Tadej Pogačar Giro 2024 performance compared to the next WADA clean cyclist? Asking for a friend

[zlev11]

That timespan covers 1990 - LeMond was clean, no? Probably a contentious assumption around here...

I guess it would help to define doping as chemical and or motor-assisted performance against the stated rules. I think more narrowly doping would not include Gruber assist.

if i had to bet on it i'd say Lemond was probably taking something but yeah maybe it's 33 years then

 

[Cookster15]

if i had to bet on it i'd say Lemond was probably taking something but yeah maybe it's 33 years then

The evidence I've seen suggests whatever Lemond could have taken (if anything) was nothing compared to oxygen vector techniques. Again, I will use well documented AdH climbing times:

Alpe d'Huez - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

................. Greg LeMond and Bernard Hinault have been reported as having the times of 48m 0s in 1986

 

[kingjr]

The evidence I've seen suggests whatever Lemond could have taken (if anything) was nothing compared to oxygen vector techniques. Again, I will use well documented AdH climbing times:

Alpe d'Huez - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That time doesn't mean much, LeMond himself said he had never gone up AdH so easily and it was more like a training ride.

 

[Nomad]

Wonder how he avoided testing positive when everyone else did

Or not get burned off by another rider. Recall in Rasmussen's autobiography he mentions that he taught Ryder Hesjedal, the 2012 winner, how to properly take "EPO." Lol. Though he never tested positive, Hesjedal didn't deny the claim admitting to have used EPO in his career:

Hesjedal admits to doping: 'I chose the wrong path'

2012 Giro d'Italia champion Ryder Hesjedal admits to taking banned substances in the early part of his career

velo.outsideonline.com

 

[Nomad]

if i had to bet on it i'd say Lemond was probably taking something but yeah maybe it's 33 years then

It definitely wasn't rocket fuel. LeMond has said in 1994 when he was with Z - Tamasso, the speed of the peleton exploded & he was getting dropped by riders that he had easily outperformed. Unable to keep up, he retired that year.

Also, the late Laurent Fignon noted major changes had occurred in the early 90s with the onset of EPO & HGH. Fignon, who used amphetamines in his career, said things had gotten so out of hand in the 90s that he wanted no part of it.

 

[Red Rick]

Guys. I know I complain a lot. About routes. About Pogacar. About people enjoying races. But have I ever told you I am a Nigerian prince?

 

[Netserk]

We have no way of knowing whether Pogacar, Vingegaard, Evans etc are doping or not.

By that standard, for how long did we have no way of knowing whether Armstrong doped or not?

Do we today have no way of knowing whether Indurain doped or not?

 

[Sciatic]

By that standard, for how long did we have no way of knowing whether Armstrong doped or not?

Do we today have no way of knowing whether Indurain doped or not?

Exactly —that’s why the premise of the question is false—until someone is tested positive, busted with other evidence, or their blood bags found in a storage cooler, we don’t know for sure who of the other riders are doping and by how much.

 

[zlev11]

It definitely wasn't rocket fuel. LeMond has said in 1994 when he was with Z - Tamasso, the speed of the peleton exploded & he was getting dropped by riders that he had easily outperformed. Unable to keep up, he retired that year.

Also, the late Laurent Fignon noted major changes had occurred in the early 90s with the onset of EPO & HGH. Fignon, who used amphetamines in his career, said things had gotten so out of hand in the 90s that he wanted no part of it.

ok, but the question wasn't "did Lemond do EPO?" (debatable IMO) the question was just about doping. I find it hard to believe Lemond could win even in the late 80's without any doping at all.

 

[Netserk]

Exactly —that’s why the premise of the question is false—until someone is tested positive, busted with other evidence, or their blood bags found in a storage cooler, we don’t know for sure who of the other riders are doping and by how much.

So your answer to the two question would be: "until 2012" and "yes (affirmation, we have no way of knowing)"?

 

[Red Rick]

Exactly —that’s why the premise of the question is false—until someone is tested positive, busted with other evidence, or their blood bags found in a storage cooler, we don’t know for sure who of the other riders are doping and by how much.

Not even by how much.

 

[Cookster15]

We have no way of knowing whether Pogacar, Vingegaard, Evans etc are doping or not. One could intimate well Pogacar’s performance shows he’s doping. But we don’t know that any more than we know if Evan’s was doping. So the question is built on a false premise and false comparison. For instance, let’s say Pogacar, Vingegaard, Froome, Evan’s, etc all doped. In that scenario perhaps Pogacar’s performance stands out simply because he’s a better responder than the others. Or his docs have learned how to titrate dosing in a more sophisticated manner and that explains why he appears to be in another league. That would not mean he’s a “doper” and the other elite guys are not.

Evans (or the Schlecks or even Contador) weren’t on the same postcode as the climbing times being set by Pogacar and Vingegaard today. Plus those two are doing what I thought impossible for sub 65kg lightweights in flatish TTs.

Seems clear to me we have an arms race which was triggered by Pog taking the 2020 TdF title right out of JV’s best laid plans. That stunned look on the face of Tom Dumoulin said it all.

Now we are in the latest instalment of the arms race with UAE upping the ante. Poor Ineos have been left choking on the dust 😉

 

[Cookster15]

ok, but the question wasn't "did Lemond do EPO?" (debatable IMO) the question was just about doping. I find it hard to believe Lemond could win even in the late 80's without any doping at all.

The history of EPO and what happened to Lemond after 1990 says no.

 

[zlev11]

The history of EPO and what happened to Lemond after 1990 says no.

EPO was in the peloton in 1988

 

[Sciatic]

So your answer to the two question would be: "until 2012" and "yes (affirmation, we have no way of knowing)"?

I would not answer a question built on a faulty premise. Fine if other folks want to answer for their own interests that’s fine

 

[Sciatic]

Evans (or the Schlecks or even Contador) weren’t on the same postcode as the climbing times being set by Pogacar and Vingegaard today. Plus those two are doing what I thought impossible for sub 65kg lightweights in flatish TTs.

Seems clear to me we have an arms race which was triggered by Pog taking the 2020 TdF title right out of JV’s best laid plans. That stunned look on the face of Tom Dumoulin said it all.

Now we are in the latest instalment of the arms race with UAE upping the ante. Poor Ineos have been left choking on the dust 😉

I would agree, but that’s not what the question asked—it assumes that we know which riders were not doping. Performance doesn’t tell us that: poor performances could be due to riders being poor responders, to being on faulty programs, or not training to the capacity PEDs provided (I.e. slackers).
My objection is to a baited (or ill-thought) question is asked.

Note that in a follow-up post Mr.msyto continues the misdirection by mentioning Evan’s and “the other clean Giro greats.” Maybe he’s just an idolizing little boy and really believes that, or he or she are sitting enjoying the ruckus. For that reason I will bow out here as well.

 

[Nomad]

ok, but the question wasn't "did Lemond do EPO?" (debatable IMO) the question was just about doping. I find it hard to believe Lemond could win even in the late 80's without any doping at all.

Yes, I understand your question. IMO, I don't know. LeMond said he was clean & never used PEDs in his career (?). One of his main rivals, Fignon, said he used amphetamines throughout his career - and actually tested positive for such.

The PEDs of choice in the 80s were primarily amphetamines, anabolic steroids, testosterone & corticosteroids. But these were minuscule compared to the 02-vector power of EPO, especially with high-responders.

Furthermore, I don't think it's possible that LeMond ever used EPO. The way he & Fignon got dropped in the Peleton like they were amateurs. Lol. And look at the rocket fuel performances of the 90s with the dramatic increases in climbing speeds - it was absolutely crazy! (check out the top-10 times up Alpe d'Huez). Big Mig, Pantani, Riis, Ullrich, Rominger, etc. It got so bad that Riis said using EPO wasn't considered cheating, as it was "the normal preparation of a professional cyclist." Lol!

 

[zlev11]

The PEDs of choice in the 80s were primarily amphetamines, anabolic steroids, testosterone & corticosteroids. But these were minuscule compared to the 02-vector power of EPO, especially with high-responders.

yeah no argument from me there, but the drugs from the '80's are still PED's and they do still increase performance. testosterone is huge for recovery and corticos can help you drop weight super easy without losing muscle. that's why i doubt Lemond was as squeaky clean as it's assumed that he was.

 

[Nomad]

You have a valid point. I just realized Stephen Roche accomplished the Giro-Tour double in 1987. Interestingly, that version of the Giro didn't start until May 21 ending on June 13 - less than 3 weeks before the start of the 87 Tour.

 

[Scarponi]

the same way everyone else who didn't go +ve in an era where most doped

That 2004-2008 era though everyone who won went down except him.

 

[Cookster15]

EPO was in the peloton in 1988

Even if that is right it took a few years to figure it out. For example there were still some wild results in the 1993 TdF. The stage I recall was won by Rominger and went over the Galibier finishing at Serre Chevalier. Check the massive time gaps to riders like Chiappucci and Bugno. They were all using EPO but can’t have all had a bad day at the same time? No way was Lemond using EPO when he won. I think EPO contributed to his early retirement.

 

[Sciatic]

Even if that is right it took a few years to figure it out. For example there were still some wild results in the 1993 TdF. The stage I recall was won by Rominger and went over the Galibier finishing at Serre Chevalier. Check the massive time gaps to riders like Chiapppucci and Bugno. They were all using EPO but can’t have all had a bad day at the same time? No way was Lemond using EPO when he won. I think EPO contributed to his early retirement.

That’s a great point about understanding how to make the best use of it. For instance, Did some think it might be like glutico-steroids or anabolics and create a response rapidly after taking it, so would inject it right before races thinking that will benefit? (ePO doesn’t deliver O2 to the bloodstream ( the lugworms will) — it stimulates bone marrow to make more new red blood cells, a process that takes 48-96 hrs)

 

[Ripper]

Is this a piss-take?
Either way, it's funny.

It's hilarious! Either a piss-take or total trolling

 

[Forever The Best]

That 2004-2008 era though everyone who won went down except him.

Sastre did not. Also neither did Cunego. (Of riders who won GTs in that time frame).
Of the podium guys, I think:
- Bruseghin (He was in Mantova investigation, couldn't ride 2011 Giro but got cleared later on and apparently also involved in Sanremo raid in 2001 Giro but he finished the race and did not get a suspension - really impressive teflon resume here)
- A.Schleck (his brother tested positive)
- Klöden (poster boy for teflon riders) got away with it too.
- Honchar had multiple violations but no official suspension. (was removed from 99 Tour de Suisse, got his contract terminated by T-Mobile in 2007).
- Pereiro tested positive for salbutamol (2006 Tour obviously, when he rode that final week like he never did before or after) then got cleared.

Well, technically Heras also got cleared lol.

 

[Mr Mysto]

I would agree, but that’s not what the question asked—it assumes that we know which riders were not doping. Performance doesn’t tell us that: poor performances could be due to riders being poor responders, to being on faulty programs, or not training to the capacity PEDs provided (I.e. slackers).
My objection is to a baited (or ill-thought) question is asked.

Note that in a follow-up post Mr.msyto continues the misdirection by mentioning Evan’s and “the other clean Giro greats.” Maybe he’s just an idolizing little boy and really believes that, or he or she are sitting enjoying the ruckus. For that reason I will bow out here as well.

I appreciate your response and understand your perspective. I’m not a medical expert either, but this seems like the right place to ask about such topics. Yes, I’m aware that you are from Australia, and the article I mentioned is Australian ( ABC News report ). From what I’ve read, Cadel Evans has maintained a clean record, and there’s nothing inherently wrong with believing in that. It’s natural to trust people and hope that both the UCI and the riders honor their responsibilities as role models.

I am not a little boy