Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Ripper]

Its closer, yes. But I am totally convinced that Vingegaard still wins. Anyway, I can see that Pogi steps up now another notch. And he has to.

Agreed on both counts

 

[Ripper]

Atm Pog is a bit like Ullrich

When everything pointed to Pog winning a dozen straight up tours... his Lance (Vingegaard) appears who is better TTer, better uphill.

Well, it is a bit too early to say. And Pogo has won twice as many tours as a Ulrich.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

who wants to join me in the "Tadej is Clean" meme wagon

Teddy was riding pan y agua this year for a bigger challenge. Next year he will crush Vinge.

 

[Cookster15]

Well, well, well, now you want to tell me that Vingo is somehow responsible for The Miracle on Planche des Belles Filles in 2020, or The Big Chainring Massacre on the Col de la Colombiére last year. By the way, IMHO Pog is just a talented early doper & an excellent responder and nothing more. How easily we forgot about Operation Aderlass and that the main suspects were, among others, a bunch of cyclist from surprise-surprise UAE Team Emirates and Bahrein-Merida, almost all of them from the new cycling superpower Slovenia. So, compare Pog to a real generational talent like Remco, and ask yourself how on earth Pog suddenly became Eddy The Canibal Merckx reincarnated, and in the meantime Remco won LBL once but otherwise couldn’t even sniff any GT succes?
All in all, if you‘d put Pog on JV and Vingo on the UAE team, Pog would’ve left Vingo in dust and easily won. The one and only reason because he‘s probably out of the picture to win Tour this year is his own stupidity and arrogance on the Col du Granon stage, when Roglic, Vingo and the rest of (doped) JV were throwing everything but the kitchen sink at him...

This post seems like a diversion. You admit Pog is a doper and I don't argue. But now it seems you want us to believe that today's impossible to believe TT by Vingo was something to do with Pog's stupidity on stage 11?

The best explanation I have read for what we have seen since the 2021 TdF is Jumbo took revenge for what happened in 2020. A super responder is our Vingo. A very sparse trophy cabinet compared to Pog prior to his Tour debut. At least we all knew Pog before the 2020 TdF. Few knew Vingo before the 2021 TdF.

 

[Rollthedice]

This post seems like a diversion. You admit Pog is a doper and I don't argue. But now it seems you want us to believe that today's impossible to believe TT by Vingo was something to do with Pog's stupidity on stage 11?

The best explanation I have read for what we have seen since the 2021 TdF is Jumbo took revenge for what happened in 2020. A super responder is our Vingo. A very sparse trophy cabinet compared to Pog prior to his Tour debut. At least we all knew Pog before the 2020 TdF. Few knew Vingo before the 2021 TdF.

Like Froome who was not supposed to ride the Vuelta in 2011, Vingo was not supposed to go to 2021 TdF. Now we all know Froomey was a complete unknown compared to a few interesting results by Vingo. Both had captains that underperformed or crashed and stepped up overnight to finish second. Both became world beaters by accident.

Wiggo during Tour 2021: "It's a huge race from him. I'd never heard of him before this race."

 

[topcat]

Pog got out-doped by Vinnie, G (Vin Diesel) Thomas and Wtf. He beat anyone who could plausibly be described as human. He'll be back next year smaller and stronger.

 

[Ripper]

Pog got out-doped by Vinnie, G (Vin Diesel) Thomas and Wtf. He beat anyone who could plausibly be described as human. He'll be back next year smaller and stronger.

This stuff is getting funny. He did not get out doped. No doubt others are charging and are getting more and more scientific about what they can do and what combos work best. But this is no longer a purely additive game where he who takes more of substance x, or simply graduates to substance y, will win. Or are purely created in a lab. Individual physiologies adapt and react to different routines differently. One of the reasons Ferrari was so good is because he understood this and only had certain clients; and that was then ... I am quite certain doping has evolved as much as everything else (training, nutrition, etc.).

And exception seems to be Portugal. I think that is what a gloves off open war doping slugfest looks like.

 

[Cookster15]

This stuff is getting funny. He did not get out doped. No doubt others are charging and are getting more and more scientific about what they can do and what combos work best. But this is no longer a purely additive game where he who takes more of substance x, or simply graduates to substance y, will win. Or are purely created in a lab. Individual physiologies adapt and react to different routines differently. One of the reasons Ferrari was so good is because he understood this and only had certain clients; and that was then ... I am quite certain doping has evolved as much as everything else (training, nutrition, etc.).

And exception seems to be Portugal. I think that is what a gloves off open war doping slugfest looks like.

Okay. So JV have a superior talent filtering regime. Find the best responder, apply the same methods and presto - a TdF winner! I still think Pog comes back next year and sets the record straight. But I am still struggling to understand that TT today. Just astonishing.

 

[Ripper]

Okay. So JV have a superior talent filtering regime. Find the best responder, apply the same methods and presto - a TdF winner! I still think Pog comes back next year and sets the record straight. But I am still struggling to understand that TT today. Just astonishing.

I'm not even sure they have a better 'system'. Obviously they partly look for signs of talent like any team does (WvA or Roglic with results and then testing, I think Vingo with Zwift results or Strava or somethin' and then testing; I am sure Pogo had the same routine). I think part of it is also some luck ... I mean, I don't think Roglic has appeared nearly as thermonuclear in most of his performances.

Given methods are always evolving and go in jumps rather than slow and continuous, I think Pogo will come back stronger.

The TT does not really surprise me. I think Pogo's 2020 final TT still was a moment where I just lmfao and thought, oh no, hear we go again.

 

[Cookster15]

I'm not even sure they have a better 'system'. Obviously they partly look for signs of talent like any team does (WvA or Roglic with results and then testing, I think Vingo with Zwift results or Strava or somethin' and then testing; I am sure Pogo had the same routine). I think part of it is also some luck ... I mean, I don't think Roglic has appeared nearly as thermonuclear in most of his performances.

Given methods are always evolving and go in jumps rather than slow and continuous, I think Pogo will come back stronger.

The TT does not really surprise me. I think Pogo's 2020 final TT still was a moment where I just lmfao and thought, oh no, hear we go again.

What gets me about the TT is basic physics. And I think today was astonishing and at least on par with WvA’s super humanity.

We know end of a GT is about recovery. But over 50km/h for a 60Kg skeleton over 40km is really too much. At least Annecy 2009 had a climb (Contador vs Cancellara). And with regard to Pogo, yes that day was beyond belief but overall at least he had some top results before that TdF. There was absolutely nothing in early July 2021 to suggest what was to come for Vingo. Then of course there is the rest of his team even LaPorte. No, I am not entertained.

 

[Luthor]

It's amazing to me that if vingo was not in this race, pogo would have absolutely obliterated everyone with margins similar to last year.

If pogo doesn't keep on burning matches left, right, and center in every stage, and UAE ride better, it's a much closer race.

There is also the heat and the route which was not in Pog's favor. Ventoux last year and Loze in 2020 are the only times Pog was dropped before this year. Both scenarios repeated this year on Hautacam & Granon.
With a better team, riding more conservative, less heat and a punchy route he could've won the same way Roglic beat Carapaz in Vuelta, due to bonus seconds.

 

[Riek s]

What gets me about the TT is basic physics. And I think today was astonishing and at least on par with WvA’s super humanity.

We know end of a GT is about recovery. But over 50km/h for a 60Kg skeleton over 40km is really too much. At least Annecy 2009 had a climb (Contador vs Cancellara). And with regard to Pogo, yes that day was beyond belief but overall at least he had some top results before that TdF. There was absolutely nothing in early July 2021 to suggest what was to come for Vingo. Then of course there is the rest of his team even LaPorte. No, I am not entertained.

Actually i don't mind 60kg skeletons beating heavier guys in certain condititions. Its the same with Remco, on a pan flat timetrial he has a shot if its headwind, an no shot at all if its tailwind. (ofcourse remco best TT is @ 63kg and not 58kg)

Thing here is that the skeleton in question seems to be lighter than Remco (3-5kg while being taller), less Aero than Remco (I assume from looking at his frontal surface) and had no meaningfull TT in his debut year in the pro rank (so it came out of nowhere, whereas most TTers show result during the early years). (the last point maybe the most :/ one)

 

[topcat]

This stuff is getting funny. He did not get out doped. No doubt others are charging and are getting more and more scientific about what they can do and what combos work best. But this is no longer a purely additive game where he who takes more of substance x, or simply graduates to substance y, will win. Or are purely created in a lab. Individual physiologies adapt and react to different routines differently. One of the reasons Ferrari was so good is because he understood this and only had certain clients; and that was then ... I am quite certain doping has evolved as much as everything else (training, nutrition, etc.).

And exception seems to be Portugal. I think that is what a gloves off open war doping slugfest looks like.

Roglic rumoured to be going to Ineos. If that happens, we have all the ingredients for a sophisticated, scientific arms race.

 

[Cookster15]

There is also the heat and the route which was not in Pog's favor. Ventoux last year and Loze in 2020 are the only times Pog was dropped before this year. Both scenarios repeated this year on Hautacam & Granon.
With a better team, riding more conservative, less heat and a punchy route he could've won the same way Roglic beat Carapaz in Vuelta, due to bonus seconds.

Yes I am surprised not more has been said about Pog and the heat. That being said I don’t think Denmark is warmer than Slovenia? So I actually think that might be even more evidence against Jonas’s credibility?

 

[Brumdog66]

Roglic rumoured to be going to Ineos. If that happens, we have all the ingredients for a sophisticated, scientific arms race.

If this happens then next years tour will be the best ever until Roglic crashes out in stage 4

 

[Pantani Attacks]

wau, you honestly believe the fisherman is a better rider than Pog ? the biggest dope since Landis is what we witnessed this year

I too wish I could completely forget the years of Froome...

 

[gunara]

Roglic rumoured to be going to Ineos. If that happens, we have all the ingredients for a sophisticated, scientific arms race.

Then I hope UAE will be properly prepared and go all in for the Tour, so maybe we can have pre-war time gaps to the 4th place or whoever get close.

 

[Ripper]

Actually i don't mind 60kg skeletons beating heavier guys in certain condititions. Its the same with Remco, on a pan flat timetrial he has a shot if its headwind, an no shot at all if its tailwind. (ofcourse remco best TT is @ 63kg and not 58kg)

Thing here is that the skeleton in question seems to be lighter than Remco (3-5kg while being taller), less Aero than Remco (I assume from looking at his frontal surface) and had no meaningfull TT in his debut year in the pro rank (so it came out of nowhere, whereas most TTers show result during the early years). (the last point maybe the most :/ one)

Vingo is super aero, it's his trout like shoulders!

 

[Ripper]

Roglic rumoured to be going to Ineos. If that happens, we have all the ingredients for a sophisticated, scientific arms race.

Interesting

 

[Ripper]

Yes I am surprised not more has been said about Pog and the heat. That being said I don’t think Denmark is warmer than Slovenia? So I actually think that might be even more evidence against Jonas’s credibility?

Heat tolerance does not work purely like that. Some people acclimatize to the heat well, even if they are from cooler climates. Meanwhile, some people who might have grown up in warmer climates, re-acclimatize the heat more slowly or less efficiently.

So who knows for sure? Regardless, if one truly performs much better in the cold and wet, and the other truly performs better in the hot and dry, it should make for some interesting dynamics in the future.

 

[Mayomaniac]

No more classics for Pogi next spring and I'd be surprise if he wasn't going to loose some of the "baby fat" and show up a 2-3 kg lighter and as skinny as many other gc riders besides him and Roglic.
It is interesting, in the last years it looked like wwe had moved a bt away from the super thin AICAR look, like guys were using different methodes, but Jonas is a throwback to that era. (or even further back to guys like the real Rasmussen and Tyler Hamilton)

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

No more classics for Pogi next spring and I'd be surprise if he wasn't going to loose some of the "baby fat" and show up a 2-3 kg lighter and as skinny as many other gc riders besides him and Roglic.
It is interesting, in the last years it looked like wwe had moved a bt away from the super thin AICAR look, like guys were using different methodes, but Jonas is a throwback to that era. (or even further back to guys like the real Rasmussen and Tyler Hamilton)

Yeah I think next year will be similar to 2014 when Contador realized he needed to take a different approach after getting crushed in 2013 and came back a different animal.

 

[topt]

I too wish I could completely forget the years of Froome...

No, the fisherman is even a bigger nobody than Froome was

 

[fbjim]

can't be accused of a sudden improvement in form if nobody's heard of you before!!

 

[topt]

You missed my point. I don't believe Pogacar feels he is being cheated by Vingegaard. I'm aware that you do, but that's irrelevant.

and that you "dont believe" is not irrelevant ? His GF sure thinks fisherman gained a surpising amount of power