Question Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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No, the fisherman is even a bigger nobody than Froome was
Objectively untrue. Showed elite performance younger, WT results also much younger and his u23 and junior career, while not brilliant, was far better. Nothing that would show glimpses of this year's nuclear performance, but decent enough.

Dawg was simply pathetic until that infamous Vuelta. I definitely think Vingo is fishy, but the Dawg was on a whole other level.
 
This post seems like a diversion. You admit Pog is a doper and I don't argue. But now it seems you want us to believe that today's impossible to believe TT by Vingo was something to do with Pog's stupidity on stage 11?

The best explanation I have read for what we have seen since the 2021 TdF is Jumbo took revenge for what happened in 2020. A super responder is our Vingo. A very sparse trophy cabinet compared to Pog prior to his Tour debut. At least we all knew Pog before the 2020 TdF. Few knew Vingo before the 2021 TdF.
To the bolded, I honestly think it's because Pog unintelligently in the first week, then out of necessity from Granon forward, burned too many matches during the Tour. Vingegaard was thus simply fresher during the last tt, which is vital for performance in a tt deep into a GT.

As for clinical issues, I'd like to know what new methods (in particular GV) are being used to make this the fastest Tour in history.
 
To the bolded, I honestly think it's because Pog unintelligently in the first week, then out of necessity from Granon forward, burned too many matches during the Tour. Vingegaard was thus simply fresher during the last tt, which is vital for performance in a tt deep into a GT.

As for clinical issues, I'd like to know what new methods (in particular GV) are being used to make this the fastest Tour in history.
I don’t buy that. No doubt this is the line Jumbo are selling. What was Vingo’s TT record prior to last years Tour? On stage 20 at one point he was threatening the rampant WvA. We can’t pin that on Pog burning his matches. And remember every futile Pog attack required a response from Vingo. He hasn’t been soft peddling for three weeks.
 
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Roglic was outdoping the peloton, so Pogocar outdoped him to win the TdF with that ridiculous performance on Planche de Belles Filles. This year, WVA and JV outdoped Pogocar. Plus the UAE team was total crap compared to Jumbo Visma.

On an individual level, I thought it was cheesy for Roglic to bail on the Tour while JV was trying to keep the yellow jersey. Also, I thought it was cheesy of Pogocar to ride to the front two times on the final stage. He played it off as a joke the first time, and he was obviously going nowhere the second time, but it still looked douchey and very "look at me". He lost the Tour already, on the last stage, he should stay in the peloton the entire stage and draw no attention to himself. Makes me believe if JV had crashed on that prior stage, there's no way Pog would have waited for him to recover.

Also, the "best young rider" jersey should be retired after that rider wins a grand stage. Pogocar is going to be winning the white jersey for the next 5 years at this rate.

And King of the Mountains points should never be awarded on the finish line, otherwise, the GC winner will almost always win the KotM, so there's no point to it.
 
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I don’t buy that. No doubt this is the line Jumbo are selling. What was Vingo’s TT record prior to last years Tour? On stage 20 at one point he was threatening the rampant WvA. We can’t pin that on Pog burning his matches. And remember every futile Pog attack required a response from Vingo. He hasn’t been soft peddling for three weeks.
Well, for some strange law of physics or whatever, the guy who attacks always expends more energy then the guy chasing him down (especially when the chaser has the legs to respond). That's why it's called burning your matches.

I don't doubt Vingegaard and Jumbo are doping, idem for Pogacar. But all else being equal in that regard, it's naive to think Pogacar didn't feel the effects of accumulated fatigue, because of how he raced, more than Vingegaard, because of how he raced. But they were both charged to the gills. Vingegaard just had a better team AND Pogacar raced stupidly, at times sinning of hubris. If one of those factors hadn't taken place then it would have been much closer, if neither then I think Pog had a good chance of winning.
 
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Roglic was outdoping the peloton, so Pogocar outdoped him to win the TdF with that ridiculous performance on Planche de Belles Filles. This year, WVA and JV outdoped Pogocar. Plus the UAE team was total crap compared to Jumbo Visma.

On an individual level, I thought it was cheesy for Roglic to bail on the Tour while JV was trying to keep the yellow jersey. Also, I thought it was cheesy of Pogocar to ride to the front two times on the final stage. He played it off as a joke the first time, and he was obviously going nowhere the second time, but it still looked douchey and very "look at me". He lost the Tour already, on the last stage, he should stay in the peloton the entire stage and draw no attention to himself. Makes me believe if JV had crashed on that prior stage, there's no way Pog would have waited for him to recover.

Also, the "best young rider" jersey should be retired after that rider wins a grand stage. Pogocar is going to be winning the white jersey for the next 5 years at this rate.

And King of the Mountains points should never be awarded on the finish line, otherwise, the GC winner will almost always win the KotM, so there's no point to it.
Yes you are talking about the arms race. But it seems to have slipped everyone’s attention that a 58Kg climber might have beaten the rampant WvA in the flat / rolling TT had Vingo not celebrated early. It was every bit as ridiculous as Pog’s performance on Planche de Belles Filles in 2020.
 
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and that you "dont believe" is not irrelevant ? His GF sure thinks fisherman gained a surpising amount of power
You just don't go all smiles and hugs with someone you genuinely believe is stealing your rightful win, so it's the logical conclusion. Sure that might be irrelevant to you.

I saw his girlfriends estimates, but I don't know where she has those numbers from. Pog might have been pushing a few more watts pre-race, but in the actual race he wasn't, according to people who analyze that stuff. He was pushing about the same as last year, which is a bit less than in 2020. Vingegaard was pushing slightly more, but not 0.5 w/kg, or even close to that, as she was claiming.
 
where is Nikolay Mikhaylov ?
a 7,5km mountain TT where he once beat Bernal sure changes everything
Hold on.. there were som famous people ahead of him. so his 9th place was understandable.
like:

  • Rebellin... who was 45 at that point (born in 1971)
  • Pelizotti 38 years (1978)
yeah that race didn't tell anything, except that given his extraordinary talent and being a MTT he couldn't even win against those guys on his terrain. I wouldn't bring this up as a way that proves his strength to be honest. (Actually i think Bernal sees this as a fail as well :p)
 
Roglic was outdoping the peloton, so Pogocar outdoped him to win the TdF with that ridiculous performance on Planche de Belles Filles. This year, WVA and JV outdoped Pogocar. Plus the UAE team was total crap compared to Jumbo Visma.

On an individual level, I thought it was cheesy for Roglic to bail on the Tour while JV was trying to keep the yellow jersey. Also, I thought it was cheesy of Pogocar to ride to the front two times on the final stage. He played it off as a joke the first time, and he was obviously going nowhere the second time, but it still looked douchey and very "look at me". He lost the Tour already, on the last stage, he should stay in the peloton the entire stage and draw no attention to himself. Makes me believe if JV had crashed on that prior stage, there's no way Pog would have waited for him to recover.

Also, the "best young rider" jersey should be retired after that rider wins a grand stage. Pogocar is going to be winning the white jersey for the next 5 years at this rate.

And King of the Mountains points should never be awarded on the finish line, otherwise, the GC winner will almost always win the KotM, so there's no point to it.
This post has so much....cheese:
1)Doping doesn't work that way. It's not like putting a restrictor plate on the other riders intake...
2)Pogacar is a young guy and having fun. The stage was 1/2 hour behind the projected finish and f*ck-all was going on. By the way...Pogacar made the Tour as much as anyone. He's entitled to draw attention to himself without checking with you first. Or me.
3)The jersies are what they are. Point taken on Pogacar....for now. There's always another young'n.
 
Also, the "best young rider" jersey should be retired after that rider wins a grand stage. Pogocar is going to be winning the white jersey for the next 5 years at this rate.
Totally agree. Once a rider has won the Tour, it makes no sense to give him the white jersey. The title of best "young rider" makes no sense when given to the best rider, as the former kinda connotes that best young rider is a separate category. At that point, why not have best "old rider" for someone 35+?
 
So the general consensus after the Tour must be:
  1. Teddy rides paniagua (magnifying Giannetti's baldness), which is enough against doped field but not enough against a lab created mutant.
  2. On some occasions in the past (PDBF or Le Grand Bornand) Teddy drank a bit of orange juice, which resulted is superb performances.
  3. Next year we will find out what a top-fuel Teddy can do.
 
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Disappointing he's not doing the Vuelta.

I think his season has been mismanaged tbh. No one gives a sh*t about the UAE Tour & it's very early on the calendar. Tirreno? He's won it before. Flèche? Apparently not his favorite type of effort. He pulled out of Liège for family reasons, did the Tour of Slovenia (another race which no one gives a *** about), lost his TdF title & now has a series of not-very-interesting races until the world championships (which is a very unrealistic target). Lombardia? He's won it already.

I'm posting this in the clinic because clinical dark arts is the underlying fuel in a pro cyclist's season & I think Pogacar should absolutely place GT's > everything else, i.e. GT's > one week stage races > monuments. In that order. With his talents & program that's how he'll build a killer cannibal palmarès.

Aim to fuel correctly for the TdF & the Vuelta, with a few one week stage races & the major monuments scattered throughout the season (Liège & Lombardia being the most logical).

Because at this rate it's going to be 11 whole months until we see Pogacar in a GT again. That's boring. Lance was boring. Vingegaard is boring. Don't be like them.
 
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Because at this rate it's going to be 11 whole months until we see Pogacar in a GT again. That's boring. Lance was boring. Vingegaard is boring. Don't be like them.
Pog is completely unlike them. He crushes rivals in early spring shows, makes cobble specialists look like amateurs in Flandres, wins Lombardy in the autumn etc. He's not boring at all with his all-year repertoire of various races.
 
Pog is completely unlike them. He crushes rivals in early spring shows, makes cobble specialists look like amateurs in Flandres, wins Lombardy in the autumn etc. He's not boring at all with his all-year repertoire of various races.
I want Pogacar to be more like Roglic. He has such huge potential to be the centre of all cycling dramas.

2020 Roglic was peak Roglic IMO (not physically, but in terms of dramatic content), i.e. dominate pre-Tour races (toying with Bernal), dramatically lose the Tour, get insulted by a Belgian pitchfork mob after Imola, fluke Liège with a one in a million chance wtf-ism win (thanks Alaphilippe) & then narrowly scrape the Vuelta after getting dropped in 3 stages. Vélo d'or guaranteed.

So yeah, Pogacar should have gone to the Vuelta 2022 & done battle with Evenepoel, Hindley & Carapaz (& Roglic as well if he didn't have a broken back). It would have been exciting.
 
Objectively untrue. Showed elite performance younger, WT results also much younger and his u23 and junior career, while not brilliant, was far better. Nothing that would show glimpses of this year's nuclear performance, but decent enough.

Dawg was simply pathetic until that infamous Vuelta. I definitely think Vingo is fishy, but the Dawg was on a whole other level.
I'm not entirely sure why people are drawing a false equivalency between vingo and dawg. It is almost a willful ignorance of their performances. I mean, vingo is completely suspicious in his trajectory, so don't get me wrong. But dawg was just laughably crazy in comparison.
 
they're completely opposite sides of the coin. froome was a nobody about to lose his spot on a WT team and then suddenly was climbing and TT'ing with the best in the world, on a team that routinely turned british donkeys into race horses. vingegaard showed talent from a very young age but is now beating known dopers times on the climbs on a team that is dominating the sport with talented riders. they aren't comparable at all.
 
they're completely opposite sides of the coin. froome was a nobody about to lose his spot on a WT team and then suddenly was climbing and TT'ing with the best in the world, on a team that routinely turned british donkeys into race horses. vingegaard showed talent from a very young age but is now beating known dopers times on the climbs on a team that is dominating the sport with talented riders. they aren't comparable at all.
Such nonsense. By introducing Froome is an obvious diversion and strawman. Forget Froome.

I just compare to the other doper Pog. He showed far superior results than Vingo at a younger age. Not even close. Opposite sides of the coin indeed. But 2023 will be fun! Top fuel Teddy? The nuclear arms race will reach new heights. But hey it’s great entertainment I suppose.
 
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they're completely opposite sides of the coin. froome was a nobody about to lose his spot on a WT team and then suddenly was climbing and TT'ing with the best in the world, on a team that routinely turned british donkeys into race horses. vingegaard showed talent from a very young age but is now beating known dopers times on the climbs on a team that is dominating the sport with talented riders. they aren't comparable at all.
Less than 2 years ago I hit the 'follow' button on Jonas Vingegaard's Instagram account when he only had a few thousand followers. That was after the Vuelta 2020 in October-November in which he did some decent work for Roglic. Mostly on the flat as well (filtering breakaways was his main job).

I don't believe a single person who now steps forward with tales about how Jonas V always showed talent at a young to the extent winning the Tour de France is plausible (or that he even compared to Pogacar). It's just a fact his 300,000 followers he's amassed since then because he's a winner now will look at his youth results & first years at Jumbo, cherry-pick some results & say "there you go! he had talent!".

The dude was a total nobody. You might as well handpick some random peloton fodder in the 2022 season with one or two half decent results in his career & say he'll win the Tour in 2024. Because that's what happened with Vingegaard, for real.
 
they were both 19 years old, that is an extremely impressive performance against seasoned pros. i never said it proved anything but it's a far better result than anything Froome did at 19.
I mean, thats obviously true purely because Froome raced his first Pro-race aged 21. But its also quite some cherrypicking, tbh. Especially the comparison with Bernal who for whatever reason indeed did not well in the 2016 Sibiu Tour (won 2017 already, however) but otherwise had a great year (his first in Europe) - Yout classification winner in Settimana Internazionale Coppi e Bartali (2.1), Youth classification winner in Giro del Trentino (2.HC), won the GC of another Romanian stage race (Tour of Bihor - Bellotto (2.2)), 4th in GC and Youth classification winner in Tour de Slovénie (2.1), 4th in his first try at Tour de l'Avenir (2.Ncup). I don't know how the 2016 comparison bodes well for Vingegaard, just because he finished 1 stage in front of Bernal. 10th in the Youth classification and 59th in the GC - thats what stands in this race for him in the end.

Obviously, his last U23 year (2019) was good. But not something that screams world-beater either (like Bernal, Pogacar and of course Evenepoel very much had). There might be good reasons or not. But to build the Froome doping story on his lack of U23 results is on the one hand somehow understandable but I think on the other hand inconsequent if Vingegaard does not get the same scrutiny then. Because I also think the differences are not that large (like in not indicating future greatness at all). Froome, still U23 in 2008, came in 14th in a TdF ITT for example. Again, I agree that this isolated does not mean much since otherwise we have many future TdF winners. But the same thing very much holds for Vingegaard (who by the way finished Avenir as 69th in his only try - not quite the GT GC supertalent, right?). As I said, the first time he really showed WT-level was 2019 - stage win in Poland, 2nd on Denmark GC (but then again - where is Niklas Larsen - same age?).

If we see youth results as indication of "clean" talent (and I am not quite sure if I agree with that, although I have to admit that I indeed like it more than sudden transformations), Vingegaard's comparison with Pogacar or Bernal ends bad. Very very bad. If he was better than Froome - maybe. But marginally. Heck, I can think of a handful Austrian (to bring a bit of my own local flair) that had way more promisisng junior results and did not end up in the top 10 of the TdF, leave alone dominating it.

Procyclingstats point charts:



 
yes Bernal was a much more obvious talent, no argument from me there. but he was also on a team that was getting into lots of good races so it was much easier for him to "show off" his talent as well. Vingegaard was stashed away on a small Danish team at the same time, he barely did any races of note at all. it's only cherrypicking because there is not much else to look at, there's no way to see what his numbers were or anything like that.

of course he is not clean IMO, his climbing times are absurd. but he has already podiumed two Tours de France at the same age that Froome was not even supposed to be selected for his breakout grand tour. it's not even close. should I post the famous chart where Brailsford himself had Froome charted as the literal worst rider on Team Sky?
 
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