Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Cookster15]

Merckx was most likely the most talented of his generation (and I still believe of all-time). Doping wasn't that sophisticated these days so I doubt he could just crush the peloton for so many years only by having an edge in his doping skills. Pogi may be the most talented overall today but it is the rate of change in his improvements that shows his 'program' is apparantly much more effective than his competitors. The same can be said about UEA vs the other teams. They seem to have an edge today and obviously that helps Pogacar being so dominant this year.

The rate of change can also be explained by age. To be clear, I know he is doping to the limits but I also think he is the most talented rider in a generation.

 

[Cookster15]

This time, there is someone who have a better doping program than almost everybody else. It's not like Pogacar is a more talented one day racer than evenepoel( if we look at the previous seasons), but this season the doping program of UAE was miles above the doping programm
of Lefevre, because they don’t have the same resources.

In the Merckx era, there wasn't the case.

You could be right. But that leads back to the UCI. The better doping program should have been detected via the controls. That includes autologous blood doping and EPO microdosing. I just hope we don’t have to wait 8 years to find out (Cobo).

I also disagree he isn’t more talented doping or not.

 

[Rob5091]

Lappi is not going to let a major doping scandal happen until efter March next year.

 

[pastronef]

Lappi is not going to let a major doping scandal happen until efter March next year.

as a Sky fan I can't but feel Schadenfreude for Lappartient's stint at the head of the UCI. Sky won another 2 TDF and 3 Giro and Roubaix after he was elected and had his goal of stopping them. and the performances we see now make Sky performances look almost normal. remember when they said "cycling" was in danger cause Sky was winning the TDF? ahahah

 

[Peyroteo94]

You could be right. But that leads back to the UCI. The better doping program should have been detected via the controls. That includes autologous blood doping and EPO microdosing. I just hope we don’t have to wait 8 years to find out (Cobo).

I also disagree he isn’t more talented doping or not.

He is more talented and he always was the best one day racer in the world. The gap just got bigger.
What he does in all terrains, it is just a proof he is so much more talented than other riders.

 

[Froome]

He is more talented and he always was the best one day racer in the world. The gap just got bigger.
What he does in all terrains, it is just a proof he is so much more talented than other riders.

This is not true. You should first check the facts.

In the 2022 season Evenepoel had actually a better one day race season than Pogacar.

Pogacar only won Il Lombardia and strade bianche.

Remco won LBL, also won World championships and San Sebastian against Pogacar.

 

[Oldermanish]

Of course. But he crushed the opposition regardless. That is my point.

And what was available then wouldn't turn donkeys into GT thoroughbreds. IMO Tadej has always shown his talent. This last season, as I have said ad nauseum; is a product of his work/preparation and the inescapable fact that all of his major opponents were seriously injured at least once in the season before his GT rides. Next year's races should be more reliably illuminating.

 

[Oldermanish]

This time, there is someone who have a better doping program than almost everybody else. It's not like Pogacar is a more talented one day racer than evenepoel( if we look at the previous seasons), but this season the doping program of UAE was miles above the doping programm
of Lefevre, because they don’t have the same resources.

In the Merckx era, there wasn't the case.

Resources (money) alone can't account for the differential. You also suggest Tadej isn't a more talented one day rider. I believe he is at least as good for the races that most interest him and his opponents think so, too.

That doesn't mean UAE, Visma or any other team doesn't know better how to apply medical aids, either. Evidence suggests they do.

 

[Unchained]

The rate of change can also be explained by age. To be clear, I know he is doping to the limits but I also think he is the most talented rider in a generation.

I own a number of books on bike racing, bike racers and cycling specific training. I watch,listen and read about bike racing from a variety of perspectives, including current riders, coaches, nutritional experts.
It would be great to see a real age to age comparison between Eddy Merckx and Pogocar.
Clothing, bike weight, gear ratios, race days, distances, nutrition, including hydration. Pro like Geraint Thomas has said that the way he trains, eats and hydration and nutrition are completely, almost 100% different than when he started. Many racers in Meckx era had issues related to saddle sores, hypothermia was a significant issue, dehydration. Another easy difference is body weight and philosophy, Old school riders were carrying extra weight intentionally, it was thought to be a health benefit. Riders like Jan Ulrich talking about calculations for extra baby weight as he started the season, all part of a formula to race and train off the extra and not have adverse health effects.
Many team tables had stacked plates of meat and Eddy era, meat was thought to be the major source for proteins and protective nutrients.. Thinking of Merckx wearing wool shorts and jerseys and the chamoiux ..yikes!!! Pogocar big issues are if he gets a cold sore or hair is sticking out of his helmet correctly..
You could be right and he is fully pharma-d' but I think it's lots of things

 

[GuntherL1]

And what was available then wouldn't turn donkeys into GT thoroughbreds. IMO Tadej has always shown his talent. This last season, as I have said ad nauseum; is a product of his work/preparation and the inescapable fact that all of his major opponents were seriously injured at least once in the season before his GT rides. Next year's races should be more reliably illuminating.

Really? I saw a rider who was effortlessly dominant in almost 60 days of WT racing and he didn't show one moment of weakness in any of them. Considering his management, it is inconceivable to me that anyone could think this happened without cheating. It's been obvious to me since 2019, but last season was just obscene.

 

[Oldermanish]

Really? I saw a rider who was effortlessly dominant in almost 60 days of WT racing and he didn't show one moment of weakness in any of them. Considering his management, it is inconceivable to me that anyone could think this happened without cheating. It's been obvious to me since 2019, but last season was just obscene.

You don't really read what anyone else posts, do you? I haven't read a post in pages that suggests any WT rider in the top 10 of any race is clean.
So, no one believes that. What you saw and your reaction perhaps suggests some other rider you favor was clean and should have prevailed?

 

[Extinction]

You don't really read what anyone else posts, do you? I haven't read a post in pages that suggests any WT rider in the top 10 of any race is clean.
So, no one believes that. What you saw and your reaction perhaps suggests some other rider you favor was clean and should have prevailed?

It's difficult to imagine what "most talented" and "most doped" means anymore, given the advancements per budget. In the "innocent 80s" among the best, there was still a fluctuation, a moment of weakness, a real race between top contenders. Now we have only a pompa triumphalis from beginning to end.

 

[houtdffan]

This is not true. You should first check the facts.

In the 2022 season Evenepoel had actually a better one day race season than Pogacar.

Pogacar only won Il Lombardia and strade bianche.

Remco won LBL, also won World championships and San Sebastian against Pogacar.

how long was Remco's attack at the 2022 worlds?

 

[Oldermanish]

how long was Remco's attack at the 2022 worlds?

....and Pogacar became the youngest UCI Tour winner in 2019.
2022 WC was similar to this year's WCRR. Everyone expected someone else to put out most of the effort to chase. Too little, too late.

 

[Unchained]

Really? I saw a rider who was effortlessly dominant in almost 60 days of WT racing and he didn't show one moment of weakness in any of them. Considering his management, it is inconceivable to me that anyone could think this happened without cheating. It's been obvious to me since 2019, but last season was just obscene.

Wow! You should immediately take action!! There are national and international fan clubs for Pogacar, your praise definitely qualifying!!
And why forget in 2019 Pogacar was absolutely outstanding and on a skyward trajectory, as seen in 2020!!
His riding style and intelligent tactics and super surrounding support have him looking obviously awesome in your view, mine too. Being great doesn't mean you are cheating.. and everyone is above average, average speeds, individual records of all types being shattered. Best recorded times up legendary climbs broken by multiple riders not just Pogacar. This type of attention, negative or positive is absolutely fantastic for UAE and for Pogacar and teammates, being told on repeat that he is awesome, unbeatable. That type of hype when believed is powerful and useful. People are coming for him rest assured!! All athletes that look invincible turn out to be human.. I realize that waiting for them to show human frailty is frustrating..
But always calling cheating is a cheap shot, made even easier by internet anonymity.
I have confidence that Pogacar suffers, that he works hard for what he is getting today and will get in the future, despite mountains of doubt, ugliness and hate from his detractors.
2 UAE riders are likely riding passed my house as I am typing.. Until I have a reason to dislike him, I have dozens of reasons for admiration for Tadej..
Records are made to be broken

 

[Froome]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but Matxin had the audacity to buy a rider from Sabugal, a team from Portugal?

What a show of shame. They don’t care anymore.

 

[E_F_]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but Matxin had the audacity to buy a rider from Sabugal, a team from Portugal?

What a show of shame. They don’t care anymore.

Makes perfect sense. Get dumped as a domestique by Intermarché - Circus - Wanty - Gobert - Accent.jobs - Willems Verandas - Ledecq Metriaux - Storez; go to Portugal to get souped up; get signed as a domestique by UAE; profit.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Makes perfect sense. Get dumped as a domestique by Intermarché - Circus - Wanty - Gobert - Accent.jobs - Willems Verandas - Ledecq Metriaux - Storez; go to Portugal to get souped up; get signed as a domestique by UAE; profit.

tbf, signing someone who has never moved past being a rouleur/big engine guy even when riding for a shady Portugese CT team is one of the more low risk moves when it comes to sign someone from that scene.

 

[Cookster15]

And why forget in 2019 Pogacar was absolutely outstanding and on a skyward trajectory, as seen in 2020!!

His detractors seem to think you don't improve quickly at 20 years of age and only Gianetti can explain that. Poor Pogi is hated because he wasn't winning so much as a teenager - well duh! It should be clear already that Juan Ayuso is no Tadej Pogacar.

 

[E_F_]

Disregarding the fact that Pogacar simply has to be cheating*:

There's nothing in Pogacar's career before signing with UAE to suggest that he would become the rider he is today.

There's also nothing in Pogacar's career before signing with UAE to suggest that he couldn't become the rider he is today.

(*i.e. insofar as this is true for any rider in the peloton)

 

[Peyroteo94]

Disregarding the fact that Pogacar simply has to be cheating*:

There's nothing in Pogacar's career before signing with UAE to suggest that he would become the rider he is today.

There's also nothing in Pogacar's career before signing with UAE to suggest that he couldn't become the rider he is today.

(*i.e. insofar as this is true for any rider in the peloton)

We will never see a young rider (Under 19) and say he will reach GOAT level. It is just impossible.
No one thought Messi would reach the level he has today. We thought he could be a new Ronaldinho but not the greatest ever. Djoko/Federer the same. Jordan the same (he was rejected by Adidas). There is only person hyped (to become GOAT in snooker) since his early youth and that man is Ronnie O'Sullivan.
Sometimes I read here that Pogi was just an average young rider because he was losing to Hirschi... I just ask people to do this exercise. Tell me how many riders have a better palmares than Pogacar before turning 24 years old (last category before Elite).

 

[Peyroteo94]

We will never see a young rider (Under 19) and say he will reach GOAT level. It is just impossible.
No one thought Messi would reach the level he has today. We thought he could be a new Ronaldinho but not the greatest ever. Djoko/Federer the same. Jordan the same (he was rejected by Adidas). There is only person hyped (to become GOAT in snooker) since his early youth and that man is Ronnie O'Sullivan.
Sometimes I read here that Pogi was just an average young rider because he was losing to Hirschi... I just ask people to do this exercise. Tell me how many riders have a better palmares than Pogacar before turning 24 years old (last category before Elite).

But of course he is doping and has a better doping program than 90% of the peloton. But I don't see in what world is (for example) Visma behind UAE specially after seeing Kuss winning the Vuelta after doing 2 GTs.
And being a good responder is also part of being very talented.

 

[Unchained]

Disregarding the fact that Pogacar simply has to be cheating*:

There's nothing in Pogacar's career before signing with UAE to suggest that he would become the rider he is today.

There's also nothing in Pogacar's career before signing with UAE to suggest that he couldn't become the rider he is today.

(*i.e. insofar as this is true for any rider in the peloton)

Pogacar put the world on notice in 2019, he won a difficult small stage race Tour of California and was lights out in the Vuelta same year, he has been going upwards at varying degrees since 2019, plenty of indicators of greatness as soon as he signed with UAE ,a major squad. He has shown poised positioning even in his first year. Other young riders on UAE showing promise, but Pogacar did his winning in his first grand tour.
The intimidation factor that Pogacar brings to every race, one day and stage races can't currently be measured. Instead of UAE and media team promoting his prowess, Pogacar given a trillion dollars worth of free promotion and positive momentum in current , uber sportsmanship climate.
All teams and major competitors praise him, talk of his superiority, his invulnerable ability.. It helps him and is something more for others to overcome.
Not like Pogacar needs help being placed on a god like pedestal, but with explosion in media, everyone from cycling, Armstrong, Merckx, the who's who of bike racing on in a constant state of praise and amazement w Pogacar. It's all additional momentum making him harder to beat.
It's as if the new normal is to claim him the victor before every start and claim to be racing for second or scraps he is willing to donate. Probably most disgusting and disrespectful, disappointing example is Ineos, team top to bottom trash each other, management included but somehow find time and energy to sing the praises of Pogacar's awesomeness!! Guys on his own team saying Bernal is overpaid and currently incapable of leadership.. That's got to be motivation out on an 8 hour training ride in the rain, in the mountains.. Silly tactics..

 

[Rob5091]

It's those aero tufts of hair that make all the difference, you know.

 

[Cookster15]

Disregarding the fact that Pogacar simply has to be cheating*:

There's nothing in Pogacar's career before signing with UAE to suggest that he would become the rider he is today.

There's also nothing in Pogacar's career before signing with UAE to suggest that he couldn't become the rider he is today.

(*i.e. insofar as this is true for any rider in the peloton)

He was only 19 back then. Maybe Gianetti transformed him but at that age who has been racing pro long enough to have a comparable benchmark? A example of strange transformation is Froome. But Froome was already 26 at the 2011 Vuelta. The entire premise of the OP’s reasoning for this thread is flawed.

Do I think Pogi is doping? Of course. As were riders like Contador.

But do I think he has an unfair advantage against every other pro in the peloton? Not from what I can yet tell. Now we even get weird motor theories here?

The other thing is hypocrisy. We get fans of Pog’s rivals claim that being a better responder is talent. Then get upset when another rider responds better than their own favoured cheater. Just silly.