Question Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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Really the pretense that cycling is cleanz just because you like a current rider is much more magical thinking than a scepticism fed by decades of cycling history. If wanting to engage in an open minded discussion about the whats, whys and how of doping makes one a hypocritic dweller, thats your problem.

Or maybe I should just be really sorry I don't believe in miracles.
I have a feeling you are completely missing the point of what i'm saying. I'm not saying everybody is riding clean(z). I'm not saying Pogacar, Evenepoel, van der Poel, van Aert are definitely riding clean(z). My opinion regarding hypocrites was not towards people wanting to know what's happening and being skeptical. That's not what i'm saying and that's completely besides the point that i've been making.

It is however hypocritical for the "clinic" subforum as a community and some of its frontrunners, to single out certain riders, point fingers at certain riders based on little more than gut feelings, while completely ignoring other riders. I don't defend a rider because i like him, i do think the opposite happens here all the time.

A reminder:

The reason Bernal and Pogacar don't have huge Clinic threads is nobody defends them at all costs. That's basically the reason Sky threads and Armstrong threads were so big.
Please explain to me, where people could be defending Bernal at all costs, if he doesn't have a clinic thread to begin with, and if clinic talk isn't allowed in the general forum. How does that work exactly, Rick? Youngest TDF winner in half a century, but apparently you (and many others here) don't seem to think that's suspicious. But let's talk about doping because we don't trust what we're seeing? Give me a break. And if people do find it suspicious, then why hasn't there been a thread for ages? Evenepoel got one because he became JUNIOR world champ. See, it's completely the other way around, people will make accusations and point fingers about riders they don't like. This is why i'm saying many people here are posting with an agenda (and being hypocrites). And when people are posting with an agenda, they will not go for an honest discussion and they will try to steer the narrative. You said the video of Evenepoel taking something from a small white bottle and putting it in his back pocket was "grasping at straws", but you didn't think a video of Bramati taking something from his pocket was grasping at straws. A plausible explanation is grasping at straws, but vague footage which ultimately shows nothing, isn't. Most of the debate is based on hunches, gut feeling, personal preference (hypocrisy) and skepticism. How can you expect to have an honest and in depth discussion that way, that doesn't stray into tinfoil-hat territory?

I'm sure there are some posters here who actually know what they're talking about, but i can't tell who they are at this point.

Also in this topic, regarding Pog's performance. Stating there was advantageous wind, the stage was short, it was the first week, only 3 mountains in the stage... is being ridiculed as being naïve BS. Then, was Pogacar pretending not to be as good the next day, or was whatever he was having very short term? As long as it is about spreading suspicion, anything goes. But when you post possible explanations it's laughable, naïve or "grasping at straws". That's why you can't have a serious/honest discussion.
 
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Please explain to me, where people could be defending Bernal at all costs, if he doesn't have a clinic thread to begin with, and if clinic talk isn't allowed in the general forum. How does that work exactly, Rick? Youngest TDF winner in half a century, but apparently you (and many others here) don't seem to think that's suspicious.
How do you conclude that?
I never created a thread in the clinic*, but that doesn't automatically mean I believe Bernal (or any rider for that matter) is clean. It doesn't work this way.

*as far as I can remember
 
It isn't really a direct comparison though, even ignoring variables like the weather and tactics. In 2003 they started the climb from Luchon; that's 4km of climbing more than from the Port de Bales turn off.

So the 2003 time was really the last 25 minutes of a 35ish minute effort. And it was the sixth categorized climb of the day, not the third.
Which is not to say that Pogacar's climbing time isn't still really, really fast. Just that it's misleading comparing it directly with 2003.
DFA has made some good points in this thread. In addition to that:

The 2003 and 2007 climbs came much later in the race. In 2007 they climbed Perysourde the stage after PDB, which was crazy hard/fast.

This year it was only the third and final climb of the day, and the peloton soft pedalled a great deal for the first two-thirds of the stage. Would have Peters or whatever his name is, been able to win the same stage in 2003?

Also, most of us had just finished our complaining about how incredible slowly that stages 5 and 6 had been ridden.

Overall distances of stages are also a little less these days, or at least they seem to be. Maybe riding 20-30 kms less each day adds up.

And multi mountain Pyrenean stages were usually 50 kms longer, so it would make sense that riders are fresher now when approaching the Perysourde.

That probably doesn't explain the full 50 seconds, but maybe some of it?

It would be interesting to know what the wind conditions were like in other years on this climb.
 
Gianetti's heritage:
As a rider he nearly died in 1998 because he experimented with PFC.

His main achievements as a manager:
2007: Mayo: EPO
2008: Ricco and Piepoli: Cera
2009: Fernandez de la Puebla: EPO
2011: Cobo (abnormal values in biological passport)
Gianetti is almost a guarantee for some kind of doping usage.

Having said that if you feel that a rider who did doping himself and was involved in teams with doped riders in the 00's cant be involved in cycling anymore then a large % of current DS's, team managers and 'ploegleiders' can't be involved. There will never be a ban on those guys because they are the core of the pro-cycling world.
 
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Are you defending Lefevere?
Not at all. Lefevere has been part of it, like everyone who was successful in the nineties and early 2000's.
There are a few things we have to keep in mind though.

It seems like there was at least some control in his teams. Remember Frank VDB. He completely went off the rails when le left Lefeveres team for Cofidis.
VDB (Cofidis): dead at 35, Gaumont (Cofidis): dead at 40.
I think it was worse in many other teams. Just look at Banesto's Jimenez. Dead at 32.

The Festina affair clearly showed that our judgment of team managers and doctors is not always correct.
Although doctor Rijckaert was convicted, Willy Voet has frequently said that the doctor limited doping use, protecting the health of the riders.
Team manager Bruno Roussel was apparently anti-doping, but set up an organized system when he saw that his riders were doping themselves without medical guidance.

Is that also the case for Lefevere and Vanmol? I think it's likely. I don't think they're in the same league as Giannetti.
 
How do you conclude that?
I never created a thread in the clinic*, but that doesn't automatically mean I believe Bernal (or any rider for that matter) is clean. It doesn't work this way.

*as far as I can remember
I don't actually conclude that, i'm playing devil's advocate. It's a fallacy to show that people will make a clinic topic out of personal preference and not out of facts. There is no other way to explain why one rider gets a thread, and the other doesn't for a much more remarkable feat. That was the point. Furthermore the explanation held no water, since at the time he made the comment, neither Pog nor Bernal had a clinic topic to begin with.
 
I don't actually conclude that, i'm playing devil's advocate. It's a fallacy to show that people will make a clinic topic out of personal preference and not out of facts. There is no other way to explain why one rider gets a thread, and the other doesn't for a much more remarkable feat. That was the point. Furthermore the explanation held no water, since at the time he made the comment, neither Pog nor Bernal had a clinic topic to begin with.
The idea of cheating makes people emotional and suddenly logic is no longer their friend. It's also true that without a positive test you never have undeniable proof. You have to resort to circumstancial evidence.

I have one major issue with Pogacar. Even at the World Championships U-23 in 2018, Pogacar couldn't climb with the best.
Why did this guy suddenly become the best climber in the world after moving to UAE a few months later? I think that's a fair question.

When I look at Bernals performances, I see no reason to focus on him. The improvement seems to be natural and he achieved it in 2 different teams.
The same goes for Hirschi.
Is that a guarantee that Hirschi and Bernal are clean? Not at all, but if I had to put my chips on two of those three, they are the ones I would pick.
 
Bardet on the race so far:

“It’s being raced faster than before,” he said. “We’re breaking all the climbing records on every col we go up on this Tour, but you have to hang on, believe in yourself and you never know. You feel that teams are less strong than on the Dauphiné, so you need stay confident and optimistic.”

Maybe fmk_Rol can find a way to downvote Bardet for saying such crazy things.
 
Not at all. Lefevere has been part of it, like everyone who was successful in the nineties and early 2000's.
There are a few things we have to keep in mind though.

It seems like there was at least some control in his teams. Remember Frank VDB. He completely went off the rails when le left Lefeveres team for Cofidis.
VDB (Cofidis): dead at 35, Gaumont (Cofidis): dead at 40.
I think it was worse in many other teams. Just look at Banesto's Jimenez. Dead at 32.

The Festina affair clearly showed that our judgment of team managers and doctors is not always correct.
Although doctor Rijckaert was convicted, Willy Voet has frequently said that the doctor limited doping use, protecting the health of the riders.
Team manager Bruno Roussel was apparently anti-doping, but set up an organized system when he saw that his riders were doping themselves without medical guidance.

Is that also the case for Lefevere and Vanmol? I think it's likely. I don't think they're in the same league as Giannetti.
Lefevre also signed Ibarguren as a team doctor and he's as infamous as they come.

Back to Gianetti, he's of course one of the shadiest guys in the sport, but this time he has filthy rich backers, so I doubt anything relevant will happen to him and his team.
 
Bardet on the race so far:



I'm pretty sure they're not breaking climbing records on every col. They certainly didn't on Col de Mente or Port de Bales. So perhaps Peyresourde and Marie-Blanque. But Marie-Blanque is almost never used as the final climb, so Peyresourde is still the only real eye-opener I think.

Still, it's interesting to hear that he thinks the level is so high this year. Even if it might be a bit subjective, I think these rider testimonies are worth a lot - and it suggests there might be more too it than just an easy course or favourable weather.
 
I'm pretty sure they're not breaking climbing records on every col. They certainly didn't on Col de Mente or Port de Bales. So perhaps Peyresourde and Marie-Blanque. But Marie-Blanque is almost never used as the final climb, so Peyresourde is still the only real eye-opener I think.

Still, it's interesting to hear that he thinks the level is so high this year. Even if it might be a bit subjective, I think these rider testimonies are worth a lot - and it suggests there might be more too it than just an easy course or favourable weather.
Yes, I think the larger point is his impression of the level. And at least some records are being broken...by a lot. He's far from the only one inside the sport conveying this impression.
 
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Absolutely. But Pogs strava showed some insane Watts, but I don't know how reliable those are.
Yea I don't place an ounce of faith in measured power output. That said, my back of the envelope calculations show his recorded power to be in line with what you'd expect based on Buchmann's recorded power.

(for the part of the climb where they were both sheltered in wheels and assuming 130lbs / 146lbs and a few extra pounds for bikes and equipment)
 
Ricco was a level above anything ever, wasn't he. Never forget the sight of him and Piepoli breaking away, with the pair of them having a look of infantile delight on their faces, almost as if they couldn't quite believe how well their drugs were working.

It was Pogačar's post race rap that did it for me. Might be unfair of me, but my initial reaction was that he might be as thick as Ricco.
 
Yea I don't place an ounce of faith in measured power output. That said, my back of the envelope calculations show his recorded power to be in line with what you'd expect based on Buchmann's recorded power.

(for the part of the climb where they were both sheltered in wheels and assuming 130lbs / 146lbs and a few extra pounds for bikes and equipment)
It also depends on the rider. Pinot has some strava files which just go 500 average while in a semi flat stage
 
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