Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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Come on now. Training, technology, nutrition, talent pool, financial support to mention a few. This is pretty basic across all sports. In cycling I would add indoor training, democratizaion of training knowledge to younger athletes, and a major jump in access to data and structuring of training through powermeters. That the 75 kg climbers in the 90s were beating that is sick.

Not sure how this can explain the speed increase from 2019 though
what is technology? are you talking about aero bikes? it's easy to calculate how much advantage modern bikes could possibly grant on a climb, and it's miniscule.

Nutrition? I said vo2 max. What food can I eat that increases my oxygen consumption? Only legal thing is coffee. OK technically vo2 max has a weight denominator, but if you believe that there's a newly discovered way of eating that makes you lose fat without losing power then I've got a bridge to sell you.

financial support is more likely to lead to doping than not doping.

I do think that talent is identified younger for some of the reasons you've stated. That can expedite development. But I don't think that peak human vo2 max is changed by any of what you've said.
 
What?! The burden of proof is on the one defendant? What are you, IRS? 😁

It’s you who are pointing fingers that should come up with something better than “too good to be true” if you want everyone on board with your take…
The claim he’s clean is more outrageous than the claim he’s not. Neither of us have proof for either. A court of law is different than common sense.
 
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I don't think UAE stopped at Pogacar but let's be business risk-averse: do you think they'd support a team-wide program or merely provide adequate funding so each rider would be culpable for the consequences? My guess is the latter and a wink/nod confirmation to the coaching staff. Too much at stake for them as a sponsor. Not that the UAE contacts care about the indignities of getting caught cheating in government or business.
I don't have answers to these questions, but a 50 million budget should cover all and any costs. Think about what it cost to run a team in the 90s to win the Tour, now consider how exponential budget growth made a Froome a world beater for several years and now look at him. That's even more artificial than when Mr. 60 Riis won his Tour. When Contador said, who we know was doped, it was impossible to win the Tour without a certain budget, you just knew everything had been raised to a higher lever as far as the arms race was concerned.
 
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Since our worldview will never correspond to reality (and even if it did, we wouldn't know that it did) we must embrace lies?

One of the so called "fictions" is not a fiction at all, but an honest attempt to find the truth.

There is no world beyond corruption, and as such a world beyond cynicism is a world in which cynicism and corruption have won - and a world of futility. What is phony beauty, hope, and wonder really worth? Are they worth turning into a donkey? Would I want a microchip in my brain that convinces me, that I'm happy and contented, that I've seen all of the world? No. I wouldn't want to somehow believe that Pogacar really does, what we're being told he does.

The thing is, though, before this year I watched even though it made me very sad that the whole thing was fishy - and therefore wasn't as entertaining as it could have been - because it did still entertain me, and I chose to suspend my disbelief and/or take it for what it was, because it was either that or nothing. Now I prefer nothing. It's not entertaining never mind beautiful.
That's what it is. These "functions" used by the author is an obvious euphemism. It would have been just too blatant, at least yet, to call search for the objective truth "profane and fearful". Yet, if it is just some "fiction" existing alongside the other "fiction" (the one everybody is expected to gravitate to since it's all about "beauty", "wonder", etc.), then why not?

The second bolded if fully correct, of course, and that "beauty" is plain ugly, unless you choose to subscribe to the postmodernist view advertised -- or, very possibly, simply presented and explained -- in this article. Actually upon reading it carefully, I began to think that the author himself is not that fond of that new kind of "beauty". He just tries to inform his readers -- as candidly as he can afford -- of what is coming.

And informing is done very well in the article. He basically says, plain and simple, that pro cycling starting this year is to be considered just a newer version of WWE, with all the consequences. In other words, it is staged and scripted, at least in the main components of the action to be viewed and enjoyed (if you can, of course). This basically answers the main question of this whole thread: what exactly that fellow 'Pogi' is on (besides his bike,:) of course). And the answer is that he is on whatever would allow for most spectacular demonstration of "superhuman strength", which, in this day and age, is, obviously, a version of brushless technology powered by li-ion or lipo. That, of course, is in addition to pedal pushing, doped or not. But the pedal pushing required, as we have witnessed during this season, is not all that intense. Just recall all those searing attacks with subsequent easy breathing and fresh arrivals.

In this latest regard, one can also note also that it is generally pretty easy to pretend to be struggling and suffering when you are just sailing along merrily. Yet, Pog seemingly made no attempts to do so to make it all look more believable and respectful to competitors. The question is why. One possible answer is that "he is so good and clean he has nothing to hide" and thus is willing to strut his stuff in the open. But another possible answer is just that this ease with which he demolishes his opponents -- throwing figurative pies in their auguste clown faces -- is just the intended part of the "superman on a bike" spectacle which happens to the the main theme of this year's show.

P.S. By the way, brilliant piece of comedy a couple of days ago with Pogimon and Matthew of the Pole. Made me laugh for a good while.
 
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YellowSocks

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I’ve mentioned it already, but I think it just did not register sufficiently in most participants’ minds. So, I will try to say it again in a more focused way. “The Guardian” (one of the more prominent British/global media outlets) article by an award-winning sportswriter (Jonathan Liew) really tells any reasonably attentive reader all there is to know about this ‘Pogi miracle’. (Thanks to Rechtschreibfehler for bringing this article to my and everybody else’s attention.)

The article begins with a standard somewhat ornate description of how the WCRR progressed with an emphasis on Pog’s “suicidal” attack and Matty’s and Remmy’s corresponding evaluations of said attack as just that: suicidal. Then the author goes on recalling that equally suicidal (but not really, as we know) 80k solo in Strade earlier this year accompanying that by a standard wordy ‘blah-blah’ about “mind games”, “thespian flourish” and “spidey sense” which sounds a bit like an exercise in using SAT words in sentences.

But all that – along with the next paragraph mentioning the old Eddy’s and the young Remmy ‘s reactions to Pog’s “annus mirabilis”– is just an introduction that can be safely omitted by a reader keen on getting at the true meaning – the real core – of this remarkable article. And there it comes, with a small introduction of its own. The said introduction gently eases the reader into the punchline thereby masquerading the latter just enough to keep the general tone of the article not far from eulogical that seems to be the standard of the moment.

It goes as follows: “The story of cycling is a book that burns its believers on a serial scale, and so most dedicated followers exist in a kind of conditional incredulity: the more unbelievable it becomes, the more desperately we need to believe in it.” Put in simple terms, this just means that miracles like that have long been the norm in pro cycling, and really nothing that extraordinary has just happened. Those “unbelievable” (read: impossible for rational folks to believe in, so that some “desperation” is sorely needed for any belief to happen) rides we witnessed throughout this season should not make anyone all that worked up.

And the punchline itself – ready to meet the duly prepared reader – resides in the next paragraph that just straight-up likens the current version of pro cycling to …pro wrestling, the infamous WWE. The only difference between the two now, according to Liew, lies simply in the mode of the “artifice” development: in pro wrestling the audience submits to said artifice at the outset, and in pro cycling circa 2024, the artifice is “almost assembled piecemeal.” Why the difference, one may wonder. Well, at this point, it is not hard to guess: it is due simply to the relative newness of the pro cycling version of the show, compared to that of the pro wrestling one. The latter became what it is a long time ago. Everything else, according to the punchline paragraph of the article, is pretty much the same.

So, there we have it. Pro cycling now is a version of WWE and should be watched as such. Having said that much – and it is a lot to say, make no mistake – the author then gradually winds it down, again, to avoid straying too far from the required tone and to explain why such WWE-fication of pro cycling might not be such a bad thing after all.

First, he plays down the newness of the situation: “Doubtless there will be accusations and aspersions flung at him, as there have been all year, as they were at the last guy, and the next guy.” Yeah, it is nothing new: it’s been like that before, as the reference to the “last guy” unequivocally implies. Then the explanation of how the new show ought to be viewed is given. To begin with, one must stop trying “to reduce Pogacar to a soup of numbers and chemicals”, i.e. treating him like a traditional competitive athlete who is supposed to win or lose by use of his muscle power alone, preferably not enhanced in illegal ways (even though the latter almost always ends up being too much to ask). That would be, folks, “the narrowest and most boring way of appreciating him; the most boring way of appreciating sport.” Moreover, such “cynicism” is doomed to be “based on a bare minimum of hard facts” (i.e. those non-believing cynics better stop counting on ever obtaining any direct incriminating evidence – the system design is sufficiently tight for that).

And finally comes the conclusion accompanied by another bit of downplaying the main message: “Perhaps the reality is that around every great athlete grow two fictions: an elegant and an inelegant version.” Again, we see a reference to every great athlete (nothing new), but, at the same time, the above sentence starts with the hypothetical “perhaps”, i.e. it could well be that it is really nothing like that, and those “two fictions” is a new phenomenon, a transitional phase of sorts from a traditional sport with elements of a show to a pure show with a sporting theme. The first “fiction” is the traditionalist one, the way of thinking of the “old guard” of fans used to sporting competition on an equal footing. It is labeled “profane and fearful”, but, simply put, it is just misplaced by attempting to view an esthetic-centered show as a pure sporting competition. The second “fiction” is the intended one, pleasant and positive, embodying “a beauty beyond corruption, a hope beyond futility, a wonder beyond cynicism.” In a nutshell, one is expected to suspend any disbelief, sit back, relax and enjoy the show.

P.S. Why was cycling chosen to undergo such a transformation? Well, it is very popular in Europe, it takes place outside and thus can attract large numbers of live viewers, but, perhaps most importantly, it involves some relatively sophisticated technical equipment – the bikes themselves. And with the advent of brushless li-ion (or lipo) technology in the 90’s (and with the bikes’ internal volume growing considerably at the same time with the switch to carbon fiber) the temptation to “enhance” the show must have grown past the critical point.
As well as being cynical, the author of this article totally lacks empathy for the riders. In wrestling, the rules are the same for everyone. That's not the case here. The author has not a think for the cyclists who exhaust themselves in vain in training, not a think for the youngsters who will fall into the hands of unscrupulous crooks, nor for the riders who will either give up or move up a gear.

The issue of riders is coming to the fore these days. In an interview on RTVE, Matxin said that as certain runners avoid running where Pogacar runs, they (UAE) do that too, so that everyone has a chance (how magnanimous...). I can't understand why they've pushed things so far that they have to resort to crisis communication when it would have been so easy to win discreetly. Nobody can be that dumb... Is it possible they're making a mockumentary?

To come back to the article, I don't know whether the author deliberately omitted to mention the riders in order to make them face up to their responsibilities (probably not). If technological doping is involved, I don't think anything will be made public, it's too late. Unless the police get involved, at best things will be discreetly slown down by the UCI. If it was made public, as it doesn't leave any proofs, all races' results would be doubtful (how many riders, in which races, for how many years?), and the whole of cycling would be ridiculed.

On the other hand, riders and supporters have cards in their hands. Even fans who don't want to hear about doping tend to agree that the races in which Pogacar takes part are too predictable. The riders could make a move, do their own race once he's gone, already kilometers ahead. Make it enjoyable, make it telegenic. I can't wait to see them celebrating while crossing the finish line 5 minutes after him. And what if the broadcasts followed this move? Given the financial stakes, it could become a problem for some.

The algorithm is probably fooling me, but I get the impression that more and more people are speaking out. And while I understand that it's difficult to speak out as an individual or as a team (especially as I am convinced being clean is not the norm amongst riders), the collective is powerful. The peloton could ask for proper and systematic controls. Just to remove any doubt about technological doping. And if proper controls are not put in place, decide to ride at 20 km/h eating Haribo. At least it would make the headlines.
 
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I don't have answers to these questions, but a 50 million budget should cover all and any costs. Think about what it cost to run a team in the 90s to win the Tour, now consider how exponential budget growth made a Froome a world beater for several years and now look at him. That's even more artificial than when Mr. 60 Riis won his Tour. When Contador said, who we know was doped, it was impossible to win the Tour without a certain budget, you just knew everything had been raised to a higher lever as far as the arms race was concerned.
Yeah, Senor 60 set the bar pretty high for what could be achieved via shortcuts. UAE has a pretty stacked lineup as do Visma. Matteo spent his much of his Movistar '23 salary on coaching, nutritionist and some camps which probably was chump change compared to Visma and probably $100-$200k. If you took the added stealth and discretion needed to carry out a coordinated program with blood involved you could easily add double that, per rider. That's alot of off-book expenses unless the riders' salaries reflect the expectation they'll be the laundry to pay those bills. Your estimate adding all other expenses seems almost light, tbh.
 
The only qualm I have with this, is that UAE clearly found a way to up the ante this season. Because, crashes not withstanding, Pog simply went balistic. If everything were "normal", Vingegaard, for example, who put up his best numbers at the Tour, should have pushed Pogacar to the limit. Instead the Slovenian just cruised on home. Same at Worlds and Lombardia, it was a brutal masacre. Tolerability is largely subjective and depends on who you find mocking us truly insupportable.
100% true i believe Pogacar went never for 100% in the Tour in 2024 which is scary stuff. PdB when he cross the line he looks fresh while Jonas was dying on the bike
 
I hope some of us don't really believe the Kardashians are beautiful....or naturally look like they do:

"There is no world beyond corruption, and as such a world beyond cynicism is a world in which cynicism and corruption have won - and a world of futility. What is phony beauty, hope, and wonder really worth? Are they worth turning into a donkey? Would I want a microchip in my brain that convinces me, that I'm happy and contented, that I've seen all of the world? No. I wouldn't want to somehow believe that Pogacar really does, what we're being told he does."

"The thing is, though, before this year I watched even though it made me very sad that the whole thing was fishy - and therefore wasn't as entertaining as it could have been - because it did still entertain me, and I chose to suspend my disbelief and/or take it for what it was, because it was either that or nothing. Now I prefer nothing. It's not entertaining never mind beautiful."
 
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Riding faster than in the 90s is hardly shocking, is it? Such is the progress of sports.
Really have to point out the east german athletics times and world records of the 80's, some still stand as of today and if they don't many are still among the best times ever.

So yes performing better than full blown dopers is not easy and certainly not just a matter of time and progress.

And I am fairly sure that athletics has evolved, excellent training regimes, excellent food regimes and so on...
 
Yeah, Senor 60 set the bar pretty high for what could be achieved via shortcuts. UAE has a pretty stacked lineup as do Visma. Matteo spent his much of his Movistar '23 salary on coaching, nutritionist and some camps which probably was chump change compared to Visma and probably $100-$200k. If you took the added stealth and discretion needed to carry out a coordinated program with blood involved you could easily add double that, per rider. That's alot of off-book expenses unless the riders' salaries reflect the expectation they'll be the laundry to pay those bills. Your estimate adding all other expenses seems almost light, tbh.
Tyler Hamilton said that at a certain point (post-Festina Affair I believe) what had been organized and done directly through the teams, now each rider had to take upon himself. The result had to be that if a rider got busted, it could not implicate his team in any way. How many doping cases thereafter left the teams "shocked and appalled" that their riders did things contrary to the sponsors' and management's ethical standards? Of course the teams just kept a hands-off approach, while ensuring through salary increases (which has driven the budget war, as Contador implied) that their riders could afford what needed to be done. The hipocrasy that resulted really has been base and repugnant.
 
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Really have to point out the east german athletics times and world records of the 80's, some still stand as of today and if they don't many are still among the best times ever.

So yes performing better than full blown dopers is not easy and certainly not just a matter of time and progress.

And I am fairly sure that athletics has evolved, excellent training regimes, excellent food regimes and so on...

Of course I agree the speed improvements can’t be explained by food and nutrition. But we can’t compare steroid abuse with blood doping either, except perhaps ethically.

Not all doping gives a similar boost and different people respond differently. For example East Germany became infamous for injecting women with male hormones. So men would not benefit as much which is likely why East German men were not very prominent. But since you raised the subject, below is an example of a current world record still standing by an East German woman (Marita Koch, 400 metres track). Some of the women below Koch are renowned in their own right but still a full second slower!

 
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what is technology? are you talking about aero bikes? it's easy to calculate how much advantage modern bikes could possibly grant on a climb, and it's miniscule.

Nutrition? I said vo2 max. What food can I eat that increases my oxygen consumption? Only legal thing is coffee. OK technically vo2 max has a weight denominator, but if you believe that there's a newly discovered way of eating that makes you lose fat without losing power then I've got a bridge to sell you.

financial support is more likely to lead to doping than not doping.

I do think that talent is identified younger for some of the reasons you've stated. That can expedite development. But I don't think that peak human vo2 max is changed by any of what you've said.
Losing fat without losing power is pretty simple. Just do not eat fat. Hard to adhere to though.
The problem arises when one loses muscle, but if he is not starving himself that should not be a problem either. The only thing is that when you reach 3-5% body fat it is as low as you can go and the weight stays the same.
 
what is technology? are you talking about aero bikes? it's easy to calculate how much advantage modern bikes could possibly grant on a climb, and it's miniscule.

Nutrition
? I said vo2 max. What food can I eat that increases my oxygen consumption? Only legal thing is coffee. OK technically vo2 max has a weight denominator, but if you believe that there's a newly discovered way of eating that makes you lose fat without losing power then I've got a bridge to sell you.

financial support is more likely to lead to doping than not doping.

I do think that talent is identified younger for some of the reasons you've stated. That can expedite development. But I don't think that peak human vo2 max is changed by any of what you've said.
Not just aero bike, even though aero advantage on a 30-40 minute climb could very well be approaching a minute on a climb like PdB where speeds are relatively high.

Gear ratios and better cadence are one thing that IMO contribute a lot to these improvements, then you have much better rolling resistance due to wider tires, etc.

Not to mention road surface. For instance, this year I went to see Col de la Couillole stage where the asphalt was completely new and smooth as a butter. PdB when ridden by Pantani on non-aero bike with gear ratios that required being out of saddle the entire climb on a road surface that may have been way worse than this year in just not directly comparable anymore and all those factors can easily bring you minutes in the end.
 

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French, Italians and Spaniards made up 75% of the riders during the EPO era and a few deeply nationalistic teams from Germany, Belgium, Netherlands and US. Its peak post-colonial hangover if you folks think at the time these freaks were the pinnacles of human performance.

As cycling has become more global, it has become more accessible to people of different nationalities and backgrounds, so performance has improved dramatically.

There is nothing extraordinary about the top riders now, with a higher professional attitude, better training methods, better equipment and nutritional supplements, being able to perform at a similar level as the lesser talented doping freaks of 25 years ago.
 
Not just aero bike, even though aero advantage on a 30-40 minute climb could very well be approaching a minute on a climb like PdB where speeds are relatively high.

Gear ratios and better cadence are one thing that IMO contribute a lot to these improvements, then you have much better rolling resistance due to wider tires, etc.

Not to mention road surface. For instance, this year I went to see Col de la Couillole stage where the asphalt was completely new and smooth as a butter. PdB when ridden by Pantani on non-aero bike with gear ratios that required being out of saddle the entire climb on a road surface that may have been way worse than this year in just not directly comparable anymore and all those factors can easily bring you minutes in the end.
All of this, however, plus doping can account for the margin Tadej gave Pantani, given the Italian was doped to the gills. So the improvements you mentioned, in addition to a very sophisticated doping regime, can only explain the abyss that separates Pantani from Pogacar now. In the absence of doping, no way.
 
French, Italians and Spaniards made up 75% of the riders during the EPO era and a few deeply nationalistic teams from Germany, Belgium, Netherlands and US. Its peak post-colonial hangover if you folks think at the time these freaks were the pinnacles of human performance.

As cycling has become more global, it has become more accessible to people of different nationalities and backgrounds, so performance has improved dramatically.

There is nothing extraordinary about the top riders now, with a higher professional attitude, better training methods, better equipment and nutritional supplements, being able to perform at a similar level as the lesser talented doping freaks of 25 years ago.

It's not that we've seen a huge increase of international Talent that would account for this have we? Also even if it did, it would not account for the jumps in performance we've seen in the new, more international cycling. That a higher level in general is to be expected for sure, but the peak possibilities of human bodies as such, don't get changed by a broader base of talent. It's also a fact that within more international cycling, for a long time they were significantly, like miles, slower than the EPO times and then suddenly the entire reality of performance in cycling took a massive turn upwards. And it's definitely not the case that within this time we suddenly had more, new, global talent available than in the years prior. And no one made a lot of arguments about Bernal being unbelievable, because he wasn't. Meanwhile he is pushing the same, maybe better numbers, than for his Tour win, yet he is nowhere near winning another Tour, let alone another GT, atm.

So your insinuation that this is just hurt pride by people who haven't gotten over their colonial past, seems to stretch things.
 
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French, Italians and Spaniards made up 75% of the riders during the EPO era and a few deeply nationalistic teams from Germany, Belgium, Netherlands and US. Its peak post-colonial hangover if you folks think at the time these freaks were the pinnacles of human performance.

As cycling has become more global, it has become more accessible to people of different nationalities and backgrounds, so performance has improved dramatically.

There is nothing extraordinary about the top riders now, with a higher professional attitude, better training methods, better equipment and nutritional supplements, being able to perform at a similar level as the lesser talented doping freaks of 25 years ago.
I think there's a typo in your handle. "E" is right next to "r".
 
Not just aero bike, even though aero advantage on a 30-40 minute climb could very well be approaching a minute on a climb like PdB where speeds are relatively high.

Gear ratios and better cadence are one thing that IMO contribute a lot to these improvements, then you have much better rolling resistance due to wider tires, etc.

Not to mention road surface. For instance, this year I went to see Col de la Couillole stage where the asphalt was completely new and smooth as a butter. PdB when ridden by Pantani on non-aero bike with gear ratios that required being out of saddle the entire climb on a road surface that may have been way worse than this year in just not directly comparable anymore and all those factors can easily bring you minutes in the end.
All of the technological changes that impact rolling resistance, gears and aero were discussed before but it does not impact climb performance sufficiently to explain the watt/kg efforts by Pogacar in 2024. 90% of the power is needed to overcome gravity, or in energy terms 'potential energy', while doing a steep TdF MTF. The weight of the bike has basically not changed in 20 years so technology is not driving the speeds we see on a MTF unless an electric motor is involved. The discussion was moved to the 'power estimates for the climb stages' thread.
 
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All of the technological changes that impact rolling resistance, gears and aero were discussed before but it does not impact climb performance sufficiently to explain the watt/kg efforts by Pogacar in 2024. 90% of the power is needed to overcome gravity, or in energy terms 'potential energy', while doing a steep TdF MTF. The weight of the bike has basically not changed in 20 years so technology is not driving the speeds we see on a MTF unless an electric motor is involved. The discussion was moved to the 'power estimates for the climb stages' thread.
That's why I emphasised gear ratios and higher cadence so much - a big portion of power, delivered to the pedals, is needed to overcome gravity on a climb, yes, but what I'm talking about is how a body translates the power to the pedals. And here with higher cadence and better rider posture, a huge progress was made.
 
French, Italians and Spaniards made up 75% of the riders during the EPO era and a few deeply nationalistic teams from Germany, Belgium, Netherlands and US. Its peak post-colonial hangover if you folks think at the time these freaks were the pinnacles of human performance.

As cycling has become more global, it has become more accessible to people of different nationalities and backgrounds, so performance has improved dramatically.

There is nothing extraordinary about the top riders now, with a higher professional attitude, better training methods, better equipment and nutritional supplements, being able to perform at a similar level as the lesser talented doping freaks of 25 years ago.
Talent is a constant, only few are selected and the differences among those at the top, can't be stratospherically different, no matter how big the pool is. Nature doesn't work that way. In the fourties the bikes weighed 40 lbs and doping was amphetamines; in the nineties the bikes weighed 13 lbs and the doping was EPO; in 2024 the bikes still weigh 13 lbs. So can the material and performance science, in the absence of doping, account for the margin of improvement (minus the difference between the 40s and the 90s) for what's going on now between Pantani and Pogacar? I think not.
 
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Relative to their population a country like Croatia is one of the best sporting nations around, after the war, and starting with their famous world cup team of 98. Across multiple others sports as well. Slovenia is right next to it and similarly has had great success when it comes to sports across many different ones. Maybe taking note of how well Croatia has done.

People from this region are performing exceptionally and has been for over 30 years. Pretty interesting.
 
That's why I emphasised gear ratios and higher cadence so much - a big portion of power, delivered to the pedals, is needed to overcome gravity on a climb, yes, but what I'm talking about is how a body translates the power to the pedals. And here with higher cadence and better rider posture, a huge progress was made.
The only way higher cadence matters on a real climb, is because you have more power than those with lower cadence in the same gear (or range of gears). High cadence itself means nothing, it's all relative to the gear + the gradient.