Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Cookster15]

Not sure actually. Reducing muscle mass also reduces sustainable power. Unless Greg was indeed doing a lot of excercises for pure muscle strength and mass, which is atypical for GC climbers. Generally I can't see much difference in climbers build now vs the past (except a few powerful bulls from the EPO era).

I think what Lemond said makes perfect sense - I agree with @Unchained. He also makes a good point about the recent move to narrow bars which are more aero and save watts. Heavier arms and shoulders don't help win grand tours. And I have noticed a difference not just in climbers build but the build of most riders in the peloton.

Reducing muscle mass in the legs reduces sustainable power. But that isn't what has occurred. Look at Vingo, he clearly has thick legs but an emaciated body. With Pog we did notice he seemed to lose upper body weight for 2024 compared to 2022 and 2023.

Another example: A few years back it was noticed Richie Porte became more gaunt looking, Porte wasn't a big rider but obviously Porte lost upper body mass - and he finally secured a podium at the 2020 Tour with a great ride in the stage 20 TT. on LPdBF. Porte's well known crack didn't happen.

Not sure if its the right word but the less "nonfunctional" weight to move you on the bike the better. Functional weight are the muscles used to develop power for climbing and TT - sustainable power. Unnecessary muscle detracts from watts / kg just the same as excess fat.. And grand tours are three weeks. Every nonfunctional gram you have to carry around for three weeks adds to cumulative fatigue and detracts from recovery.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I think what Lemond said makes perfect sense - I agree with @Unchained. He also makes a good point about the recent move to narrow bars which are more aero and save watts. Heavier arms and shoulders don't help win grand tours. And I have noticed a difference not just in climbers build but the build of most riders in the peloton.

Reducing muscle mass in the legs reduces sustainable power. But that isn't what has occurred. Look at Vingo, he clearly has thick legs but an emaciated body. With Pog we did notice he seemed to lose upper body weight for 2024 compared to 2022 and 2023.

Another example: A few years back it was noticed Richie Porte became more gaunt looking, Porte wasn't a big rider but obviously Porte lost upper body mass - and he finally secured a podium at the 2020 Tour with a great ride in the stage 20 TT. on LPdBF. Porte's well known crack didn't happen.

Not sure if its the right word but the less "nonfunctional" weight to move you on the bike the better. Functional weight are the muscles used to develop power for climbing and TT - sustainable power. Unnecessary muscle detracts from watts / kg just the same as excess fat.. And grand tours are three weeks. Every nonfunctional gram you have to carry around for three weeks adds to cumulative fatigue and detracts from recovery.

Upper body muscles? Vingo is very thin but I see guys like Contador, Froome and they were thinner than Pogacar. Yet, none of them had Pog's w/kg. I see zero evidence that top climbers from the past had more upper body mass than Pog.

 

[Cookster15]

Upper body muscles? Vingo is very thin but I see guys like Contador, Froome and they were thinner than Pogacar. Yet, none of them had Pog's w/kg.

In terms of grand tour performance reducing upper body muscle mass is perfect for grand tour performance - and it doesn't reduce sustainable power or watts / kg.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

In terms of grand tour performance reducing upper body muscle mass is perfect for grand tour performance - and it doesn't reduce sustainable power or watts / kg.

Again, I see no indication that Pog is thinner in his upper body than past climbers. He's about 65-66 kilos, not even that light for his height. And his legs are not disproportionately big vs upper body.

 

[Extinction]

I think what Lemond said makes perfect sense - I agree with @Unchained. He also makes a good point about the recent move to narrow bars which are more aero and save watts. Heavier arms and shoulders don't help win grand tours. And I have noticed a difference not just in climbers build but the build of most riders in the peloton.

Reducing muscle mass in the legs reduces sustainable power. But that isn't what has occurred. Look at Vingo, he clearly has thick legs but an emaciated body. With Pog we did notice he seemed to lose upper body weight for 2024 compared to 2022 and 2023.

Another example: A few years back it was noticed Richie Porte became more gaunt looking, Porte wasn't a big rider but obviously Porte lost upper body mass - and he finally secured a podium at the 2020 Tour with a great ride in the stage 20 TT. on LPdBF. Porte's well known crack didn't happen.

Not sure if its the right word but the less "nonfunctional" weight to move you on the bike the better. Functional weight are the muscles used to develop power for climbing and TT - sustainable power. Unnecessary muscle detracts from watts / kg just the same as excess fat.. And grand tours are three weeks. Every nonfunctional gram you have to carry around for three weeks adds to cumulative fatigue and detracts from recovery.

Somehow, they have figured out how to reduce upper body mass, while not sacrificing power on the peddles. Done naturally makes little sense, however. You can't be Greg's height and ride at Pantani's weight and not lose power. And if it's possible, it is only so through some alchemy. And then Greg says lower weight increases power, which is false. Lower weight only increases power to weight ration. In fact, at 58-60 kg one who would have ridden at Greg's weight in the 80s should see a drop in watts, not an increas.

 

[Cookster15]

Somehow, they have figured out how to reduce upper body mass, while not sacrificing power on the peddles. Done naturally makes little sense, however. You can't be Greg's height and ride at Pantani's weight and not lose power. And if it's possible, it is only so through some alchemy. And then Greg says lower weight increases power, which is false. Lower weight only increases power to weight ration. In fact, at 58-60 kg one who would have ridden at Greg's weight in the 80s should see a drop in watts, not an increas.

But you can lose weight in the upper body and retain muscle mass in the legs. I don't think its alchemy.

Edit: Upper body muscle does not assist sustained watts per kilo for cycling. You just need enough for a strong core and to prevent fatigue in arms holding the bars. That doesn't require Schwarzenegger arms.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Castration the only move left in the hunt for marginal gains, maybe an appendix?

I've been at about 7% and I can't tell you how crap it feels day to day, no idea how these guys are riding grand tours like this, no wonder so many are taking stuff to help them cope with it.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

But you can lose weight in the upper body and retain muscle mass in the legs. I don't think its alchemy.

Edit: Upper body muscle does not assist sustained watts per kilo for cycling. You just need enough for a strong core and to prevent fatigue in arms holding the bars. That doesn't require Schwarzenegger arms.

What you say is pretty obvious and some pics of past climbers show how super thin they are in upper body. Look at Froome, Rasmussen or Contador. It's not like they discovered it now. Actually Pogacar isn't even that good example of this and his weight confirms it. Vingegaard or even Roglic are better suited to your description and still they lost to him this year in w/kg department.

 

[Cookster15]

What you say is pretty obvious and some pics of past climbers show how super thin they are in upper body. Look at Froome, Rasmussen or Contador. It's not like they discovered it now. Actually Pogacar isn't even that good example of this and his weight confirms it. Vingegaard or even Roglic are better suited to your description and still they lost to him this year in w/kg department.

Riders and teams post their weights but their true weight isn’t known. We can only go from visual appearances. Can we find photos of Pog in say 2023 and this year to make a better comparison? I do recall reading reports that he lost weight for 2024 but don’t know if that was validated?

 

[Extinction]

But you can lose weight in the upper body and retain muscle mass in the legs. I don't think its alchemy.

Edit: Upper body muscle does not assist sustained watts per kilo for cycling. You just need enough for a strong core and to prevent fatigue in arms holding the bars. That doesn't require Schwarzenegger arms.

Right, but how do you lose 10 kg while increasing wattage? A normal decrease in weight is accompanied by an increase in power to weight ratio (and the specialists then analyze how much gain is obtained, benefits form losses). But, you don't decrease weight AND increase power (talking about pros already at a physiologically low body fat percentage), as has seemingly been done on a long endurance basis. So at say 60 kg there should not be an increase in watts to 420 or whatever it was, to riding at 68 kg at 390. But that is what has miraculously happened.

 

[Extinction]

But you can lose weight in the upper body and retain muscle mass in the legs. I don't think its alchemy.

Edit: Upper body muscle does not assist sustained watts per kilo for cycling. You just need enough for a strong core and to prevent fatigue in arms holding the bars. That doesn't require Schwarzenegger arms.

But they were already at 3 % body fat, you can't go lower than that and not be unwell.

 

[Cookster15]

Right, but how do you lose 10 kg while increasing wattage? A normal decrease in weight is accompanied by an increase in power to weight ratio (and the specialists analyze how much gain is obtained). But, you don't decrease weight AND increase power (talking about pros already at a physiologically low body fat percentage), as has seemingly been done on a long endurance basis. So at say 60 kg there should not be an increase in watts to 420 or whatever it was, to riding at 68 kg at 390. But that is what has miraculously happened.

10Kg is comparing Lemonds day to now. What Lemond says I agree with. But it isn’t really a new trend. Cadel Evans complained back in 2012 about skinny climbers who could TT. Obviously a reference to Wiggins and Froome but still relevant to what we have seen since. I find Lemond’s outspokenness refreshing. And despite attempts to discredit him I think he has more credibility than most.

But they were already at 3 % body fat, you can't go lower than that and not be unwell.

We already addressed that. Not fat but upper body muscle mass - just like Lemond suggested.

 

[Divergence]

In general, it is not that hard to not have big upper body muscle mass if you do not do specific exercises for that. There are some people, e.g., Pog who I believe has an unbelievable physiology for any kind of sports, who can easily convert any excess energy into muscle mass and that is why Pog looks a bit more muscular that say Vingo or Rog. Others need to be careful with their fat intake to not increase the body fat%, e.g., I believe Remco.
At the end of the day the recipe is do not eat fat and do not do upper body strength training (along with everything else that goes into being a good cyclist).

 

[peterfin]

In general, it is not that hard to not have big upper body muscle mass if you do not do specific exercises for that. There are some people, e.g., Pog who I believe has an unbelievable physiology for any kind of sports, who can easily convert any excess energy into muscle mass and that is why Pog looks a bit more muscular that say Vingo or Rog. Others need to be careful with their fat intake to not increase the body fat%, e.g., I believe Remco.
At the end of the day the recipe is do not eat fat and do not do upper body strength training (along with everything else that goes into being a good cyclist).

Remco also easily gains upper body muscle mass. It may be a bigger issue for him than his fat%.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Remco also easily gains upper body muscle mass. It may be a bigger issue for him than his fat%.

Remco wants to impress Oumi and other girls when on a beach. This is probably more important than being competitive against the mutants. I mean, there's life besides cycling!

 

[Ripper]

I've been at about 7% and I can't tell you how crap it feels day to day, no idea how these guys are riding grand tours like this, no wonder so many are taking stuff to help them cope with it.

Agree, it is unpleasant (and unpleasant for those around me). I remember Wiggo who was wigging out half the time when he was in Tour winning shape! And I am quite sure they were taking medications to manage weight as well as mood.

Greg is a bit too simple in what he is stating. He might have been able to manage some of the watts, but not the w/kg, nor the day in/day out intensity. In other words, if you add the other metrics in, he would not be close to competing.

I actually find a number of the former pros I still chat with are really in the dark and reach for what feels like overly naive responses. The same stuff you hear reported on - but the bikes and tires are faster (OK, but how does that increase the watts pushed), the calorie intake is so much different (kinda sorta), there's more data. All good points, but then when I ask "does that explain the amount of difference" they just tend to shake their head, smile/laugh a bit, and say "I don't know"

 

[Extinction]

Agree, it is unpleasant (and unpleasant for those around me). I remember Wiggo who was wigging out half the time when he was in Tour winning shape! And I am quite sure they were taking medications to manage weight as well as mood.

Greg is a bit too simple in what he is stating. He might have been able to manage some of the watts, but not the w/kg, nor the day in/day out intensity. In other words, if you add the other metrics in, he would not be close to competing.

I actually find a number of the former pros I still chat with are really in the dark and reach for what feels like overly naive responses. The same stuff you hear reported on - but the bikes and tires are faster (OK, but how does that increase the watts pushed), the calorie intake is so much different (kinda sorta), there's more data. All good points, but then when I ask "does that explain the amount of difference" they just tend to shake their head, smile/laugh a bit, and say "I don't know"

Once Pharma really made a difference, like any developmental thing, it just keeps evolving and gets more effective. The Pandora's Box of cycling and sport, to say nothing of tech with regard to motors.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Once Pharma really made a difference, like any developmental thing, it just keeps evolving and gets more effective. The Pandora's Box of cycling and sport, to say nothing of tech with regard to motors.

Indeed, and the cover-up activity of the system does not stop even in off-season. Witness, for instance, a recent article on Cycling news about the discovering "truth" (just like that, in quotes) on motor doping. The implication must be that the real truth is doomed to remain hidden forever, or, possibly, in a true postmodernist fashion, simply does not exist. In the article itself, the most suspicious period with regard to motor doping is stated to be 2010-14 (yeah, right, 2020-present is obviously totally innocent in that regard, look how much slower it is ). Also, just today, an article on race bike shapes, using Colnago (who could have thought!) as an example. The main thesis there is the good old function before form: race bike designers, in relentless pursuit of speed, should -- and will -- completely abandon any esthetic considerations. So, folks, get ready to Tuddly's bikes looking -- and riding -- more and more like small ugly motorcycles and him becoming faster and arriving fresher. (A related small observation: in the most recent Colnago, the seat tube hugs the rear wheel even more, additionally pointing to the distributed nature of the motor used there.)

 

[Cookster15]

in the most recent Colnago, the seat tube hugs the rear wheel even more, additionally pointing to the distributed nature of the motor used there

We can all believe what we want to believe. If and when there is actual evidence I will jump on him. But this is getting silly. All that is required is a qualified mechanic inspect the bikes - including disassembly if deemed necessary. IMHO, no way could a motor be concealed from close inspection - impossible. That includes any known form of supplementary electrical or magnetic assistance ie “distributed nature”.

 

[Casual cyclist]

We can all believe what we want to believe. If and when there is actual evidence I will jump on him. But this is getting silly. All that is required is a qualified mechanic inspect the bikes - including disassembly if deemed necessary. IMHO, no way could a motor be concealed from close inspection - impossible. That includes any known form of supplementary electrical or magnetic assistance ie “distributed nature”.

Sometimes, it feels good to state the obvious, doesn't it? Let me make that statement a bit more precise. If a "special" bicycle undergoes a close inspection by an objective mechanic, interested in truth discovery, its "special" nature is certain to be discovered. Easy to see that, stated this way, it becomes highly conditional. In other words, if the bike is subjected to inspection is not the one just ridden, but its twin, or, if the mechanic in question is interested in something else rather than truth discovery (e.g. something trivial like his future pension size), then the inevitable conclusion (discovery of its "secret") is no longer inevitable., but more of its opposite. That funny episode immediately following this year WCRR finish and inadvertently caught on camera is a quite likely good example thereof.

 

[Cookster15]

Sometimes, it feels good to state the obvious, doesn't it? Let me make that statement a bit more precise. If a "special" bicycle undergoes a close inspection by an objective mechanic, interested in truth discovery, its "special" nature is certain to be discovered. Easy to see that, stated this way, it becomes highly conditional. In other words, if the bike is subjected to inspection is not the one just ridden, but its twin, or, if the mechanic in question is interested in something else rather than truth discovery (e.g. something trivial like his future pension size), then the inevitable conclusion (discovery of its "secret") is no longer inevitable., but more of its opposite. That funny episode immediately following this year WCRR finish and inadvertently caught on camera is a quite likely good example thereof.

But it’s not obvious. Occum’s razor says the shape of his new frame is for aerodynamics and stiffness - not to conceal a motor.

But you are adding a layer to the conspiracy - now we add UCI collusion. That’s been discussed before. Because a trained mechanic won’t have any trouble whatsoever finding the motor - even these “distributed” types you allude to.

Time will tell but I am unswayed by this motor theory.

 

[peterfin]

Colnago claims that with the new bike Pogi will do 20 watts more at 50 km/h. That's exactly what he needs to be competitive Honestly, I can't believe the VR4s was that bad. 20 watts extra is what I expect a small motor would do.

 

[YellowSocks]

Pogi will do 20 watts more at 50 km/h

This is a new step: precisely quantified marginal gains announced in advance. We are warned: next season promises to be pretty scary.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Sometimes we forget how s#it was UAE between 2019-2023 and Pogacar was still the best. Now that UAE probably caught Visma, Pogacar is distancing from his rivals. These 20 watts are a marketing move, don't worry.

 

[YellowSocks]

These 20 watts are a marketing move, don't worry

A marketing move that silences questions from the beginning. Hey, we warned you from last December, it's because of the new bike!