Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[meat puppet]

I think kryzsztof's numbers are quite correct in a static setting. Surely Pog will have the so called lower threshold around those levels. Wva once reported his lower threshold around 350w, though he is heavier and carefully emphasized that they only did 20min chunks every hour because of the metabolic demands. So the plausibility of training constantly in that range is dictated by multiple factors.

For one, glycogen expenditure and replenishment is also a constraint. It is rate limited, which means that simply eating more carbs will not do all of the tricks. Riders and their entourage always need to think about how to best spend the glycogen budget.

Now, 320w for an hour costs about 1150kJ. Some of it will be muscle glycogen. It simply needs to be replenished, especially if one is planning to do some intensity the following days. Some of the expenditure can be covered by on the bike nutrition, but not all.

Multiply the expenditure by 4-5hrs a day, and all I can say is bon appetit, because you need to train tomorrow too. 5-6000kJ is no joke to recover from especially on a daily basis. It's basically GT mountain stages or monument level of expenditure, only distributed more evenly because of the constant power design.

 

[PolkaDot1]

Hold onto your hats as things might get even more "extreme" -

https://cycling.today/pogacar-still-has-margin-for-improvement-says-mauro-gianetti/#google_vignette
Tadej Pogacar has not yet reached his physical peak, UAE Emirates team manager Mauro Gianetti says.

“He’s still so young. He’s still 26 and we know that riders can improve physically until at least their thirties. It’s also necessary that he continues to develop, because the competition does that too. I think that’s especially true for guys like Remco Evenepoel, and the young guys who are coming up.”

Well, I honestly think this cannot go much further. Sooner or later they will step on to many toes. I mean, regardless of what the competition is saying publically, they are the first who know what is going on here. So far it might be that speaking your mind will mainly compromise yourself, but at some point it might become the collective interest...

 

[DutchDynamite]

He clearly said he likes going to Calpe doing 5 hours non stop training just at zone 2. Then after a question from Attia, he said he is pushing 320-340 watts. I will go back to see the interview again but I think I'm right

my understanding from the interview is that he rides 320-340 watts in monaco due to the mountainous terrain, because he can recover on the descents. When he is in calpe and rides on the flat, he “only” rides 290 watts because he pedals non-stop there

 

[Nick2413]

I think kryzsztof's numbers are quite correct in a static setting. Surely Pog will have the so called lower threshold around those levels. Wva once reported his lower threshold around 350w, though he is heavier and carefully emphasized that they only did 20min chunks every hour because of the metabolic demands. So the plausibility of training constantly in that range is dictated by multiple factors.

For one, glycogen expenditure and replenishment is also a constraint. It is rate limited, which means that simply eating more carbs will not do all of the tricks. Riders and their entourage always need to think about how to best spend the glycogen budget.

Now, 320w for an hour costs about 1150kJ. Some of it will be muscle glycogen. It simply needs to be replenished, especially if one is planning to do some intensity the following days. Some of the expenditure can be covered by on the bike nutrition, but not all.

Multiply the expenditure by 4-5hrs a day, and all I can say is bon appetit, because you need to train tomorrow too. 5-6000kJ is no joke to recover from especially on a daily basis. It's basically GT mountain stages or monument level of expenditure, only distributed more evenly because of the constant power design.

They’re still eating and burning around that much regardless though, even a few hundred less cals per hour is still huge with the volume they do. And since their weight isn’t perpetually going down they are replacing them all regardless of fat to carb burn ratio changing at different intensities.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I think kryzsztof's numbers are quite correct in a static setting. Surely Pog will have the so called lower threshold around those levels. Wva once reported his lower threshold around 350w, though he is heavier and carefully emphasized that they only did 20min chunks every hour because of the metabolic demands. So the plausibility of training constantly in that range is dictated by multiple factors.

For one, glycogen expenditure and replenishment is also a constraint. It is rate limited, which means that simply eating more carbs will not do all of the tricks. Riders and their entourage always need to think about how to best spend the glycogen budget.

Now, 320w for an hour costs about 1150kJ. Some of it will be muscle glycogen. It simply needs to be replenished, especially if one is planning to do some intensity the following days. Some of the expenditure can be covered by on the bike nutrition, but not all.

Multiply the expenditure by 4-5hrs a day, and all I can say is bon appetit, because you need to train tomorrow too. 5-6000kJ is no joke to recover from especially on a daily basis. It's basically GT mountain stages or monument level of expenditure, only distributed more evenly because of the constant power design.

Yeah, Pog is able to do 5 hours at this level but energy expenditure would probably be too big to sustain it day in day out (and make progress at the same time). I guess that (in terms of volume) he does this kind of efforts (or bigger) only sometimes to simulate harder races (still, they are not constant but instead include Z4 intervals as well as some recovery periods).

 

[Notarobot]

How is it that nobody (journalists, ex-riders) asks questions about Matxin en Gianetti?
If I was a good journalist, I would ask the UCI why they are allowed? They discredited the sport for decades.

 

[Red Rick]

I think kryzsztof's numbers are quite correct in a static setting. Surely Pog will have the so called lower threshold around those levels. Wva once reported his lower threshold around 350w, though he is heavier and carefully emphasized that they only did 20min chunks every hour because of the metabolic demands. So the plausibility of training constantly in that range is dictated by multiple factors.

For one, glycogen expenditure and replenishment is also a constraint. It is rate limited, which means that simply eating more carbs will not do all of the tricks. Riders and their entourage always need to think about how to best spend the glycogen budget.

Now, 320w for an hour costs about 1150kJ. Some of it will be muscle glycogen. It simply needs to be replenished, especially if one is planning to do some intensity the following days. Some of the expenditure can be covered by on the bike nutrition, but not all.

Multiply the expenditure by 4-5hrs a day, and all I can say is bon appetit, because you need to train tomorrow too. 5-6000kJ is no joke to recover from especially on a daily basis. It's basically GT mountain stages or monument level of expenditure, only distributed more evenly because of the constant power design.

Tis actually an interesting thing - zone 2 is what we are told we can maintain for hours and hours, yet it's defined by a lactate level, and then top pro's have such physiology that even at those low lactate levels they burn through fuels too quickly.

 

[vwpe]

No, he is not. You can say that 273747 times everyday, and will still not be true, because he wasn't "so much better than everyone else" in the previous seasons.

If you are not so much better than the others in the previous seasons, and suddendly you are so much better, then something is really wrong, and the history of cycling tell us, this will finish in a bad way for everybody.

Yes he was he just broke his wrist then he wasnt why is it hard to be objective? He beat everyone with ease up untill he broke his wrist?every single race. Your logic is really bent on a certain outcome and not objective.

 

[Peyroteo94]

No, he is not. You can say that 273747 times everyday, and will still not be true, because he wasn't "so much better than everyone else" in the previous seasons.

If you are not so much better than the others in the previous seasons, and suddendly you are so much better, then something is really wrong, and the history of cycling tell us, this will finish in a bad way for everybody.

And you can say 273747 times this will finish in a bad way for everybody and will still not be true. And yes, this season showed he is so much better than others. You may not accept but a lot of riders have the same opinion as me.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I think kryzsztof's numbers are quite correct in a static setting. Surely Pog will have the so called lower threshold around those levels. Wva once reported his lower threshold around 350w, though he is heavier and carefully emphasized that they only did 20min chunks every hour because of the metabolic demands. So the plausibility of training constantly in that range is dictated by multiple factors.

For one, glycogen expenditure and replenishment is also a constraint. It is rate limited, which means that simply eating more carbs will not do all of the tricks. Riders and their entourage always need to think about how to best spend the glycogen budget.

Now, 320w for an hour costs about 1150kJ. Some of it will be muscle glycogen. It simply needs to be replenished, especially if one is planning to do some intensity the following days. Some of the expenditure can be covered by on the bike nutrition, but not all.

Multiply the expenditure by 4-5hrs a day, and all I can say is bon appetit, because you need to train tomorrow too. 5-6000kJ is no joke to recover from especially on a daily basis. It's basically GT mountain stages or monument level of expenditure, only distributed more evenly because of the constant power design.

There is when blood doping is useful.

 

[vwpe]

No, he is not. You can say that 273747 times everyday, and will still not be true, because he wasn't "so much better than everyone else" in the previous seasons.

If you are not so much better than the others in the previous seasons, and suddendly you are so much better, then something is really wrong, and the history of cycling tell us, this will finish in a bad way for everybody.

Pogacar wasnt the best previous seasons? Thats a first. No need to say it even, I think everyone who has watched the races last months can agree what has accured, how he has won I think its a understatement how much better he is than everyone and hardly a debate? That should be a given on the premise of this thread and discsussion around that not if he is better than everyone thats a fact. But if you have watched this and concluded its close thats your opinion.

I wonder what requires to be alot better than everyone else if this isnt it though hehe. I love the objectivity here it gives everything else we can discuss here so much credibility

 

[vwpe]

And you can say 273747 times this will finish in a bad way for everybody and will still not be true. And yes, this season showed he is so much better than others. You may not accept but a lot of riders have the same opinion as me.

alot of riders? Every single one including every SD and 99.99% of people who have watched what we just have watched i think that goes
without saying. Riders are mostly refering pogacar to the best of all time not if he is better than everyone today.. Really low thing to discuss and not based on reality.

Didnt it go from Pogacar would never win a GT again cause he broke his wrist to now the sport is ruined really fast for some? Just funny to me how that can be the case for some few. Facts and objectivity are a precious thing and that also make the topics around wether or not what they use more merrit.

 

[Extinction]

Pogacar wasnt the best previous seasons? Thats a first. No need to say it even, I think everyone who has watched the races last months can agree what has accured, how he has won I think its a understatement how much better he is than everyone and hardly a debate? That should be a given on the premise of this thread and discsussion around that not if he is better than everyone thats a fact. But if you have watched this and concluded its close thats your opinion.

I wonder what requires to be alot better than everyone else if this isnt it though hehe. I love the objectivity here it gives everything else we can discuss here so much credibility

I think you have to consider that he was the best before, except in the Tour the previous two years. He wasn't dropping everybody else a hundred kms out and cruising in after winning Giro and Tour, plus everything else he won, in such devestating fashion until this season. Having broken his wrist explains a less prolific Tour last year, but then to do what he did this season remains a mystery, even by his standards. Under the tutelage of Gianetti-Matxin the entire affair smells afoul.

 

[Froome]

I think you have to consider that he was the best before, except in the Tour the previous two years. He wasn't dropping everybody else a hundred kms out and cruising in after winning Giro and Tour, plus everything else he won, in such devestating fashion until this season. Having broken his wrist explains a less prolific Tour last year, but then to do what he did this season remains a mystery, even by his standards. Under the tutelage of Gianetti-Matxin the entire affair smells afoul.

It's been really hard for some people to understand that. I didn't even said he wasn't the best in the previous years.

What i said is that, the gap in every race wasn't like this, and in some races he lost.

Let's take an example.


He was winning Il Lombardia finish along Mas, now he is winning Il Lombardia with a gap of 3 min and half to the best time trialist in the world.

 

[dr.eve]

And you can say 273747 times this will finish in a bad way for everybody and will still not be true. And yes, this season showed he is so much better than others. You may not accept but a lot of riders have the same opinion as me.

Good for you that a lot of riders share your opinion, why wouldnt they?

And yes Pogi has shown he is much better than the rest, in a league of his own. I just think we do not know at all why he is so much better, and I doubt the unknown part is something Pogi likes us to know. That is just my opinion and I do not care if it is shared or not by a lot of riders.

 

[Raest]

No, he is not. You can say that 273747 times everyday, and will still not be true, because he wasn't "so much better than everyone else" in the previous seasons.

If you are not so much better than the others in the previous seasons, and suddendly you are so much better, then something is really wrong, and the history of cycling tell us, this will finish in a bad way for everybody.

Pogacar wasnt the best previous seasons? Thats a first. No need to say it even, I think everyone who has watched the races last months can agree what has accured, how he has won I think its a understatement how much better he is than everyone and hardly a debate? That should be a given on the premise of this thread and discsussion around that not if he is better than everyone thats a fact. But if you have watched this and concluded its close thats your opinion.

I wonder what requires to be alot better than everyone else if this isnt it though hehe. I love the objectivity here it gives everything else we can discuss here so much credibility

The bolded part is where the rest of your post went wrong. Because the post to which you replied never claimed that he wasn't the best. Merely that he wasn't so much better than everyone else to the point where he now wins every race 80 km out. Riders have been saying since 2020 that Pogacar is the best cyclist. Vingegaard has said as much. I would think most fans have said as much. That's not disputed, which makes the point you are making moot.
However, what many people are saying (and I am sure many riders are saying it too, just not publicly) is how he became so much better than anyone else within 8 months. It's like he is using (an) extra gear (pun intended)

 

[Extinction]

Watched the rather looong interview of Armstrong by Bill Maher. At approx 1:14:30 Armstrong says the drug (EPO) was quote "the rocket fuel that changed not only our sport, but all endurance sports", and further "a drug that is wildly beneficial" both for top end performance and rercovery giving an increase of "10%"; and now we are to believe Teddy is just so much faster on talent alone? With Gianetti-Matxin behind the scenes? Come on.

View: https://youtu.be/rlDKKez4q7o?si=8l09UgWYPxvhnFUq

 

[E_F_]

Watched the rather looong interview of Armstrong by Bill Maher. At approx 1:14:30 Armstrong says the drug (EPO) was quote "the rocket fuel that changed not only our sport, but all endurance sports", and further "a drug that is wildly beneficial" both for top end performance and rercovery giving an increase of "10%"; and now we are to believe Teddy is just so much faster on talent alone? With Gianetti-Matxin behind the scenes? Come on.

View: https://youtu.be/rlDKKez4q7o?si=8l09UgWYPxvhnFUq

This is EPO, probably in the days when they didn't have a test, and I don't think they've found a way to macro-dose again.

 

[Extinction]

This is EPO, probably in the days when they didn't have a test, and I don't think they've found a way to macro-dose again.

The point is that Tadej, and not only him, are now going much faster than those of the "EPO era". It's simply not credible. The drug is too powerful to compensate with performance science clean. I'm sorry. Someone, a little fish naturally, was recently busted for EPO, so it's still circulating. Although I'm sure the likes of UAE are well beyond it.

 

[TrekCyclist]

and further "a drug that is wildly beneficial" both for top end performance and rercovery

The last point is very important. To be able to do extended high intensity training, several times a week.
And, of course, also if one intends not only to peak in July, but to be in top shape from March - October, doing several GTs as well as monuments.

 

[E_F_]

Although I'm sure the likes of UAE are well beyond it.

That was what I meant.

 

[peterfin]

I think think this whole discussion will spread to the media and those with the means to investigate. UAE has opened Pandora's box by being too greedy. Pogacar is their Optimus Prime with the ideal characteristics to win everywhere race but his achilles heel is that he is also too instinctive. He has exposed the cheating by not dosing his efforts.

 

[Red Rick]

One thing I do wonder is if there's peptides that upregulate the formation of mitochondria an other intracellular machinery for fat and carbohydrate metabolization how much effect that's gonna have on capacity to consume oxygen. From my understanding, diffusion goes passively it should be gradient based and therefor increasing use intracullarly you'll consume more oxygen even with the same red blood cell mass.

 

[Nick2413]

One thing I do wonder is if there's peptides that upregulate the formation of mitochondria an other intracellular machinery for fat and carbohydrate metabolization how much effect that's gonna have on capacity to consume oxygen. From my understanding, diffusion goes passively it should be gradient based and therefor increasing use intracullarly you'll consume more oxygen even with the same red blood cell mass.

By the latter part, you mean there is already enough blood but it’s just not getting used because the mitochondria etc is maxed out in the absence of doping?

 

[Red Rick]

By the latter part, you mean there is already enough blood but it’s just not getting used because the mitochondria etc is maxed out in the absence of doping?

If it's an equilibrium state you can either increase oxygen or the blood or use more oxygen in the cells, and gas exchange will improve in both ways.