports like football and formula 1 are generally more popular and "glamourous" than the masochistic and less lucrative sport of cycling. Whereas Anquetil, even Hinault, were veritable sex symbols in their days.

Yes , articulated better than I could.
Today, youngsters can’t afford the bikes either, it’s an upper middle class sport mainly .

 

[Bombarolo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2044039613031833828

View: https://x.com/ammattipyoraily/status/2044039613031833828?s=46


As expected Wva level was in another league compared to last year.

 

[BubbaChuck]

What is ''curse of Ocana.''

 

[Coppi-Bartali]

idk if it's comparable. You only have one Pogi, Messi and Ronaldo were two going toe-to-toe for years and years, so more difficult to argue one was dominant on the level of Pogi.

And in my experience football fans can have plenty recency bias and favorite league bias and all the other biasses, it's called being human.

Messi has been an infinitely better footballer than Cristiano Ronaldo. The thing is, football is such a team sport that you're mixing up collective achievements for certain narratives, but as individual players, there's no comparison. (some fans' narratives, the footballers are clear on this, Messi´s prime was out of this planet)
Gerd Muller won more titles than Maradona, there is a bigger difference in goals (Maradona and Messi aren´t forwards) and in titles between Muller and Maradona (in favor of Muller), and nobody doubts that Maradona was better.
90% of footballers say Messi was better than Cristiano Ronaldo.

 

[Extinction]

Football is so much more difficult now?
In some ways yes, but it vastly favours the attackers more than it ever did.
Maradona got lumps booted out of him every game. Football fans see the for and against arguments for both.

Cycling fans can’t
They just say ‘they’re so much faster now, they’re all professional’
Of course the international success makes a difference, if Messi hadn’t won the Copa at least, which he was given plenty opportunity to do with the centenary tournament, that would have been a failure. He kept losing to Chile and managed to squeak it in the end.

Pogacar is probably the best rider since Merckx but he only has 5 grand tours, he has a lot to do

I'd say if Pog wins Roubaix, another Giro-Tour double, a Vuelta and keeps pilling on the wins in monuments and stage races he reaches Merckx. Nobody can win as much as Eddy, while you can't compare athletic levels really, because modern equipment and performance science gives Pogacar too much of an advantage. Although Merckx himself said Pogacar has obviously surpassed his level, but again modern cycling is too advanced for direct and fair comparison with his age.

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

I'd say if Pog wins Roubaix, another Giro-Tour double, a Vuelta and keeps pilling on the wins in monuments and stage races he reaches Merckx. Nobody can win as much as Eddy, while you can't compare athletic levels really, because modern equipment and performance science gives Pogacar too much of an advantage. Although Merckx himself said Pogacar has obviously surpassed his level, but again modern cycling is too advanced for direct and fair comparison with his age.

That’s about what I think Pog needs to do as well.
Merckx might just be being a gentlemen but who knows.

 

[BubbaChuck]

If we look at seixas,same height as eddie and 15 kilos less,its hard to argue for cannibal.

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

If we look at seixas,same height as eddie and 15 kilos less,it’s hard to argue for cannibal.

What does sexy ass have to do with Eddy or Teddy?

 

[BubbaChuck]

Youll see.

 

[Extinction]

What does sexy ass have to do with Eddy or Teddy?

Sexy ass 🤣

 

[Extinction]

That’s about what I think Pog needs to do as well.
Merckx might just be being a gentlemen but who knows.

No, I don't think it was gentlemanly, but acknowledgment of the pure power and resistance at work in Tadej, obviously the result of incredible genetics accompanied by what modern cycling can get out of a rider performance wise. I think, however, Merckx would put an asterisk on his statement: as in what level would he have obtained were he racing with all the benefits and advantages of today? An unanswerable conundrum.

 

[Peter von]

90% of footballers say Messi was better than Cristiano Ronaldo.

I do too, but feel like you might need to redo that poll because i think there was a problem with your sample population. Either way the debate is still more open than Pogi vs. any contemporary to the point I am not even sure if it would be MVP or Vingo.