Do we know who Pogacar's doctor is? The top guys have normally their own medical staff, so anyone know?
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Thank you! BTW I'm quite desperate to hear from the parties involved, in that eventful minute. Has there really been no comment from the UCI? No media coverage of the incident at all? Not one of the many journalists standing in the vicinity overheard any of the argument over the bike? Not even the man who documented Pogacar's seat tube?
troll hunter
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Quality > Quantity
Spain, Italy, France have a total of 3 GT victories in the past 10 years. The last one was 8 years ago. While in the EPO era, these three nations accounted for 70-80 percent of the GT starting lists. Have these countries suddenly forgotten how to ride a bike? Or do they just miss EPO?
It is safe to say that the GT start list at that time was not very competitive. Effectively, performance is also lower because of less talented riders.
I can only count a few riders in the current Top 20 who aren’t from traditional cycling countries. Your argument would maybe make sense if all the sudden the sport were flipped upside down by eastern Africans like in running the last couple decades. That has not happened.
Obviously you didn't read what I wrote very closely. I did not say there was no increase of other talent, I even mentioned Bernal later in the post, the point of which you also choose not to understand.
My point was: does the increase in talent from larger parts of the world account for levels like in the EPO high days. And my guess was, not it doesn't. I also accounted for that you could ignore the old days and still, there would be performances that are suspect. We can go as far as the current riders to look at them and say: well there is something wrong here.
Just look at an EPO era TdF start list or end of year rankings.
So you are really convinced that the best endurance athletes of the EPO era were all born in this small area + US. Okay...
It was the British Dark Ages, when even less talented british riders than in the EPO era magically started winning races under the british (linked) UCI presidency. And that was not really an 'international era'. Even the best/most successful rider (Sagan) of that era had a hard time finding a team to sign him. Just because he wasn't from a 'traditional' cycling nation. QS rejected him for that.
So when do we start the "international" era than, when the Froom years don't count?!? Not even when Bernal won the tour? So it should be easy to demonstrate that there's massive influx in talent from countries not from the area indicated in your post over the last years.
And btw. in no way am I making the point that it's not harder to get into pro cycling when you are not from the traditioal pro cycling countries, or used to be even harder. I'm btw. sure this is still an issue, and often enough cited when it comes to "explaning Pogacars junior results".
Maybe you're a little intoxicated while writing? That's very obviously not what that passage is about. The point is not that Bernal is stronger now than when he was 21. The point is that this won him the Tour back than, and now it's not competitive any more. So within your explanation his "downfall by getting better" needs to be accounted for by the increase in talent base as well. Which means it must have struck very very recently. It just doesn't strike me as very convincing that everybodies and their grandmothers neighbor are producing better numbers than ever because suddenly and all of a sudden, the talent base just made a huuuuuuge leap forward, plus the scouting, plus the achievability of becoming a pro in all sorts of places.
I'd like to see a bit more than a map that shows me what I already knew about where Procycling mostly happend in the last 100 years, to convince me that there's been such a drastic and sudden change in talent base. That's all. I have the feeling you don't even understand what I was arguing about, and resorted straight to yelling and data without showing any relationship whatsoever other than where they came from. That's not helpful for analysis.
I welcome the globalization of cycling, but I don't understand why, given what we know, it should account for the increase in level we've seen alone, or why it should make me uncritical of my favorite rider's performances.
If it's at all a hangover, it's one from having the dizzying experience of having seen this all before.
What does it mean? That Slovenians are naturally more talented/suited for cycling? Does training on the slovenian Alps bestow superior physiological properties to cyclists?
To reverse your question. Are those new talents better at riding their bikes or do they come from countries with less stringent regulation (and enforcement of it) so they are the only ones that don't miss EPO.
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The geographical zone has a high density of competative cyclists, especially 20, 30, 40 years ago, perhaps still greater than anywhere on earth. The pool has grown geographically, but the number of racing cyclists from which to draw talent may not be significantly larger than when the sport was basically a continental phenomenon in the days of Merckx and Hinault.Really, dude?! Is there no talent here apart from French, Italian, Spanish, Belgian, Dutch, German? Okay....
Just look at an EPO era TdF start list or end of year rankings.
So you are really convinced that the best endurance athletes of the EPO era were all born in this small area + US. Okay...
It was the British Dark Ages, when even less talented british riders than in the EPO era magically started winning races under the british (linked) UCI presidency. And that was not really an 'international era'. Even the best/most successful rider (Sagan) of that era had a hard time finding a team to sign him. Just because he wasn't from a 'traditional' cycling nation. QS rejected him for that.
The guy is stronger in his prime than he was at 22. Some fantastic insights.
To the bolded, no and no, they just didn't keep up with budget inflation, got burned by the doping scandals and then saw the financial resourses and therefore edge in the arms race move "off-shore" as they say. Like Google, like altitude camps at Tenerife.
The region and countries of Slovenia/Croatia are great sporting nations. Especially considering their small populations.
Throughout multiple sports.... Slovenia has or has had athletes like Doncic, Oblak, Kopitar, Maze, Majdic, Roglic, Pog, Ceh and many others. The next generation growing up during and after the war has been incredible.
Success, same or to an even more extent, is something that Croatia has had.
Maybe more countries should study how they been able to grow and achieve it. How they, both Slovenia and Croatia, are developing and nurturing athletes throughout so many different sports into some of the best in the world in their respective field. Both team and individual sports.
Come on, guys, even this much concession to the defenders (i.e. those in the "beauty beyond corruption" camp) is totally unnecessary and, in fact, misleading. If the difference between Pantani and Pog riding lies just in "aero" (and tires), there is no chance in hell it can account for the difference in speeds observed this year. I am not even bringing the stark contrast between their on the bike demeanor (Pantani straining and laboring as expected and Pog sailing along with an inane smile on his face, not a drop of sweat showing) into the comparison at the moment. As was pointed out many times in this discussion, the bulk of air resistance of a person on a bike lies in said person posture, i.e. his effective cross section presented to the wind. Now, Pantani was famous for climbing standing in the drops, his back almost parallel to the ground. The 'Pogi' fellow, on the other hand, is a veritable "coal miner" on the bike charging up climbs swiftly and effortlessly with his spine at 45 degrees or so to horizontal, thereby creating the proverbial "barn door" aerodynamics of pickup trucks. What I am trying to say here is that the folks still in the "profane and fearful" camp (i.e. the ones old-fashioned enough to still be interested in the one and only objective truth) should refrain from being easily swayed by these cheap "aero" related "explanations."
P.S. Speaking of "modern tires" (an excuse mentioned by the beauty lovers earlier), I became curious and made some quick estimations, using that rolling resistance dataset. Recalling that the numbers there are obtained at the speed of 28.8 km/h and load of 42.5 kg per tire and and making the corresponding adjustments, I obtained the total difference in rolling resistance in the 5-6 W range between top of the line tubulars and tubeless. That is no more than 1.5% of the total power output on such climbs. Since the overall power required to maintain speed is proportional to the power of speed that's between 2 and 3, this much power difference would result in speed increase well in sub 1% range which on 40min climb amounts to about 20s at best.
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I don't think its helpful to point at Slovenia - or doping cases in the traditional cycling nations. I too were amazed at Slovenia's rise from obscurity since Primoz Roglic got the ball rolling. But perhaps we can argue why this is at all relevant? Google moved offshore because of tax reasons. Got zero equivalence to Pogacar or Giannetti (Swiss).
This might be worth a read:
www.rouleur.cc
This might be worth a read:
Inside Slovenia’s astonishing rise to the very top of cycling
Slovenian riders are dominating all aspects of professional cycling. In 2018, we went to find out how a nation the size of Wales became cycling’s smallest superpower
www.rouleur.cc
troll hunter
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What is your 'top 20'? 6 French, 6 Italian, 6 Spanish, 1 Belgian and 1 Dutch rider or what?
So what's your point then? Those guys were the pinnacle of human evolution in the age of EPO?
Why would be Sky era 'international'. All that happened was that the EPO guys were replaced by even dodgier brits.
Bernal is a good talent, but is it hard for you to believe that over the years even greater talents have come along who can beat the likes of Kruijswijk, Buchmann, Alaphilippe by an even bigger margin?
Why not check the statistics yourself if you are so curious about the data?! Random EPO era 1999 active WT riders nationality - https://www.procyclingstats.com/statistics.php?season=1999&level=1&sekse=1&filter=Filter&p=nations
In 1999, more than 60% of the riders were ITA, FRA, ESP.
85% are ITA, FRA, ESP, BEL, NED, GER, SWI, USA
This year - https://www.procyclingstats.com/statistics.php?season=2024&level=1&sekse=1&filter=Filter&p=nations
ITA, FRA, ESP = 30%
ITA, FRA, ESP, BEL, NED, GER, SWI, USA = 60%
I think this is a massive change in 25 years + the emerging nations that are adding more and more riders to WT teams have a much better quality/quantity ratio than FRA,ESP,ITA.
The last time I checked, these countries were dominated with EPO: ITA, FRA, ESP, BEL, NED, GER, SWI, USA
Something tells me we won't hear anything about it from any of the "official" channels.
Found this. He switched from a doctor with a very dodgy past as his coach to Javier Sola as his "trainer" for 2024.
UAE insider leaks informations about Pogacar's training and conflicts inside the team | Cycling Today
A mysterious account named "mou" has leaked on a cycling forum in March training information about Tadej Pogacar that were really close to what the Slovenian produced as power in stages 14 and 15 of this Tour de France.
cycling.today
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So what's your point? Training in the crisp , Slovenian, mountainous air turns you into an EPO beating phenom. Must be all that CO.
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You gotta provide the statistics, because you are making the claim. I don't because I don't necessarily have the time to provide what you left out but should have provided.
The other bolded: you are not following your own argument very well here I fear. Of course it's a big change over 25+ years, but the timefrace in question to explain the changes we are "complaining" about is much shorter. Also you should be wary that WT Level, which pcs spits out for every season, with the WT that exists since 2011. I also was not necessarily claiming that Sky era was international, but it lasted untill 5 years ago, so we are talking about a developement of 5 years and not 25. That's by following your own argument that the influx in talent through the globalization of cycling explains the changes. So the drastic change from 2020 onwards needs to be explained by such a change in that time frame. If you do that, you'll see that the change isn't nearly as drastic between 2019 and 2024. The number of active riders from ITA, FRA, ESP, BEL, NED increases from 190 to 277 even. The number of riders from outside these nations in the Top 20 decreased from 228 to 210. So to me, if I counted correctly, the exact opposite has occurred and the main land (of cycling) is more dominant than when Bernal won.
But might I ask: you do know what we are actually talking about here, you're not just making an accusation based on an ad hoc theory?
That lower cadence might not be much help in a multiple stage race, though. Realistically the higher-cadence climbers have both a style and fitness level specific to them. It's not for every rider as I think you mean to suggest. It's just supposed to be a more sustainable approach for multiple stages to minimize muscle fatigue.
Never mind his point - what’s yours? That there’s a certain doping mechanism only available in Slovenia and two competitors from different teams are able to get it because they live close together? And all the big league countries you were talking about are unable to penetrate this mystery which only Slovenians are able to do? Ever heard of the concept of coincidence?
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Cadence from my experience falls into "style". There are those who fare well at a certain cadence/rhythm that are more efficient than Beethoven versus Bach. It's an art, you see? But who is superior Beethoven or Bach, at this level?
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Apart from this, let's analyze things. Pog was hurt last year and still got second. Vingo was hurt this year and still got second. Even score, evidently. The difference, however, is that this year Vingo put up his best numbers, despite the crash, so we should imagine that a crashless Pog might have closed the gap from last year (even more if Vingo's numbers can be believed this year), but not dominated him beyond all probability. Pog gave, in other words, the best Vingegaard the deficit accrued last year plus dividends. And I'm playing monopoly, a thoroughly repugnant game.
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Agreed 100% In TTs it was spin into the wind and crush big gears on the tailwind leg; mindful of keeping a somewhat proximate cadence.
Climbing....I hate spinning and like the occasional bigger gear boost out of the saddle; then spin awhile. I couldn't imitate a Roglic cadence unless it was super steep and had the gearing for it. Then it would be a short imitation at best. Old habits die hard.
And yet the countries who are best at the Olympics where success is measure per capita or adjusted using probability models are as follows.....Croatia nor Slovenia are not on these lists ? And yet we should study them ???
Which countries exceeded expectations?
Use the dropdown to compare gold and total medal counts to other metrics, including the probability model ('goldilocks model') designed by academics to take differences in population into account. Last updated 12 August 2024
Ranking: Medals per 100bn GDPMedals per 10m peopleProbability modelExpected medalsWeighted medals
| Country ▼ | Gold medals ▼ | Total medals ▼ | Probability model ▼ | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Australia | 18 | 53 | 41.648 | |
| France | 16 | 64 | 32.659 | |
| Great Britain | 14 | 65 | 32.415 | |
| Netherlands | 15 | 34 | 26.403 | |
| United States | 40 | 126 | 22.682 |
The nations exceeding expectations based on capita
Image caption,
The USA finished 47th when measuring medals by a size of population measure
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Talking about naivety, I find the religious belief in doping being the one and only answer to anything exceptional in cycling quite naive. I get that it's a simple, black-and-white answer to things we don't understand, but from perusing this and other forums looking for any kind of hard evidence or indications of wrongdoing, it's quite striking how bare the cupboard is currently. Rather than a sign of superior critical thinking skills, the unflinching conviction about large-scale doping of so many cycling fans is a pure leap of faith.
Now, I hold an equally steadfast belief in the contrary. If doping were as endemic as some seem to believe, I find it quite incredible that no one in or around the sport has blown the whistle about it. Doping is a nice catch-all that we all hate. But that also goes for the many people engaged with the sport whose livelihoods are at stake. Don't try to tell me that the entire professional circuit, including journalists and all the passionate volunteers and fans of the sport, would accept cheating. If some major scheme involves one or more teams, new methods, and such, we will have some sort of sniff of it by now. Yet, at the moment, the only argument for doping seems to be that the performances are too good, without any science backing the claims about a hard limit to human performance on the bike or that we're surpassing it.
When it comes to a scheme by an individual team (i.e. UAE), the same thing goes. They have the most talented rider, and they can financially dope to basically buy half his rivals, all without the risks of doping. I don't understand why they would opt for a complex extra doping scheme. Riders talk, staff talk, they change teams, and in the end, this stuff always comes out somehow. The weight of risk and reward seems deeply skewed in the wrong direction, and as sports washing goes, it seems like exactly the thing you would not want your name on. That does not exclude riders doing stuff, but it does not seem plausible there's a large operation behind it.
A specific UAE scheme would also not explain the overall rising speed in the peloton, only specifically their dominance. Like in other sports, cycling is extremely unequal economically, and like in other sports, the distance between the best and the rest is increasing. This means that, realistically, UAE only has a couple of real competitors. JV is close to them but has had a disastrous season. Ineos is giving up. Who else would compete? I think the top teams buying up all the talent is a better explanation for their dominance this season, as with JV's dominance last year.
As for the man himself, Pog is obviously an outlier even if we accept rising speeds or UAE financial muscles. However, across sports, there are always outliers. It does not seem unreasonable to suggest that's the case also in cycling, where until recently, the talent pool was basically Belgium, some French and Italian communes, + weird loners around the world. For one, I find Messi's imperious talent for football, far beyond any of the 100s of millions of global fanatics, far more impressive. As for his progression, he's been the best cyclist in the world since he was 21. If you had told me in 2020, he would be unbeatable at 26, and it would seem completely within the realms of possibility as a career progression. Not to speak of the well-known improvements in all aspects of his preparation. It seems that the kid who won the Tour was far from the finished product, and far from the well-groomed professional. Which is also a normal thing for a young guy in a not-optimised team. It was also commonly known that JV was miles ahead of UAE some years ago in terms of its setup and professionalism. It seems Pog won the tour twice based on pure raw talent, which is arguably even more incredible than the current iteration as a fully developed steed in a well-oiled machine of a team.
Ultimately, the same argument applies to him as to the team: I'm sure he looks for any possible way to improve, but he was already at the top, already the best rider with the biggest salary for the best and richest team. Why would he do something to risk all that when he had room for improvement to arrive at JV's level of preparation even without risking it by hatching up an illegal scheme?
When it comes down to it, as there's not the slightest proof that something is largely wrong in the peloton, a belief in large-scale doping is simply a personal leap of faith. You may choose to believe what the riders are doing is impossible, although I have yet to see anyone give any weighty arguments for why it would be beyond human capabilities. You may also believe that the level difference between Pog and the rest is impossible, but again, sport is full of outliers, and I don't think you would find many people claiming Pog is the most dominant sportsperson ever.
I understand why people believe Pog/Uae/Peloton are doping. Of course, it's within the realm of possibility. But we should also accept that it's just as possible that they are clean. Not doing either is plainly naive and grossly exaggerates the extent of our knowledge of the situation. Of course, it's a personal choice to decide which myth to believe in. For my own part, I prefer enjoying the show, admiring the athletes, and believing that it will all come out, one way or the other. It's not naive; it's just accepting the limits of our knowledge and accepting to live with that uncertainty as a part of life.
However, I do keep a very close eye on this thread, as I trust the more misanthropic contributors on this forum will quickly alert me if more substantial indications of wrongdoing rise to the surface. Thank you all for wading through the vale of performance-enhanced tears so that the rest of us can experience the era of the cycling Messias in blissful ignorance!
PS: Wow, talking about chemically enhanced performances, that cup of coffee must have increased my rant length by at least 20%. I trust the Forum Antidoping Agency will take action.
You accuse cycling fans who believe in doping as lacking critical thinking ( in a very condescending manner btw) and yet you say "For my own part, I prefer enjoying the show, admiring the athletes, and believing that it will all come out, one way or the other. It's not naive; it's just accepting the limits of our knowledge and accepting to live with that uncertainty as a part of life.". How is this any better in critical thinking ? Who says it will come out well in the end or who wants to admire a show ? Critical thinking is believing that doping is as big a possibility as non doping which your posts leans very definitely away from and thus has the approval of Pogacar fans on here.
"Now, I hold an equally steadfast belief in the contrary. If doping were as endemic as some seem to believe, I find it quite incredible that no one in or around the sport has blown the whistle about it" It would seem you know nothing of the history of cycling , over many decades of the sport. How many years did Armstrong dominate without whistle blowers or other GT winners
. "When it comes down to it, as there's not the slightest proof that something is largely wrong in the peloton, a belief in large-scale doping is simply a personal leap of faith" There is where you are wrong. Absence of evidence is not proof of absence of wrong doing and thus should not be dismissed as a leap of faith, . Many contributors have pointed to the history of the sport where wrong doing was covered up for years and years , where omerta existed and where behind the scenes even today there are many reasons including the omerta, patronage and science of testing and control lagging behind as to why doping is a valid possibility , that should be explored without ridicule .What have people to guide their 'lack of believe" in sudden leaps in performance ( Pog from 2023 to 2024 for one ) other than abnormal performance and disquiet on comparisons with other riders.
" However, I do keep a very close eye on this thread, as I trust the more misanthropic contributors on this forum will quickly alert me if more substantial indications of wrongdoing rise to the surface. Thank you all for wading through the vale of performance-enhanced tears so that the rest of us can experience the era of the cycling Messias in blissful ignorance!" What is misanthropic about believing in doping which has given the history of cycling , a greater probability of existing in the peloton at least for some riders than not existing . Of course your efforts to balance your arguments with at least a nod to the possibility of doping rings hollow if you are enjoying cycling Messiahs in blissful ignorance and you feel the need to silence the doubters with ridicule . You views are very clear through the waffle you don't harbour the belief for one minute that Pog may be using enhancing methods as it doesn't suit your needs for him to be a clean champion. Pluuuuuuusssseee hold up the looking glass .
7 watts per kg at 100 rpm is the same as 7 watts per kg at 80 rpm.
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