- Jun 22, 2010
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Pog had plenty of incredible performances under his belt before 2024. It's true that in 2024 he upped his game but claiming a two-time TdF winner (once winning with 5+ minutes) was a donkey-turned-a-racehorse is a bit ridiculous. If anything, 2023 is a negative outlier in terms of performance which interestingly coincides with his injury.
There is absolutely no comparison between him and Lance who went from barely being a GC rider into a guy with most TdF victories of all.
2023 is not really a negative outlier when he also got destroyed by Jonas in 2022, and in 2020 Roglic looked dominating until the final TT. Also in 2021 Jonas dropped him on Ventoux.
2024 is the only Tour where nobody dropped him uphill.
I don't think anyone is claiming that, but that likely wouldn't even raise as many eyebrows as that's something we've seen before. It's his race racehorse to racecar transformation that's unprecedented. That's why people are speculating that something strange is up, since no one has ever been able to achieve that with "traditional means"
All of the signals exist that Pogacar is on a special programme. You would need to be a fool to suggest otherwise but then I'd say the majority of riders are getting assistance, just that UAE have taken it to extremes. It always amuses me to hear former pros like Gilbert complaining because it's not like he is concerned that he is doping, it's simply so that they don't have to sit in a TV studio and try to rationalise and eulogise over the extreme performance level. They are happy enough to go along with the doping just as long as it doesn't exceed an acceptable level.
- May 27, 2022
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David Walsh and Paul Kimmage made careers off trying to take down LA.
- Jun 22, 2010
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Walsh is a hypocrite. Paul Kimmage was the only guy legitimately trying to do that.
I have far more respect for Kimmage.
That’s two journalists out of how many? And not even two.
- Apr 3, 2009
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He was lionized by the press for his Cancer "Awareness" initiatives. Not for actually donating to cancer research but for raising "Awareness". That seemed to involve his mobility via private jet that expensed costs to Livestrong. Not much more. That slid right up to the point that Landis finally went rogue and testified.
That Lance was granted an audience with Oprah to wash his sins still stands as one of the greatest moments in sportswashing. Watch the interview and he could've salvaged some of his humanity by being totally honest. He still hedged...
And yet there are still folks that want to give him back his "victories".
Cookster15
Moderator
- May 14, 2011
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If my recollection is right these guys didn't get any traction on LA until after 2005. Lance had 'won' 5 of his 7 Tours by then.
LA was certainly not "absolutely hammered by the press from day one". That happened later. Armstrong's story unraveled with his comeback. The Opera interview wasn't until 2013.
It's not quite right. Lance won his 7th Tour in 2005.
- Apr 3, 2009
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Nah, he started getting questions immediately, literally the day after Sestrieres. Pointed questions about doping and whether he was clean. Had a press conference eventually to address all the talk.
The press and the sport have basically accepted that no one is going to bust the top guys. Just not good for business. Cycling was the only sport "shooting itself in the foot" in this way.
David Walsh and Pierre Ballester published L.A. Confidentiel in 2004 that led pretty quickly to a court case, so they'd been banging on doors with the story for a while. But I agree, Armstrong had been largely left to his own devices for much of his career. If he'd retired gracefully after five he might have gotten away with it.
But remember how he had to distance himself from Ferrari to placate people. Surely Gianetti's history is not much better, and yet even Walsh says 'oh, you know, I'm sure Tadej is a good boy and subsists on milk and muesli'.
Just imagine if, in a moment of weakness, he had given in to temptation and transfused one of those bags Fuentes was minding for him 'just in case'?
- Apr 10, 2019
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Pogacar's climbing times would be nothing compared to what he could have done, big if indeed...
We also had a UCI President (mr. Pat) actually in business with Lance and his financial fairy, Thom Weisel. The attempts to lure ASO to sell to them when Lance made the comeback displayed very bad conflict of interest; as if the UCI was ever more than a carnival operation for the benefit of major promoters and sponsors. Lance can get some credit for skewing that pay imbalance for riders by demanding more. Not that it was designed to benefit the entire peloton.
I am afraid Pogacar is like Indurain. Never caught but obviously on some sauce but still well regarded. Hopefully something is done about Pogacar as it is ridiculous but I am afraid that won't happen.
Personally I can't take the press and commentators anymore with statements 'best period in cycling ever', 'he is teaching everyone how to ride a bike', 'galacticos' and such non skeptical of fanboy comments.
Energy/power is finite. There is a reason we hardly ever had 100k solos from protagonists. There is a reason there was teamwork and main guy finished it off in the last kilometer. Since power differences were there but small. You couldn't waste it even if you were the best cyclists. Now they just spend energy, energy and energy and still go faster than ever or stay away from a chasing group. It does not make sense.
Personally I can't take the press and commentators anymore with statements 'best period in cycling ever', 'he is teaching everyone how to ride a bike', 'galacticos' and such non skeptical of fanboy comments.
Energy/power is finite. There is a reason we hardly ever had 100k solos from protagonists. There is a reason there was teamwork and main guy finished it off in the last kilometer. Since power differences were there but small. You couldn't waste it even if you were the best cyclists. Now they just spend energy, energy and energy and still go faster than ever or stay away from a chasing group. It does not make sense.
- Apr 14, 2021
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Ok, but what are you expecting from them - to be speculating wildly without any form of direct proof whatsoever? They are not forum members but professionals with much higher standards regarding speculation than us here who are able to inconsequentially (bar annoying the mods) say whatever we feel like.
Not saying: "He is showing them how to ride a bike". Not interviewing Gianetti at the finish and saying how amazing everything is.
Don't give such a manager the light of day, no interviews with him. Instead mention the tainted past of the team. Sponsors will then think twice before paying such types with such a tainted past. Will it do wonders? No, but more likely to do something then currently. The sport regulators will also more likely act if the bottom line gets hit. That's what happened post 2012 (approximately), unfortunately those effects have now completely disappeared.
Interview Pogacar? Of course. Asking him what he thought of the race, blabla. Don't drool over him though.
- Sep 14, 2009
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I suspect that the French fans will be less fans this year if TP is dominating again.
- Sep 14, 2009
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It varied, some were harder than others, but I would not say he was hammered by all the press on Day 1. And this was pretty much Festina times. But I think the fans and the fans coming to defense? That absolutely would have been a thing
- Jul 15, 2023
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The main difference between now from the Armstrong era is that Armstrong basically got the sympathy vote for a fair while because, let’s face it, his story of him overcoming adversity was compelling. And it was mainly true in terms of his illness etc. So he seemed above criticism, above suspicion. Why, he asked, would someone who had gone through a huge life threatening experience with cancer pollute his body with chemicals? It didn’t make sense. Plus his surgeries had made him lighter than before, apparently explaining his much better climbing abilities. Combined, it was enough to sell the story of Lance, not so much a man but a legend in his own time. Everyone wanted to believe in such an amazing and uplifting story. He was much more famous than Pogacar is now, it’s not even close. He probably still is. Pogacar doesn’t have the same aura because he hasn’t had to overcome the same type of adversity. His story isn’t nearly as compelling.
But of course the French media eventually got annoyed with an American dominating their big race. So they started to have another look at Armstrong and his story. At the time, they couldn’t quite make their case stick other than throw very slanted headlines at him. It would be for others such as Walsh to get wider public attention focused on Armstrong. Even then, the public and cycling ecosphere were not keen and had no appetite for the tittle tattle. Like today, the cycling press and the UCI were afraid of the consequences of their poster boy being busted. And the public didn’t like the idea of a cancer survivor being scapegoated or targeted fairly or unfairly. Armstrong therefore escaped pretty much unscathed bar the odd lawsuit until after he had retired for the second time.
The lessons for today would be that Pogacar has the protection not from being a legend, but of a petrostate. And now we have a supine press and media landscape that has even less appetite to investigate the miraculous events that Pogacar and UAE are serving up for our delectation and delight. They don’t want to delve too deeply because, as during Armstrong’s era, they all sup from the bowl Pogacar serves up. And another damaging scandal could wipe out the sport from a commercial point of view. Could hurt media careers. But humans don’t change their nature. While they can be intimidated or bought off, they can also be unpredictable and can get irritated and jealous. Some might also be upstanding and righteous. If UAE and Pogacar are at it, they’ll be running a huge operation to keep a lid on anyone potentially going rogue and blabbing. They possibly feel untouchable, but that may prove to be their undoing.
But of course the French media eventually got annoyed with an American dominating their big race. So they started to have another look at Armstrong and his story. At the time, they couldn’t quite make their case stick other than throw very slanted headlines at him. It would be for others such as Walsh to get wider public attention focused on Armstrong. Even then, the public and cycling ecosphere were not keen and had no appetite for the tittle tattle. Like today, the cycling press and the UCI were afraid of the consequences of their poster boy being busted. And the public didn’t like the idea of a cancer survivor being scapegoated or targeted fairly or unfairly. Armstrong therefore escaped pretty much unscathed bar the odd lawsuit until after he had retired for the second time.
The lessons for today would be that Pogacar has the protection not from being a legend, but of a petrostate. And now we have a supine press and media landscape that has even less appetite to investigate the miraculous events that Pogacar and UAE are serving up for our delectation and delight. They don’t want to delve too deeply because, as during Armstrong’s era, they all sup from the bowl Pogacar serves up. And another damaging scandal could wipe out the sport from a commercial point of view. Could hurt media careers. But humans don’t change their nature. While they can be intimidated or bought off, they can also be unpredictable and can get irritated and jealous. Some might also be upstanding and righteous. If UAE and Pogacar are at it, they’ll be running a huge operation to keep a lid on anyone potentially going rogue and blabbing. They possibly feel untouchable, but that may prove to be their undoing.
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- May 9, 2025
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hmm. armstrong benefitted hugely from an american fan base and press who knew absolutely nothing about dr. ferrari.
it became a bit of a cult (similar to what we are seeing now on another front). one experienced it constantly on various cycling discussion boards.
and then Paul Sherwin and Phil Liggett fawned over him for years when they knew full well what was going on, but they also knew where their bread was buttered.
it became a bit of a cult (similar to what we are seeing now on another front). one experienced it constantly on various cycling discussion boards.
and then Paul Sherwin and Phil Liggett fawned over him for years when they knew full well what was going on, but they also knew where their bread was buttered.
- May 9, 2025
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agreed. not to the extent of Froome or Armstrong.
but there was just an article about his increased spinning (cyclinguptodate?) where the "expert" was suggesting all kinds of justifications for it (smaller cranks and other stuff). it was very reminiscent of the justifications for both Armstrong and Froome. however, a slower but normal cadence when climbing is actually natural and what the body can sustain, and is likely most efficient because of it, while any spinning is the opposite.
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