Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[fbjim]

Someone coming out of literally nowhere is actually much, much more plausible than Froome going from an outright terrible rider to a Grand Tour winner.

 

[roundabout]

Like when? You mean he didn't win every race, was inconsistent, what? I don't see what he could have done more to be seen as more legitimate or whatever. It was a super promising neopro season, don't see how even the most tough guy poster can disagree.

Like the stage in Pais Vasco before the one you referenced where he lost 20 minutes.

If that was a super promising neopro season, then there are no superlatives to describe Pogacar's 2019.

And speaking a of inconsistency, there seems a bit of pattern for people defending Vingegaard - the stage where Vingegaard finished 9th in Sibiu counts, the one where he finished 25 minutes behind before that does not.

Last stage in Pais Vasco 2019 counts - losing 20 minutes the stage before does not.

Winning a stage in Poland counts - losing 14 minutes next day does not (couldn't sleep, what the *** excuse is that?)

Riding well on the Angliru counts - being dropped before the last climb even started on the stage to Covatilla does not.

Winning on Jebel Jais counts - being nowhere on Jabel Hafeet does not.

It's a big step from being good on individual stages to being a GT team leader, nevermind easily dominating the Tour. Much bigger than you make it out to be.

 

[zlev11]

Winning a stage in Poland counts - losing 14 minutes next day does not (couldn't sleep, what the *** excuse is that?)

are you serious? have you ever dealt with chronic insomnia?

and wow, you were able to point out that a rider in his first couple of WT seasons was inconsistent!!! that's the only time that has ever happened to a young rider before! *** sherlock holmes posts on this forum, thank you.

 

[zlev11]

if we really want to start being f*cking morons then let's go whole hog

CQ Ranking - Tour Down Under, General classification

CQ Ranking is the world's leading cycling ranking and extensive results database. Also known as Cycling Quotient.

cqranking.com

Ryan Gibbons on the same time as Pogacar in the 2019 Tour Down Under. uhm excuse me, why isn't Ryan Gibbons winning grand tours???

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

This escalated past the point of being fun

 

[roundabout]

are you serious? have you ever dealt with chronic insomnia?

and wow, you were able to point out that a rider in his first couple of WT seasons was inconsistent!!! that's the only time that has ever happened to a young talented rider before! *** sherlock holmes posts on this forum, thank you.

is there evidence that chronic insomnia was the issue for Vingegaard? or you are one of those telemedicine people who can make a diagnosis from the comfort of your home?

and inconsistency whether you like it or not was an issue for Vingegaard as much as the defenders would like to either not acknowledge it or blatantly downplay it like you do

 

[ciranda]

So he was inconsistent, so what? It's like can you only consider the worst results? Or even out worst and best? No obviously he does not have the results list of the two guys with the best neopro seasons in the last thirty years or more.

In a piece in l'Equipe, linked below, that I can't read except the first part, his parents say he always used to vomit before races. Same story in his first pro race, the Vuelta a Andalucia, according to what Danny van Poppel said in an article I read a couple of days ago. About Pologne; after winning the stage he was so happy he couldn't fall asleep, at the end slept for four hours, woke up at six in the morning, then got dropped on a small hill on the next stage. These things help explain why the team was careful with him. Apparently he got over the stressing out and worrying and has been pretty consistent for some time now.

Vainqueur du Tour de France, Jonas Vingegaard a su vaincre son stress pour s'imposer

Longtemps paralysé par la pression, le jeune coureur danois, 25 ans, a réussi à enfin croire en lui pour vaincre son stress, avec l'aide de ses entraîneurs et de sa compagne, et remporter son premier Tour de France.

www.lequipe.fr

 

[Riek s]

And here i thought we wanted to go away from looking at Froome...

Froome also got better once they got rid of his parasitic worm disease bilharzia


But like others said, this is going nowhere. If you believe that inconsistency and a single win is proof he is tour material, it's all good. Its fine to agree to disagree .

Maybe we should leave the topic for Pogacar since it seems to be derailed enough by now. I think Pog deserves a clean clinic forum Unfortunatly we won't see him in action in the Vuelta.

 

[SafeBet]

So he was inconsistent, so what? It's like can you only consider the worst results? Or even out worst and best? No obviously he does not have the results list of the two guys with the best neopro seasons in the last thirty years or more.

In a piece in l'Equipe, linked below, that I can't read except the first part, his parents say he always used to vomit before races. Same story in his first pro race, the Vuelta a Andalucia, according to what Danny van Poppel said in an article I read a couple of days ago. About Pologne; after winning the stage he was so happy he couldn't fall asleep, at the end slept for four hours, woke up at six in the morning, then got dropped on a small hill on the next stage. These things help explain why the team went ahead so slowly with him and why he didn't race a lot. Apparently he got over the stressing out and worrying and has been pretty consistent for some time now.

Vainqueur du Tour de France, Jonas Vingegaard a su vaincre son stress pour s'imposer

Longtemps paralysé par la pression, le jeune coureur danois, 25 ans, a réussi à enfin croire en lui pour vaincre son stress, avec l'aide de ses entraîneurs et de sa compagne, et remporter son premier Tour de France.

www.lequipe.fr

I'm in the Vingo showed glimpses of talent from early age camp (which is the reason he got a contract with Jumbo to begin with) but up until Itzulia 2021 he never ever showed the recovery / consistency to contest a GT, let alone completely dominate one.

Is Kron a future Tour winner? Because his neo pro season is way more consistent than Vingo's one but I don't hear people claiming he will win the Tour in a couple of years.

BTW I don't understand why Vingo is being discussed in the Pog's thread.

 

[zlev11]

Froome also got better once they got rid of his parasitic worm disease bilharzia

if you believe the bilharzia scam then i have a bridge to sell you in NYC

 

[PhiLiz]

Less than 2 years ago I hit the 'follow' button on Jonas Vingegaard's Instagram account when he only had a few thousand followers. That was after the Vuelta 2020 in October-November in which he did some decent work for Roglic. Mostly on the flat as well (filtering breakaways was his main job).

I don't believe a single person who now steps forward with tales about how Jonas V always showed talent at a young to the extent winning the Tour de France is plausible (or that he even compared to Pogacar). It's just a fact his 300,000 followers he's amassed since then because he's a winner now will look at his youth results & first years at Jumbo, cherry-pick some results & say "there you go! he had talent!".

The dude was a total nobody. You might as well handpick some random peloton fodder in the 2022 season with one or two half decent results in his career & say he'll win the Tour in 2024. Because that's what happened with Vingegaard, for real.

With Vingo you can at least try to handpick a few decent results. Almost no one is arguing that he has an expected progression. It's just that on the other side you have the Dawg who was a true nobody where you can't even pick a single result to make a weak case.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

With Vingo you can at least try to handpick a few decent results. Almost no one is arguing that he has an expected progression. It's just that on the other side you have the Dawg who was a true nobody where you can't even pick a single result to make a weak case.

Where's Taxus when you need him? Sure you can!

Froome was riding for a C-level team after dropping out of college in South Africa, with no structured European training and development, and still won a stage of the Tour of Japan and got the bronze medal at the All-Africa Games his first pro year (2007) at age 22. He was selected for the Tour in 2008 and was 11th in the young rider classification in his first year on anything resembling a "real" team, then got 36th in 2009 at the Giro the next year at age 24, coming in at 7th in the young rider competition. Look at that progression!

Based on his early potential, he was signed by Team Sky. He had some injury issues but still managed to get 5th in the ITT at the Commonwealth Games, beating Rohan Dennis by 43 seconds. The next year, he showed greater consistency with top 15 results at Vuelta a Castilla y Leon and Tour de Romandie.

The signs were all there, so it was no surprise that he got second (on the road) in the 2011 Vuelta.

 

[Oldermanish]

Totally agree. Once a rider has won the Tour, it makes no sense to give him the white jersey. The title of best "young rider" makes no sense when given to the best rider, as the former kinda connotes that best young rider is a separate category. At that point, why not have best "old rider" for someone 35+?

Mex said "grand stage" . If he meant GT; I'd agree but the rules are still what they are.

 

[Ripper]

Back on topic - Pogo was ridiculous in this Tour. Put something like 5 minutes on a G-Unit that was apparently faster than his previous Tour winning capacities. Out climbed him, out time trialed him, and basically went on a serial rampage of full on attacks (2nd most crazy attacker?). It is true, he was second this year instead of winning, yet his performance was still completely outrageous. Fun reminder - in Flanders he tried to bludgeon van der Poel off of his wheel for quite some distance. Then there was that wee solo escape on SB. When you look at it objectively, it's pretty hilarious stuff.

 

[Extinction]

Disappointing he's not doing the Vuelta.

I think his season has been mismanaged tbh. No one gives a sht about the UAE Tour & it's very early on the calendar. Tirreno? He's won it before. Flèche? Apparently not his favorite type of effort. He pulled out of Liège for family reasons, did the Tour of Slovenia (another race which no one gives a ** about), lost his TdF title & now has a series of not-very-interesting races until the world championships (which is a very unrealistic target). Lombardia? He's won it already.

I'm posting this in the clinic because clinical dark arts is the underlying fuel in a pro cyclist's season & I think Pogacar should absolutely place GT's > everything else, i.e. GT's > one week stage races > monuments. In that order. With his talents & program that's how he'll build a killer cannibal palmarès.

Aim to fuel correctly for the TdF & the Vuelta, with a few one week stage races & the major monuments scattered throughout the season (Liège & Lombardia being the most logical).

Because at this rate it's going to be 11 whole months until we see Pogacar in a GT again. That's boring. Lance was boring. Vingegaard is boring. Don't be like them.

And yet his approach was refreshingly old school. I hope that doesn't change, for when was the last time we saw a Tour winner doing the Ronde? Unfortunately I fear this will now change and we go back to the Lance era once again.

But he may have lost this Tour only for mismanageged efforts and not feeding enough on stage 11 at a critical Moment. Hopefully his coaches realize that and we get to see him in Paris Roubaix next spring and/or the Giro before tackling the Tour. I know it's by now a long gone fantasy, however.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Back on topic - Pogo was ridiculous in this Tour. Put something like 5 minutes on a G-Unit that was apparently faster than his previous Tour winning capacities. Out climbed him, out time trialed him, and basically went on a serial rampage of full on attacks (2nd most crazy attacker?). It is true, he was second this year instead of winning, yet his performance was still completely outrageous. Fun reminder - in Flanders he tried to bludgeon van der Poel off of his wheel for quite some distance. Then there was that wee solo escape on SB. When you look at it objectively, it's pretty hilarious stuff.

Generally Pog was in similar form this year compared to last year with one big exception - first day in the Alps (which proved decisive in both editions). Instead of a superb performance he cracked this time. I will go further and say that bad weather help him tremendously - if Granon stage had been in similar conditions to last year we would have a different TdF winner now.

 

[Ripper]

Generally Pog was in similar form this year compared to last year with one big exception - first day in the Alps (which proved decisive in both editions). Instead of a superb performance he cracked this time. I will go further and say that bad weather help him tremendously - if Granon stage had been in similar conditions to last year we would have a different TdF winner now.

I think you are correct about the weather. However, I think he was actually a touch stronger than last year, but then there were the mismanaged efforts and the mistakes on Granon.

 

[Netserk]

Like the stage in Pais Vasco before the one you referenced where he lost 20 minutes.

If that was a super promising neopro season, then there are no superlatives to describe Pogacar's 2019.

And speaking a of inconsistency, there seems a bit of pattern for people defending Vingegaard - the stage where Vingegaard finished 9th in Sibiu counts, the one where he finished 25 minutes behind before that does not.

Last stage in Pais Vasco 2019 counts - losing 20 minutes the stage before does not.

Winning a stage in Poland counts - losing 14 minutes next day does not (couldn't sleep, what the *** excuse is that?)

Riding well on the Angliru counts - being dropped before the last climb even started on the stage to Covatilla does not.

Winning on Jebel Jais counts - being nowhere on Jabel Hafeet does not.

It's a big step from being good on individual stages to being a GT team leader, nevermind easily dominating the Tour. Much bigger than you make it out to be.

Sure, context matters. His stage in Itzulia would have been more impressive if he actually had to follow the best the day before too. But I think that the upper-bound of performances (in their right context) are more telling of early promise than average performances are. Especially when riding as a helper on one of the strongest stage race teams. He said after Itzulia that he only rode for a result in the last stage after getting the green light from Bennett. He also rode as a helper in Poland in the stage he won (and the fact that he totally flunked the next day doesn't help him the day before). In UAE he missed the echelon split, so he didn't ride for GC and could take it easy on the first MTF (he also rode a fairly good ITT, showing a consistent high level throughout the season in that regard).

These early performances have not mainly been used to justify his current level (which is absurd and on the level with RoboBasso), but to reject the comparison with Froome. The three British Tour winners had totally different trajectories. Vingegaard's early results are more comparable with the early results of Sastre than with them.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Sure, context matters. His stage in Itzulia would have been more impressive if he actually had to follow the best the day before too. But I think that the upper-bound of performances (in their right context) are more telling of early promise than average performances are. Especially when riding as a helper on one of the strongest stage race teams. He said after Itzulia that he only rode for a result in the last stage after getting the green light from Bennett. He also rode as a helper in Poland in the stage he won (and the fact that he totally flunked the next day doesn't help him the day before). In UAE he missed the echelon split, so he didn't ride for GC and could take it easy on the first MTF (he also rode a fairly good ITT, showing a consistent high level throughout the season in that regard).

These early performances have not mainly been used to justify his current level (which is absurd and on the level with RoboBasso), but to reject the comparison with Froome. The three British Tour winners had totally different trajectories. Vingegaard's early results are more comparable with the early results of Sastre than with them.

Similar =/= identical. Vingegaard’s trajectory is similar to Froome’s. I won’t repeat the ways in which it is. It should be obvious. And of course there are real differences.

 

[Aimar16]

Back on topic - Pogo was ridiculous in this Tour. Put something like 5 minutes on a G-Unit

One of the best cyclists in his prime beat the 36-year-old track cyclist by just 5 minutes. I'm not sure which guy's performance was the ridiculous one..

 

[Ripper]

One of the best cyclists in his prime beat the 36-year-old track cyclist by just 5 minutes. I'm not sure which guy's performance was the ridiculous one..

They both were, given G Unit was apparently stronger than when he won and the gap was similar to the winning gap of last year. But this is pogo's thread, so that's why the comment on him. I've commented on the entire top 3 being quite ridiculous.

 

[Cookster15]

Similar =/= identical. Vingegaard’s trajectory is similar to Froome’s. I won’t repeat the ways in which it is. It should be obvious. And of course there are real differences.

I agree with the view that Pogocar was actually stronger this year than when he won the TdF twice - this makes sense knowing his young age, clinic issues aside. But IMO, all references to Froome here or in Vingo's thread are a diversion.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I think you are correct about the weather. However, I think he was actually a touch stronger than last year, but then there were the mismanaged efforts and the mistakes on Granon.

I can't agree with the notion that he was stronger this year because:

1. he cracked too hard on Granon
2. didn't have a thermonuclear performance

Sure, JV made him work hard on Galibier but I think peak Pog should have handled the stage better. Look, last year during Le Grand Bornand stage he climbed at a superb rate of 1750-1800 m/h for almost an hour. On PDBF stage he had like 6.3 w/kg for almost an hour. We are talking about monstrous efforts and he withstood them.

 

[Nick2413]

I can't agree with the notion that he was stronger this year because:

1. he cracked too hard on Granon
2. didn't have a thermonuclear performance

Sure, JV made him work hard on Galibier but I think peak Pog should have handled the stage better. Look, last year during Le Grand Bornand stage he climbed at a superb rate of 1750-1800 m/h for almost an hour. On PDBF stage he had like 6.3 w/kg for almost an hour. We are talking about monstrous efforts and he withstood them.

I think the effect of heat on climbs is easily enough to make .3w/kg of difference. The more telling fact I think is that he never blew up the field by 3 mins like he did in each of the last 2 tours.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I think the effect of heat on climbs is easily enough to make .3w/kg of difference. The more telling fact I think is that he never blew up the field by 3 mins like he did in each of the last 2 tours.

It wasn't that hot on Granon/Galibier due to high elevation and only the start of the heatwave. The cold during Le Grand Bornand stage is probably more detrimental to most cyclists' performance (but not to Pog, he's different).