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Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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DFA123

DFA123

Nov 7, 2010
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Bavarianrider said:
Michelle Ferrari himself called Mayos and Bin s ascent die n 2003 remarkable with a Van of 1800. You can still find IT ob his Homepage. And yet here comes ich He 2020 peleton and absolutely destroys the super chargef 2003 Legends. Yeah nothing to See here
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It isn't really a direct comparison though, even ignoring variables like the weather and tactics. In 2003 they started the climb from Luchon; that's 4km of climbing more than from the Port de Bales turn off.

So the 2003 time was really the last 25 minutes of a 35ish minute effort. And it was the sixth categorized climb of the day, not the third.
Which is not to say that Pogacar's climbing time isn't still really, really fast. Just that it's misleading comparing it directly with 2003.
 
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Red Rick

Red Rick

Feb 20, 2012
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DFA123 said:
It isn't really a direct comparison though, even ignoring variables like the weather and tactics. In 2003 they started the climb from Luchon; that's 4km of climbing more than from the Port de Bales turn off.

So the 2003 time was really the last 25 minutes of a 35ish minute effort. And it was the sixth categorized climb of the day, not the third.
Which is not to say that Pogacar's climbing time isn't still really, really fast. Just that it's misleading comparing it directly with 2003.
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Yeah, but that's also ignoring they've done the Peyresourde straight after Bales multiple times and gone 2 full minutes slower most times
 
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DFA123

DFA123

Nov 7, 2010
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Red Rick said:
Yeah, but that's also ignoring they've done the Peyresourde straight after Bales multiple times and gone 2 full minutes slower most times
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The Peyresourde wasn't the last climb of the day though on most of those occasions; they usually finished on Peyragudes, which changes the nature of the racing completely.

I think 2007 was the only other occasion where Peyresourde was last climb of the day coming after Bales.
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

Feb 20, 2012
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DFA123 said:
The Peyresourde wasn't the last climb of the day though on most of those occasions; they usually finished on Peyragudes, which changes the nature of the racing completely.

I think 2007 was the only other occasion where Peyresourde was last climb of the day coming after Bales.
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Just going by the group size over the Peyresourde in Peyragudes finishes it shouldn't be the biggest difference and maybe only a difference for the top 5 or so on the stage.

The climbing time I'm missing is Valverde 2012.
 
DFA123

DFA123

Nov 7, 2010
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Red Rick said:
Just going by the group size over the Peyresourde in Peyragudes finishes it shouldn't be the biggest difference and maybe only a difference for the top 5 or so on the stage.

The climbing time I'm missing is Valverde 2012.
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I guess Valverde's was probably too slow to be noteworthy, because he was in the break all day, riding a lot of it solo.
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

Feb 20, 2012
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DFA123 said:
I guess Valverde's was probably too slow to be noteworthy, because he was in the break all day, riding a lot of it solo.
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It was probably slower than Nans Peters, which would be my reference for that.

IIRC he lost like 1'30 to the peloton on the Peyresourde that day? Would make his time about a minute slower than Nans Peters.
 
DFA123

DFA123

Nov 7, 2010
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Red Rick said:
It was probably slower than Nans Peters, which would be my reference for that.

IIRC he lost like 1'30 to the peloton on the Peyresourde that day? Would make his time about a minute slower than Nans Peters.
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Yeah, that sounds about right. I wonder what time Froome would have set that day if he would have been allowed off the leash?
 
Bavarianrider

Bavarianrider

Apr 7, 2011
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DFA123 said:
This is massive hyperbole. The fact that so many riders put in very fast times yesterday clearly points at weather/tactics/position in stage as being primarily responsible.
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No IT IS Not. Obviously Pogacar isn't the only who is on the new stuff. Nobody Claims that. But You can't be AS blind Not to realize that 1850+ Vam in a less then 8 percent climb over more than 20 minutes has hardly ever happened. If It Has happened at all.
 
DFA123

DFA123

Nov 7, 2010
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Bavarianrider said:
No IT IS Not. Obviously Pogacar isn't the only who is on the new stuff. Nobody Claims that. But You can't be AS blind Not to realize that 1850+ Vam in a less then 8 percent climb over more than 20 minutes has hardly ever happened. If It Has happened at all.
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I'm not going to draw conclusions from one data point. If the same pattern of super fast climbing times repeats throughout the race, then I agree then something looks to be up. But there are so many other factors that can influence the times other than doping, that it's ridiculous to jump to conclusions based on one climb.
 
Logic-is-your-friend

Logic-is-your-friend

Jun 7, 2011
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GuntherL said:
"quick to draw conclusions, when it concerns a rider they don't like"
I had my suspicions about Pogacar since last year's Vuelta and it's not a matter of liking or disliking.
I just hate cheating. I'm still furious that Gilbert got away with his 'miracle year' 2011, Horner won the Vuelta at age 41 win or Indurain never got caught.

I've read all kinds of hilarious excuses to explain yesterday's climb. The wind is one of them. Apparently, only Pogacar benefited from it, because everyone else lost at least 45 seconds in the final 4 km.
Another great one: the other riders didn't want to follow Pogacar. Yeah, right. That's why Roglic jumped on his wheel twice before being left behind.
Multiple accelerations on a long climb are a red flag. They're from a different era.
If you see other inconsistencies in today's peloton, point them out.
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My post wasn't directed at you specifically. It's a general issue in the clinic. People pointing fingers without knowing all the facts, without any authority on the subject. I've read the motive many times, that "we have to stay vigilant/shouldn't be naïve/have the best interest of the sport at heart/..." but one rider has a 40 page threat, while another doesn't. It's clear some rider are targeted and others are not, and it has nothing to do with facts or performances. It's painfully clear that it is overly subjective how "fans" handle the issue. And if there is one issue in cycling that should be handled as objectively as humanly possible, it is this.

Considering Pogacar's performance yesterday. He wasn't the only rider breaking the record, which indicates it's not as simple as it's being presented. Yes wind can make a big difference. The length of the stage can also make a difference. The number of climbs before as well as the number of climbs after, can make a difference. Tactics can make a difference. I agree that attacking multiple times might look fishy, but do we know at which gradients he attacked? It didn't look that steep when he attacked, but i could be wrong.
 
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yaco

Jun 20, 2015
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Seriously, the first part of the stage was a coffee ride and it's no wonder they rode quickly up the mountain - Today will be different with the hard racing in the first 90 minutes of the stage.
 
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samhocking

Mar 13, 2013
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Brumdog66

Jan 18, 2020
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I'm not very clued up on doping stuff just find it unlikely that any top riders aren't using. I understand that this isn't an excuse as use of illegal drugs gives the teams with more money a big advantage I just think the comparisons of he dopes but he doesn't are silly.
 
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samhocking

Mar 13, 2013
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At the basic level, doping for athletes is a legal matter of rules. Break rules = doping, don't break rules = clean. Everything else we want doping/clean to actually mean is personal opinion of what we wish the rules to be and various additions of indeterminable ethical lines. My view is, so long as anti-doping rules are obeyed it's a huge improvement over the past 60 years since anti-doping entered cycling.
 
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