Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Netserk]

There's no dope that makes you go this much faster.

It did 30 years ago, roughly.

 

[Raest]

Well there is the more mundane explanation that Pog is indeed a specimen that naturally would be at the extreme of what is considered physiologically possible (keyword here: naturally) then taken to new levels of performance by using well known and proven methods of enhancement.
If for example an FTP of 6.3-6.4 W/kg is hypothesized to be the ceiling of natural performance and Pog is an outlier who could do 6.5, good old EPO and the reported 10% gain it provides would take him to 7+ W/kg which is what has been estimated as being his FTP based on the Plateu de Beiles performance (and others).
Same could be argued for Vingo. They don't have to be donkeys, turned into thoroubreds via some cutting edge and dangerous method.

 

[Extinction]

Well there is the more mundane explanation that Pog is indeed a specimen that naturally would be at the extreme of what is considered physiologically possible (keyword here: naturally) then taken to new levels of performance by using well known and proven methods of enhancement.
If for example an FTP of 6.3-6.4 W/kg is hypothesized to be the ceiling of natural performance and Pog is an outlier who could do 6.5, good old EPO and the reported 10% gain it provides would take him to 7+ W/kg which is what has been estimated as being his FTP based on the Plateu de Beiles performance (and others).
Same could be argued for Vingo. They don't have to be donkeys, turned into thoroubreds via some cutting edge and dangerous method.

Sure, Pog is definitely no donkey, but you have to realize that the mentality of those managing him is full arms race, now funded by petrol dollars. Somehow they have managed to stay in the sport, but today with the economic means to reign over it. From fallen Saunier-Duval to Lord of the Rings, it's mind boggling.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Yeah, as I've been arguing, because I think it really happened, Giannetti-Matxin simply upped the dosage and so Teddy went balistic. Ricco was an un popular figure, because he was brutally straightforward, said what's on his mind unhipocritically. With Tadej it's different. They think they can do whatever they want with impunity. I just hope the floor falls out beneath them.

When it doubt, double the does.

 

[solo80k]

It did 30 years ago, roughly.

On PdB they smoked Pantani's record by a huge margin. Even our old friend Landini was almost as fast as Italian Pirate.

 

[topcat]

Blood manipulation (EPO?) and a motor.

 

[Netserk]

On PdB they smoked Pantani's record by a huge margin. Even our old friend Landini was almost as fast as Italian Pirate.

They did indeed. It was however "only" superior to the peak EPO performances by a much smaller margin, one that should be in range of what improved (standard) doping and other marginal gains over 30 years could account for. So theoretically at least, if there were no (binding) anti-doping constraints, the speed on Plateau de Beille can "easily" be explained by doping alone. As such, the level of performance alone is not sufficient to infer that motors/gene-doping/etc. must have been in play. Blood doping is extremely potent.

 

[Extinction]

They did indeed. It was however "only" superior to the peak EPO performances by a much smaller margin, one that should be in range of what improved (standard) doping and other marginal gains over 30 years could account for. So theoretically at least, if there were no (binding) anti-doping constraints, the speed on Plateau de Beille can "easily" be explained by doping alone. As such, the level of performance alone is not sufficient to infer that motors/gene-doping/etc. must have been in play. Blood doping is extremely potent.

Can you explain the bolded, because it's not clear to me what mean? Thanks

 

[Nick2413]

PdB is one thing, but does blood doping alone make as much sense in all the other races and huge long range attacks all year round with no down time? On both sustained marathons and short accelerations? Maybe it does. But I think it’s at least some combination of something more complex. It’s also easier to have parity with just basic blood doping, but the lone outlier is a long way away from everyone else here.

 

[Netserk]

Can you explain the bolded, because it's not clear to me what mean? Thanks

Plateau de Beille in 1998 was far from the most impressive performance by Pantani. Alpe d'Huez in 1995 (also at the end of a hard stage) is a much better benchmark. By @NaichacaCycling's measure, PdB '24 was ~2.0 % better than AdH '95.

So roughly (and this is quite imprecise to be clear), it'd be equivalent to Pogi beating the record by ~50" instead of shattering it by more than three minutes.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Blood manipulation (EPO?) and a motor.

Indeed, that's what I am leaning to, given the overall speed increase in the peloton not limited to just "Pogi". There is likely some updated EPO at work, with "Poggo" being must faster still. On top of that, he is not just much faster but much faster March to October with no "peaks" to speak of. The whole season is one giant peak. And, on top of all that, he literally does not break a sweat during all those Pantani-humiliating exploits. The latter two moments suggest very strongly that there is something truly indefatigable (i.e. non-biological) working in the background.

 

[Netserk]

PdB is one thing, but does blood doping alone make as much sense in all the other races and huge long range attacks all year round with no down time? On both sustained marathons and short accelerations? Maybe it does. But I think it’s at least some combination of something more complex. It’s also easier to have parity with just basic blood doping, but the lone outlier is a long way away from everyone else here.

I don't know. We are so deep in the dark wrt currently best doping practice that it's hard to make sense of. The picture was far clearer a decade ago.

 

[snipeheem]

Plateau de Beille in 1998 was far from the most impressive performance by Pantani. Alpe d'Huez in 1995 (also at the end of a hard stage) is a much better benchmark. By @NaichacaCycling's measure, PdB '24 was ~2.0 % better than AdH '95.

So roughly (and this is quite imprecise to be clear), it'd be equivalent to Pogi beating the record by ~50" instead of shattering it by more than three minutes.

It’d be equivalent to 35:32 on AdH by Pogi according to Ammatti

 

[Oldermanish]

But we ask ourselves, why does a nation like UAE invest so fragrantly in the sport at all? Is cycling popular in that country? Are there any real financial incentives for those invested to fund cycling, other then expanding capital portfolios? Who watches cycling in UAE? We know the answer, but we might get censored for pointing this out.

It's all a market play. Real estate empires, airlines, investment hubs all need something to draw in the money. Polo, F1, WC football are part of it. Cycling is relatively cheap because it travels to all markets and a winning UAE logo on worldwide television is the payoff. No one remembers to care how the countries are run, their human rights standing and treatment of the working non-class of immigrants fades from focus.

 

[Oldermanish]

It would be great to see a study with relative performance increases between teams to evaluate who is benefiting most of both the world and pro teams to start untangling the web. Kern Pharma shows that a team-managed program is possible even with minor budget but possibly only for a few riders and for a specific period. UAE seems to have an all-year and all-team program focussed on Pogacar but with others such as Hirschi maximizing their chances also. Visma is running behind, maybe because they are more cautious. The focus is mainly on Vingegaard who asks no questions and just executes. In general, riders and teams in regions with less media and regulations seem to make the biggest leaps this year (UAE, Kern Pharma, Portugal ...), which indicates that it is widespread now and those which can take the highest risk make most progress.

The wild card in the disparity can be both random and simple: some athletes respond more positively to a regime/training and for a longer period. The crashes are a real deal, though and upset the most planned campaigns. Much of what we've seen can be tracked with the injuries. The riders that are ending the season showed "heroic" recoveries but the knock-off effect is consistency and longevity. In those respects the business isn't that much different than other seasons.

 

[Netserk]

It’d be equivalent to 35:22 on AdH by Pogi according to Ammatti

I should have phrased that differently. I meant to convey the gap in performance and illustrated that by speed, though the gap in performance and gap in speed is not the same. So if Pantani with his Alpe legs and modern equipment rode next to Pogi (had similar draft as him) in the 2024 stage, the gap between them would have been thereabout, with some simplifying assumptions.

 

[Casual cyclist]

I don't want to argue. But it's not sci fi. UAE spends millions and millions of dollars on CRISPR.

A bit of offtop but just could not resist. Will be brief. Here we see that famous money fetishism described by K.Marx in XIX century at work. In the modern society nobody is fully immune to it (myself included), so please do not take this as a criticism. Other popular examples of it are "Elon spends billions and billions on "starship", so he will get us to Mars eventually," "We would have had controlled fusion long ago if the investments in it had been10 times larger," etc. Unfortunately (or fortunately), money does not buy intelligence which is more complicated than that.

They don't know what the word ethical means. And let's be honoust, y'all guessing what kind of dope they use. There's no dope that makes you go this much faster.

Sure there is. It also makes you go much faster for as long as you care and leaves you fresh in the process. It is based on the good old Faraday law.

It's genetic manipulation. It's non detectable. It will take some time (as in +15 years) but you will think of notarobot when all this comes out. Just know where you heard it first!

Duly noted. Thanks. Let's wait a bit.

 

[topt]

The racing sucks and it’s directly attributable to what can only realistically be a destructive amount of doping. The sport has become unwatchable this year for anyone not religiously devoted to this one rider.

unwatchable for whom ? you and 5 other posters that live in the clinic ?
"destructive amount of doping" oh man, I ll get banned again if I say what I think about this crap

 

[topt]

You have followed the sport for the last 30, 40 years, no? Had you, you would have no doubts or if you have and still have faith, then I have a used car to sell you (or a nice pair of glasses). It's a great deal!

I have and I do, that is why I watch it.
why do you watch cycling than ? everybody that is to good is doping, what is the point of the sport than, everybody to be equal and we sing kumabya ? damn I hate this perception of cycling; every fkcing other sport is celbrating those that stand out but cycling hell no; you are a doper.

 

[Casual cyclist]

unwatchable for whom ? you and 5 other posters that live in the clinic ?
"destructive amount of doping" oh man, I ll get banned again if I say what I think about this crap

Honestly, I find it a bit intriguing that you (and the likes of you) care about these hapless "5 posters". You -- according to your own admission -- are with the majority that finds the present flavor of cycling highly watchable and exciting, even if a bit predictable (or maybe even not that). Why worry about this poor incredulous handful of souls? Do you consider yourself a missionary of sorts? Honest question. No sarcasm.

 

[Nick2413]

unwatchable for whom ? you and 5 other posters that live in the clinic ?
"destructive amount of doping" oh man, I ll get banned again if I say what I think about this crap

What is it you find so thrilling about the escapades of this season? That we’re watching history?

 

[peterfin]

I have and I do, that is why I watch it.
why do you watch cycling than ? everybody that is to good is doping, what is the point of the sport than, everybody to be equal and we sing kumabya ? damn I hate this perception of cycling; every fkcing other sport is celbrating those that stand out but cycling hell no; you are a doper.

Too good in being physically impossible without doping is indeed doping.

 

[Extinction]

I have and I do, that is why I watch it.
why do you watch cycling than ? everybody that is to good is doping, what is the point of the sport than, everybody to be equal and we sing kumabya ? damn I hate this perception of cycling; every fkcing other sport is celbrating those that stand out but cycling hell no; you are a doper.

First of all we have to concede that doping is the constant (if you don't, you are dilusional). And then we have to ask ourselves, which regime is worth looking the other way at and which is not? A certain level of hipocracy is unavoidable under such circumstances, otherwise, as you say, what is the point of watching at all? I classify an operation run by Giannetti-Matxin in the latter, because they worked with Ricco-Piepoli and now have the Christ of cycling. Being too outstanding really becomes intolerable under them. It's just an affront to all decency. I have enjoyed cycling, even knowing how the game is played (with a certain level of victomhood), but when things get out of control basta, something just demands to be said. The really weird thing is that Riis worked with Basso and Pevenage Ullrich and I looked the other way, as they provided a bulwark against the hegemony of Armstrong. We are all hipocrats to stay interested, but this Pogacar trumps all in the narrative of plausibility.

 

[Stablo]

I have and I do, that is why I watch it.
why do you watch cycling than ? everybody that is to good is doping, what is the point of the sport than, everybody to be equal and we sing kumabya ? damn I hate this perception of cycling; every fkcing other sport is celbrating those that stand out but cycling hell no; you are a doper.

There's just a tiny difference in "standing out" in an endurance sport and what Poggie&UAE have been doing all season long. And honestly if you don't get it, i don't know what to say anymore, that hasn't been already said and explained here before 🤷‍♂️

 

[Raest]

I have and I do, that is why I watch it.
why do you watch cycling than ? everybody that is to good is doping, what is the point of the sport than, everybody to be equal and we sing kumabya ? damn I hate this perception of cycling; every fkcing other sport is celbrating those that stand out but cycling hell no; you are a doper.

To your question.. Why do we care:
a) Because it's becoming unwatchable and boring AF. You may enjoy acts of dominance or you may be a Pogie fan in which case you find him winning everything from 100 km out exhilarating but others don't.
b) Because it's an affront to our intelligence and experience. He's blown away records that stood for 20 something years, done by cyclists that were doped to the gills ("generational talents" they were called at the time - and probably were) doing numbers thatwere thought (and are) well beyond the human physiological capacity.
c) Some of us might be perplexed, annoyed or even bemused that everyone seems to be looking the other way. It's a cycling version of the Emperor's clothes parable with drugs (or batteries) instead of clothes. Every time I hear or watch the Eurosport announcers fawning over a 7.0 W/kg 40 minute effort, wondering in faux amazement "how does he do that" I am reminded of this Bill Bur set

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I745Ajeq_B8
only the question is some variation of "how can he do that time after time" (instead of why aren't women players paid as much as men) and the answer "because he is doped to the frigging gills" (sounds more funny if you imagine Burr delivering it)
d) Because we are entering another cycle of blatant doping in the sport and it's very possible that it won't survive the inevitable fallout. We've been here before we might not be here again after that.
I guess some of the other "5 posters" will have their own reasons.
And finally:
Why do you care so much about why "the 5 people in the clinic" watch cycling and why, obviously annoys you so much that they, we, call out whoever we think is doping? I don't read the Pog thread in the Professional cycling topic, but I don't think any of those 5 posters goes in there to vent about why the Pog fans watch cycling or can't see that the Pog is doping? The clinic is "the only place in the forum where we can discuss topic-related issues" therefore we discuss doping related issues. If this bothers you, it's not our fault.

Edit: Twenty years ago I had pretty much the exact same discussion with a user called "Bobke", an Armstrong fan, in the cyclingforums board. It didn't go well for him in the end. Or Armstrong.