Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Ulle97]

Right lads, big question here. I'm asking on this forum in particular as I respect people's opinions here and the discussions are always informative.

We've seen some superhuman performances in the last few years and I will state the obvious that none of the top riders who are winning everything right now are clean. Records are being smashed, climbing times obliterated and average speeds on the up.

How do you think these performances are being achieved????

A) Motor Doping?
B) Use of similar doping substances from the past but in greater quantities?
C) New super-drug that the top teams have access to?
D) Better aero and tech?

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Right lads, big question here. I'm asking on this forum in particular as I respect people's opinions here and the discussions are always informative.

We've seen some superhuman performances in the last few years and I will state the obvious that none of the top riders who are winning everything right now are clean. Records are being smashed, climbing times obliterated and average speeds on the up.

How do you think these performances are being achieved????

A) Motor Doping?
B) Use of similar doping substances from the past but in greater quantities?
C) New super-drug that the top teams have access to?
D) Better aero and tech?

Yours is post 9,480 in this thread. Most of the previous 9,479 have been discussing just that.

 

[Ulle97]

Yours is post 9,480 in this thread. Most of the previous 9,479 have been discussing just that.

What's your opinion?

 

[E_F_]

This is pure clickbait.

No it's a joke. It's ragebait - and perhaps an attempt to see if people will "fall for it;" believe that there's anything weird in the clip.

I'd say it's more remarkable for the fact that it's being tweeted at all.

I suppose it is somewhat remarkable that there is enough speculation about motordoping, that people would think to post any and all instances of a wheel spinning merely because that is what they are meant to do - for engagement and as a joke.

 

[Cookster15]

I'd say it's more remarkable for the fact that it's being tweeted at all.

Not remarkable based upon what I have been reading in the Clinic. That someone edits a video to remove the preceding part where Almeida spins the wheel with his hands and then posts that on X says it all. This nonsense isn't helping the motor doping conspiracy theorists, it just makes more people sceptical.

 

[E_F_]

Not remarkable based upon what I have been reading in the Clinic. That someone edits a video to remove the preceding part where Almeida spins the wheel with his hands and then posts that on X says it all. This nonsense isn't helping the motor doping conspiracy theorists, it just makes more people sceptical.

Considering the fact that it's being done by someone who I believe might be even more dismissive of the notion of motor doping, I think that's probably not far from the point of the post. looflol is just copying the Visma-LaB fan Elias, who had a similar ironic post - which people also took seriously. Obviously the whole genre of "wheels spinning by themselves" motor doping "proofs" is terrible, but dear god man, this is literally meant to mock those videos - he's making your point.

(I guess I must be on @Cookster15's ignore-list lmao...)

EDIT: Just now realizing that looflol was reposting someone else lmao. I don't know for sure whether that was sincere or not, I think a joke is probably a little more likely. Anyway sorry about being an ***.


editedit: ahhhh ***. You're all correct - and I'm proven to be even more of an ***hole. 6wattsperkg appears to have been completely sincere (in some form or another) festinaboy even posted the same video; I believe entirely sincerely. The video reposted by Elias also appears to originate with the 6 w/kg guy. Oh dear. I'm in really bad company as a motor doping "theorist" (I'm not a believer! I'm just very agnostic).

 

[Cookster15]

Considering the fact that it's being done by someone who I believe might be even more dismissive of the notion of motor doping, I think that's probably not far from the point of the post. looflol is just copying the Visma-LaB fan Elias, who had a similar ironic post - which people also took seriously. Obviously the whole genre of "wheels spinning by themselves" motor doping "proofs" is terrible, but dear god man, this is literally meant to mock those videos - he's making your point.

(I guess I must be on @Cookster15's ignore-list lmao...)

EDIT: Just now realizing that looflol was reposting someone else lmao. I don't know for sure whether that was sincere or not, I think a joke is probably a little more likely. Anyway sorry about being an ***.

You are not on my ignore list. But thanks for explaining the background.

 

[E_F_]

You are not on my ignore list. But thanks for explaining the background.

Yeah I guessed as much. Sorry about making such a silly baseless assumption!

 

[DONCA]

Sorry guys for posting this Großschartner Click / Ragebait Video. I fell for it.
With all these extraordinary performances we have seen in recent months, i have to admit that a simple explanation would be the most comfortable.

For me, it is simply inexplicable how a top rider can improve so much again within 2 years.
I am still looking for explanations for the 20 minutes at 7.2w/KG or 40 minutes at 7w/kg.

• Tadej Pogačar did 7.36 ᵉW/Kg for 9:05 min on Cote de la Croix Neuve in 2020.
• Tadej Pogačar did 6.97 ᵉW/Kg for 15:22 min on Col d’Eze West in 2023.
• Tadej Pogačar did 6.6 ᵉW/Kg for 24:35 min on Col de Peyresourde in 2020.
• Tadej Pogačar did 6.5 ᵉW/Kg for 35:11 min on Puy de Dome in 2023. He rode 7.00 ᵉW/Kg for 14:50 min on the steep part after doing 6.20 ᵉW/Kg for 20min.
• Tadej Pogačar did 6.98 ᵉW/Kg for 39:50 min on Plateau de Beile in 2024.
• Tadej Pogačar did 6.19 ᵉW/Kg for 51:42 min on Monte Grappa in 2024.
• Tadej Pogačar did 5.88 ᵉW/Kg for 61:15 min on Col de la Loze in 2020.

The self-proclaimed "prophet" Mou explains this with the change of coach, but I don't think even optimising training is enough for those numbers. Especially as I don't believe this narrative either. How can it be that the richest team in the world hired a coach for its best athlete who supposedly knew nothing about heat training or high altitude training? It all sounds like a fairy tale to me and is more of an attempt to make something inhuman look human.

The more inhuman Pogi's performances became, the louder Mou became. Ultimately, he's not trying to explain anything other than these performances. Why? Is someone trying to keep up the clean image?

I'm sure many of you also ride road bikes and know how difficult it is to improve once you've reached a very good level. Every human body has its limits, except Pogi's.

Yes, the material is also getting faster, but is that really enough to ride 7.2w/kg for 20 minutes without showing any signs of fatigue? Is that enough to destroy your competition with seated attacks while everyone else sprints and dies? Is this the explanation for the fact that we suddenly see a rider who can attack as often as he wants and where he wants (all terrains)?

German television has just released a documentary that reports on doping networks and shows us how easy it still is to dope. They talk about "extraterrestrial" performances, alleged death threats and Aicar as a possible "means of choice" in the peloton.

Unsurprisingly, the journey goes to Slovenia, among other places

"Doping Top Secret: In the Slipstream" - Aicar and "extraterrestrials": ARD documentary reignites doping discussion

Cycling insiders have spent years insisting that professional cycling has learned the lessons of its dark past. New research from the ARD doping editorial team concludes differently.

www.sportschau.de

 

[Notarobot]

The downfall of Pogacar will be so sweet to witness.

 

[E_F_]

The downfall of Pogacar will be so sweet to witness.

Vingegaard's palmares will be incredible..!

• Five Tours in a row
• Dauphiné twice
• Tirreno-Adriatico twice

But probably worth keeping in mind that no one actually considers such belated titles to be genuine. I for one don't feel like Andy Schleck ever won the Tour.

 

[SHAD0W93]

The self-proclaimed "prophet" Mou explains this with the change of coach, but I don't think even optimising training is enough for those numbers. Especially as I don't believe this narrative either. How can it be that the richest team in the world hired a coach for its best athlete who supposedly knew nothing about heat training or high altitude training? It all sounds like a fairy tale to me and is more of an attempt to make something inhuman look human.

To be fair, Pogacar had a big problem with the heat and they tried addressing that with pouring water on Pogacar during the stage and I think the ice bath. Following year he’s better, doesn’t need water poured on him during the stage as much if at all, and I think then started the ice vest on the cool down ride. It doesn’t explain his huge jump in performance but heat intolerance is a big issue.

 

[Raest]

To be fair, Pogacar had a big problem with the heat and they tried addressing that with pouring water on Pogacar during the stage and I think the ice bath. Following year he’s better, doesn’t need water poured on him during the stage as much if at all, and I think then started the ice vest on the cool down ride. It doesn’t explain his huge jump in performance but heat intolerance is a big issue.

And he went from being heat intolerant to now not making any difference to him whether it's single digits or high 30s (celcius). He no longer has any weakness, even the slightest. He hasn't cracked in two years of pretty much non-stop racing. That's extraordinary.

 

[SHAD0W93]

And he went from being heat intolerant to now not making any difference to him whether it's single digits or high 30s (celcius). He no longer has any weakness, even the slightest. He hasn't cracked in two years of pretty much non-stop racing. That's extraordinary.

Sine this is the clinic, maybe Pogacar’s genes were manipulated allowing him to use the sun for photosynthesis to gain more energy. Then whenever it rains, that’s just extra hydration he’s getting.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Sine this is the clinic, maybe Pogacar’s genes were manipulated allowing him to use the sun for photosynthesis to gain more energy. Then whenever it rains, that’s just extra hydration he’s getting.

Soon CN forum experts will uncover the ultimate truth: that Pogi is simply an X-man.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Soon CN forum experts will uncover the ultimate truth: that Pogi is simply an X-man.

That would also explain why the UAE management team look like the finalists in a Professor X look-alike contest.

 

[SorelyBoy]

And he went from being heat intolerant to now not making any difference to him whether it's single digits or high 30s (celcius). He no longer has any weakness, even the slightest. He hasn't cracked in two years of pretty much non-stop racing. That's extraordinary.

Which is a rather not only extraordinary but an extremely unlikely state of affairs, no? Unprecedented even. The human body, no matter what amount of drugs or therapy you throw at it, is prone to breaking down under extreme pressure. Illness. Injury. Cycles of lower energy levels in reaction to high amounts of activity. Have a look at footage of the other legends of the sport, even those subsequently found to be heavily juiced. They all suffered, they all looked like they were on the edge. It never looked easy. Pogacar? Endless energy. Effortless attacks, accelerations that can be just flicked on at will with everyone else flailing. Attacks that just go on and on like he’s the cycling Duracell bunny from Hell. Across all race types and terrains. All weather conditions. Crossing the finish line like he’s just nipped down the shops. And where a bad day is a monument podium finish. It’s utter nonsense.

 

[nayr497]

And he went from being heat intolerant to now not making any difference to him whether it's single digits or high 30s (celcius). He no longer has any weakness, even the slightest. He hasn't cracked in two years of pretty much non-stop racing. That's extraordinary.

Hadn't thought about him almost never cracking, I guess I tend to focus on how fast he goes on all parcours in all conditions.

But now that you mention it, never, ever having an off day while racing around the calendar is also very unlikely to happen without some sort of assistance.

Good point!

 

[Cookster15]

I'm sure many of you also ride road bikes and know how difficult it is to improve once you've reached a very good level. Every human body has its limits, except Pogi's.

I have for many years. Road cycling is an endurance sport and in endurance sports it is generally accepted that we reach our highest level between late 20s/early 30s.

As I didn't start doing endurance sport before the age of 20 I can't say how I would have been at 19 or younger. But I learned early that I didn't have the genetics to train my VO2 max to be high enough to be a pro. But almost everyone gets better by 25 compared to 20 - all else being equal. I was much better at maybe 26 than I was when I was just 20 - my strength and endurance was better as was my recovery. I don't know how much of this improvement was natural progression (age) or simply because I had trained my body for more years?

None of this explains Pogacar's stratospheric numbers and particularly his jump between 2023 and 2024 but just saying since you asked.

What does stand out in that list of w/kg is Monte Grappa in 2024. Obviously Pogacar was riding within himself at that Giro which helped him be in top shape for the Tour rather than fade as is the usual case for riders who do the Giro.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Vingegaard's palmares will be incredible..!

• Five Tours in a row
• Dauphiné twice
• Tirreno-Adriatico twice

But probably worth keeping in mind that no one actually considers such belated titles to be genuine. I for one don't feel like Andy Schleck ever won the Tour.

Now imagine the opposite. Vingegaard being caught.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Now imagine the opposite. Vingegaard being caught.

I think that already happened.

 

[SHAD0W93]

There’s no way only one could get popped without the other being positive as well. That goes with MVDP as well if it’s Pogacar that has a positive of anything.

 

[Berniece]

There’s no way only one could get popped without the other being positive as well. That goes with MVDP as well if it’s Pogacar that has a positive of anything.

Difference with MVDP is that he isn’t good at everything and he isn’t good ALL THE TIME. You can see a clear difference between MVDP at Flanders or at LBL. He’s already on a downward trajectory. Pogi on the other hand is almost at 100% all the time, and never tires.

 

[Salvarani]

Difference with MVDP is that he isn’t good at everything and he isn’t good ALL THE TIME. You can see a clear difference between MVDP at Flanders or at LBL. He’s already on a downward trajectory. Pogi on the other hand is almost at 100% all the time, and never tires.

He only rides MTB, CC and road with great success.

He is just not a climber.

Pog is very complete and the best climber.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Difference with MVDP is that he isn’t good at everything and he isn’t good ALL THE TIME. You can see a clear difference between MVDP at Flanders or at LBL. He’s already on a downward trajectory. Pogi on the other hand is almost at 100% all the time, and never tires.

Yep. MVDP can’t do it all like golden balls can. He targets certain times of the year and certain types of races, primarily the classics season because he’s a classics type of rider, not even able to do what Van Aert can do in GC. He then goes missing as he moves into a recuperation block. Even with those races he targets there’s usually a pattern to his form, getting better as his season starts before eventually dropping off towards the end of his race sequence. In other words, he appears to be incredibly talented but ultimately human. Pogacar doesn’t seem to need rest, has little variation to his form through huge blocks of race sequences, doesn't see a parcours which he thinks doesn’t suit him, and can now even compete in sprint finishes. Sorry, that’s just not possible.