Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Casual cyclist]

To be clear. I do not like Pog much (more than Vingo but less than pretty much everybody else) and I find it extremely unwatchable when he attacks with more than 50k to go. Additionally, if I had to bet, I would say he is probably using prohibited "training" methods. But I am unable to tell you what those are. There is no smoking gun. And I have to be intellectually honest and acknowledge that. Then the question becomes how would one explain such dominance if everything is above the board. That is where exceptional people come into the discussion. There have been such exceptional people and I am leaving the possibility open for Pog to be such an exceptional person.

Are you looking for literal smoke out of Pog's overheated bike? Because, figuratively speaking, it is already hard to see through the smoke. It is that dense. Monster shape the whole season, with multiple easy, literally no sweat performances that make Pantani look like a schoolboy. On any terrain and any style of race, stage or one day, to boot. But, I guess, you have a point: let's keep being intellectually honest.

 

[E_F_]

Are you looking for literal smoke out of Pog's overheated bike? Because, figuratively speaking, it is already hard to see through the smoke. It is that dense. Monster shape the whole season, with multiple easy, literally no sweat performances that make Pantani look like a schoolboy. On any terrain and any style of race, stage or one day, to boot. But, I guess, you have a point: let's keep being intellectually honest.

A lot of smoke, but we're not seeing any gun. It seems very unlikely for the smoke, not to come from a gun. We just don't know what type of gun, all the smoke is coming from. Could be a shot gun, a revolver, another type of gun, I don't know anything about guns.

 

[topt]

Too good in being physically impossible without doping is indeed doping.

show me your references claiming its physically impossible..... thanks

 

[topt]

What is it you find so thrilling about the escapades of this season? That we’re watching history?

exactly

 

[topt]

Honestly, I find it a bit intriguing that you (and the likes of you) care about these hapless "5 posters". You -- according to your own admission -- are with the majority that finds the present flavor of cycling highly watchable and exciting, even if a bit predictable (or maybe even not that). Why worry about this poor incredulous handful of souls? Do you consider yourself a missionary of sorts? Honest question. No sarcasm.

Worry ? i dont worry, i am just debating like I do about politics; i think the question about who considers themselves a missionary should be more directed at people like you. I have no proof but i believe.....

 

[topt]

To your question.. Why do we care:
a) Because it's becoming unwatchable and boring AF. You may enjoy acts of dominance or you may be a Pogie fan in which case you find him winning everything from 100 km out exhilarating but others don't.
b) Because it's an affront to our intelligence and experience. He's blown away records that stood for 20 something years, done by cyclists that were doped to the gills ("generational talents" they were called at the time - and probably were) doing numbers thatwere thought (and are) well beyond the human physiological capacity.
c) Some of us might be perplexed, annoyed or even bemused that everyone seems to be looking the other way. It's a cycling version of the Emperor's clothes parable with drugs (or batteries) instead of clothes. Every time I hear or watch the Eurosport announcers fawning over a 7.0 W/kg 40 minute effort, wondering in faux amazement "how does he do that" I am reminded of this Bill Bur set

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I745Ajeq_B8
only the question is some variation of "how can he do that time after time" (instead of why aren't women players paid as much as men) and the answer "because he is doped to the frigging gills" (sounds more funny if you imagine Burr delivering it)
d) Because we are entering another cycle of blatant doping in the sport and it's very possible that it won't survive the inevitable fallout. We've been here before we might not be here again after that.
I guess some of the other "5 posters" will have their own reasons.
And finally:
Why do you care so much about why "the 5 people in the clinic" watch cycling and why, obviously annoys you so much that they, we, call out whoever we think is doping? I don't read the Pog thread in the Professional cycling topic, but I don't think any of those 5 posters goes in there to vent about why the Pog fans watch cycling or can't see that the Pog is doping? The clinic is "the only place in the forum where we can discuss topic-related issues" therefore we discuss doping related issues. If this bothers you, it's not our fault.

Edit: Twenty years ago I had pretty much the exact same discussion with a user called "Bobke", an Armstrong fan, in the cyclingforums board. It didn't go well for him in the end. Or Armstrong.

I checked your posts, 100% of them made in clinic, you a cycling fan or just here on a mission to expose to us mortals the truth?

 

[Extinction]

I can't believe that someone is even questioning if these performances are being done without doping. It's mindboggling.

 

[topt]

I can't believe that someone is even questioning if these performances are being done without doping. It's mindboggling.

yeah, i am for sure in the minority, right

 

[Froome]

yeah, i am for sure in the minority, right

He is with Gianetti and Matxin, that's enough, remember Ricco, he were with them.

 

[noob]

exactly

History becomes history. Ask Armstrong

 

[topt]

History becomes history. Ask Armstrong

than you better put your Sherlock Holmes hat on and go to work

 

[topt]

He is with Gianetti and Matxin, that's enough, remember Ricco, he were with them.

there isnt a team in pro peloton that has nobody from that era

 

[Gratemans]

there isnt a team in pro peloton that has nobody from that era

And how exactly, pray tell, is that an argument that current riders are clean?

You're probably a Pogacar fan and right now the clinic focusses on him. But that's only because the outlandish results are coming from him right now. I think almost everybody that posts here (with one notable exception) believes Vingegaard and even a lot of others are doped in some way as well.

 

[topt]

And how exactly, pray tell, is that an argument that current riders are clean?

You're probably a Pogacar fan and right now the clinic focusses on him. But that's only because the outlandish results are coming from him right now. I think almost everybody that posts here (with one notable exception) believes Vingegaard and even a lot of others are doped in some way as well.

it doesnt like its not an argument they are doping; every rider from EPO era was in contact with doping and they are now older and work as team staff like in any era of cycling.

 

[solo80k]

They did indeed. It was however "only" superior to the peak EPO performances by a much smaller margin, one that should be in range of what improved (standard) doping and other marginal gains over 30 years could account for. So theoretically at least, if there were no (binding) anti-doping constraints, the speed on Plateau de Beille can "easily" be explained by doping alone. As such, the level of performance alone is not sufficient to infer that motors/gene-doping/etc. must have been in play. Blood doping is extremely potent.

Agreed. But there's another red flag - these notorious long range attacks by Pogacar, sustaining huge wattage for long periods (even hours). We haven't seen many similar successful attempts for years as we see from him alone almost every race now.

So something has changed definitely, even if it's just pharmacological stuff.

 

[E_F_]

I don't like your username @solo80k. It gives me flashbacks.

 

[solo80k]

Next you're gonna tell me tiny improvements to the aerodynamics of the bikes themselves don't actually make a huge difference...

You heard this term before...

MARGINAL GAINS 🫣

 

[E_F_]

You heard this term before...

MARGINAL GAINS 🫣

Infinitesimal gains!

 

[solo80k]

I don't like your username @solo80k. It gives me flashbacks.

This username isn't special nowadays as almost everyone is linking it to our beloved Slovenian Alien.

 

[Netserk]

13 posts in the thread today so far, including 4(!) one-sentence posts in a row. I guess that's one way to effectively reboot the thread.

 

[E_F_]

13 posts in the thread today so far, including 4(!) one-sentence posts in a row. I guess that's one way to effectively reboot the thread.

The first one was two sentences, and the third one technically wasn't even a sentence. You have to get your facts straight when you come after me!

 

[Notarobot]

Meanwhile, mosquitos enhanced with CRISPR are unable to pierce through human skin.

 

[Red Rick]

Plateau de Beille in 1998 was far from the most impressive performance by Pantani. Alpe d'Huez in 1995 (also at the end of a hard stage) is a much better benchmark. By @NaichacaCycling's measure, PdB '24 was ~2.0 % better than AdH '95.

So roughly (and this is quite imprecise to be clear), it'd be equivalent to Pogi beating the record by ~50" instead of shattering it by more than three minutes.

You mean 90's Alpe d'Huez where Pantani was suffocating from 81 motors in front of him?

 

[Barkintheeye]

I´m sorry but have you noticed the progress that Pogacar made this winter? He didn´t just tart cycling, he was already 25 years, 2 times TDF winner, multiple monument winner and dominant no 1 in the world...no way it is a natural progression to improve your level around 10% and beating every other rider by a margin...

It just might be more than those 10% which clearly is strong red flag for a well established WT pro and even more so for one of the absolute top riders. No tinkering with training will ever achieve that

 

[meat puppet]

It just might be more than those 10% which clearly is strong red flag for a well established WT pro and even more so for one of the absolute top riders. No tinkering with training will ever achieve that

Don't say that! Besides undiscussed assertions about fixing problems related to heat and altitude training, the comrade mou shopping list supposedly containing Pogs new training was an interesting thing to parse.

The big picture differed from what San Millan said over the years on two major counts: allegedly under Sola 40/20s on-offs were done more frequently, and Pog switched 15min above threshold intervals to 20-45min around threshold intervals, also done more frequently.

If those changes dont improve a seasoned pro already at an insane level by 10%, I don't know what does.