Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Tim Cahill]

Mad respect to Juan Sebastian Molano for risking his livelihood and the integrity of an entire sport by using a motorised bike to come 131st in a 2.Pro Tour of Belgium tt. Great commitment to the bit.

There's a theory in Britain that 'Just Stop Oil' are actually funded by the oil industry to discredit attempts to move to different energy sources by association. I feel a similar way about some of the anti-doping twitter accounts.

 

[HashRouge]

Yes that would be very helpful. I couldn´t find a longer version but i find it very strange. He doesn´t hit the pedals in this little sequence and the wheel is turning so fast. Would be good to know if he hit the pedals before or why are his pedals moving?

And what is he doing with his fingers on the toptube? It looks like he is pressing something but i can´t explain what. Or am I the only one who finds his finger movement strange?

Ready for the clinic

I went to go and check the replay from yesterday. If you have Discovery+, you want to select the TNT Sports stream (the online only one with no ads) and go to 58.48 for the full sequence. He carries his bike up onto the start ramp (carrying it by the top tube), and then spins the pedals hard several times, which sets the back wheel going. In the full sequence, there is absolutely nothing suspicious about anything that he does. He's not pressing anything on the top tube, that is simply how he carries the bike up the steps. The sequence that has been shared in X is deliberately edited to make it look dodgy.

I do think we need to be careful when it comes to spreading misinformation. I know that people have their suspicions, but equally, surely we don't want to be saying that there is video evidence of FG using a motor when there isn't?

If anyone is interested as to why I was so confident that the clip wasn't showing the full story - look carefully at how it was edited. Why didn't we see the full sequence? What happened before the wheel started spinning? Secondly, why would UAE have FG using a motor in the Tour de Suisse TT? If they are using motors (I'm not convinced at all), then are they really confident enough to have the whole team using them in any old race? I know some posters think there is a UCI conspiracy, but if you have every rider on your team using motors, that means it's an open secret in your team, which means there's a big risk of other riders or the press finding out. No UCI conspiracy would help UAE if that happened.

 

[SorelyBoy]

This is pure clickbait. Just checked yesterday's stage replay: he lifts the bike by holding it by the top tube and spins the pedals several times with the other hand. He then places that hand on the saddle.

I'd say it's more remarkable for the fact that it's being tweeted at all. Contextually, there's definitely a growing sense that people are no longer necessarily believing what they are being asked to believe. They look and see Pogacar preternaturally accelerating away from the creme de la creme of the peloton on a consistent basis, across all race types, and without any apparent effort. Then a fair few will do a little research and see that that the likes of GCN are analysing it, and Lemond and others have stated openly that it's happening at the highest level. That there are videos. Social media gets going. Eventually someone in the more mainstream media will smell a story.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Mad respect to Juan Sebastian Molano for risking his livelihood and the integrity of an entire sport by using a motorised bike to come 131st in a 2.Pro Tour of Belgium tt. Great commitment to the bit.

There's a theory in Britain that 'Just Stop Oil' are actually funded by the oil industry to discredit attempts to move to different energy sources by association. I feel a similar way about some of the anti-doping twitter accounts.

If it's actually possible to get away with Moto Jojo, which it must be if a rider isn't even trying to hide it before a race, then why not make a recovery ride even easier?

We all know it can be hard to get out of the door at times, so maybe the riders also need that extra push (on a button) to get underway on a Friday afternoon in Belgium.

 

[Ulle97]

Right lads, big question here. I'm asking on this forum in particular as I respect people's opinions here and the discussions are always informative.

We've seen some superhuman performances in the last few years and I will state the obvious that none of the top riders who are winning everything right now are clean. Records are being smashed, climbing times obliterated and average speeds on the up.

How do you think these performances are being achieved????

A) Motor Doping?
B) Use of similar doping substances from the past but in greater quantities?
C) New super-drug that the top teams have access to?
D) Better aero and tech?

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Right lads, big question here. I'm asking on this forum in particular as I respect people's opinions here and the discussions are always informative.

We've seen some superhuman performances in the last few years and I will state the obvious that none of the top riders who are winning everything right now are clean. Records are being smashed, climbing times obliterated and average speeds on the up.

How do you think these performances are being achieved????

A) Motor Doping?
B) Use of similar doping substances from the past but in greater quantities?
C) New super-drug that the top teams have access to?
D) Better aero and tech?

Yours is post 9,480 in this thread. Most of the previous 9,479 have been discussing just that.

 

[Ulle97]

Yours is post 9,480 in this thread. Most of the previous 9,479 have been discussing just that.

What's your opinion?

 

[E_F_]

This is pure clickbait.

No it's a joke. It's ragebait - and perhaps an attempt to see if people will "fall for it;" believe that there's anything weird in the clip.

I'd say it's more remarkable for the fact that it's being tweeted at all.

I suppose it is somewhat remarkable that there is enough speculation about motordoping, that people would think to post any and all instances of a wheel spinning merely because that is what they are meant to do - for engagement and as a joke.

 

[Cookster15]

I'd say it's more remarkable for the fact that it's being tweeted at all.

Not remarkable based upon what I have been reading in the Clinic. That someone edits a video to remove the preceding part where Almeida spins the wheel with his hands and then posts that on X says it all. This nonsense isn't helping the motor doping conspiracy theorists, it just makes more people sceptical.

 

[E_F_]

Not remarkable based upon what I have been reading in the Clinic. That someone edits a video to remove the preceding part where Almeida spins the wheel with his hands and then posts that on X says it all. This nonsense isn't helping the motor doping conspiracy theorists, it just makes more people sceptical.

Considering the fact that it's being done by someone who I believe might be even more dismissive of the notion of motor doping, I think that's probably not far from the point of the post. looflol is just copying the Visma-LaB fan Elias, who had a similar ironic post - which people also took seriously. Obviously the whole genre of "wheels spinning by themselves" motor doping "proofs" is terrible, but dear god man, this is literally meant to mock those videos - he's making your point.

(I guess I must be on @Cookster15's ignore-list lmao...)

EDIT: Just now realizing that looflol was reposting someone else lmao. I don't know for sure whether that was sincere or not, I think a joke is probably a little more likely. Anyway sorry about being an ***.


editedit: ahhhh ***. You're all correct - and I'm proven to be even more of an ***hole. 6wattsperkg appears to have been completely sincere (in some form or another) festinaboy even posted the same video; I believe entirely sincerely. The video reposted by Elias also appears to originate with the 6 w/kg guy. Oh dear. I'm in really bad company as a motor doping "theorist" (I'm not a believer! I'm just very agnostic).

 

[Cookster15]

Considering the fact that it's being done by someone who I believe might be even more dismissive of the notion of motor doping, I think that's probably not far from the point of the post. looflol is just copying the Visma-LaB fan Elias, who had a similar ironic post - which people also took seriously. Obviously the whole genre of "wheels spinning by themselves" motor doping "proofs" is terrible, but dear god man, this is literally meant to mock those videos - he's making your point.

(I guess I must be on @Cookster15's ignore-list lmao...)

EDIT: Just now realizing that looflol was reposting someone else lmao. I don't know for sure whether that was sincere or not, I think a joke is probably a little more likely. Anyway sorry about being an ***.

You are not on my ignore list. But thanks for explaining the background.

 

[E_F_]

You are not on my ignore list. But thanks for explaining the background.

Yeah I guessed as much. Sorry about making such a silly baseless assumption!

 

[DONCA]

Sorry guys for posting this Großschartner Click / Ragebait Video. I fell for it.
With all these extraordinary performances we have seen in recent months, i have to admit that a simple explanation would be the most comfortable.

For me, it is simply inexplicable how a top rider can improve so much again within 2 years.
I am still looking for explanations for the 20 minutes at 7.2w/KG or 40 minutes at 7w/kg.

• Tadej Pogačar did 7.36 ᵉW/Kg for 9:05 min on Cote de la Croix Neuve in 2020.
• Tadej Pogačar did 6.97 ᵉW/Kg for 15:22 min on Col d’Eze West in 2023.
• Tadej Pogačar did 6.6 ᵉW/Kg for 24:35 min on Col de Peyresourde in 2020.
• Tadej Pogačar did 6.5 ᵉW/Kg for 35:11 min on Puy de Dome in 2023. He rode 7.00 ᵉW/Kg for 14:50 min on the steep part after doing 6.20 ᵉW/Kg for 20min.
• Tadej Pogačar did 6.98 ᵉW/Kg for 39:50 min on Plateau de Beile in 2024.
• Tadej Pogačar did 6.19 ᵉW/Kg for 51:42 min on Monte Grappa in 2024.
• Tadej Pogačar did 5.88 ᵉW/Kg for 61:15 min on Col de la Loze in 2020.

The self-proclaimed "prophet" Mou explains this with the change of coach, but I don't think even optimising training is enough for those numbers. Especially as I don't believe this narrative either. How can it be that the richest team in the world hired a coach for its best athlete who supposedly knew nothing about heat training or high altitude training? It all sounds like a fairy tale to me and is more of an attempt to make something inhuman look human.

The more inhuman Pogi's performances became, the louder Mou became. Ultimately, he's not trying to explain anything other than these performances. Why? Is someone trying to keep up the clean image?

I'm sure many of you also ride road bikes and know how difficult it is to improve once you've reached a very good level. Every human body has its limits, except Pogi's.

Yes, the material is also getting faster, but is that really enough to ride 7.2w/kg for 20 minutes without showing any signs of fatigue? Is that enough to destroy your competition with seated attacks while everyone else sprints and dies? Is this the explanation for the fact that we suddenly see a rider who can attack as often as he wants and where he wants (all terrains)?

German television has just released a documentary that reports on doping networks and shows us how easy it still is to dope. They talk about "extraterrestrial" performances, alleged death threats and Aicar as a possible "means of choice" in the peloton.

Unsurprisingly, the journey goes to Slovenia, among other places

"Doping Top Secret: In the Slipstream" - Aicar and "extraterrestrials": ARD documentary reignites doping discussion

Cycling insiders have spent years insisting that professional cycling has learned the lessons of its dark past. New research from the ARD doping editorial team concludes differently.

www.sportschau.de

 

[Notarobot]

The downfall of Pogacar will be so sweet to witness.

 

[E_F_]

The downfall of Pogacar will be so sweet to witness.

Vingegaard's palmares will be incredible..!

• Five Tours in a row
• Dauphiné twice
• Tirreno-Adriatico twice

But probably worth keeping in mind that no one actually considers such belated titles to be genuine. I for one don't feel like Andy Schleck ever won the Tour.

 

[SHAD0W93]

The self-proclaimed "prophet" Mou explains this with the change of coach, but I don't think even optimising training is enough for those numbers. Especially as I don't believe this narrative either. How can it be that the richest team in the world hired a coach for its best athlete who supposedly knew nothing about heat training or high altitude training? It all sounds like a fairy tale to me and is more of an attempt to make something inhuman look human.

To be fair, Pogacar had a big problem with the heat and they tried addressing that with pouring water on Pogacar during the stage and I think the ice bath. Following year he’s better, doesn’t need water poured on him during the stage as much if at all, and I think then started the ice vest on the cool down ride. It doesn’t explain his huge jump in performance but heat intolerance is a big issue.