Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[E_F_]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but Matxin had the audacity to buy a rider from Sabugal, a team from Portugal?

What a show of shame. They don’t care anymore.

Makes perfect sense. Get dumped as a domestique by Intermarché - Circus - Wanty - Gobert - Accent.jobs - Willems Verandas - Ledecq Metriaux - Storez; go to Portugal to get souped up; get signed as a domestique by UAE; profit.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Makes perfect sense. Get dumped as a domestique by Intermarché - Circus - Wanty - Gobert - Accent.jobs - Willems Verandas - Ledecq Metriaux - Storez; go to Portugal to get souped up; get signed as a domestique by UAE; profit.

tbf, signing someone who has never moved past being a rouleur/big engine guy even when riding for a shady Portugese CT team is one of the more low risk moves when it comes to sign someone from that scene.

 

[Cookster15]

And why forget in 2019 Pogacar was absolutely outstanding and on a skyward trajectory, as seen in 2020!!

His detractors seem to think you don't improve quickly at 20 years of age and only Gianetti can explain that. Poor Pogi is hated because he wasn't winning so much as a teenager - well duh! It should be clear already that Juan Ayuso is no Tadej Pogacar.

 

[E_F_]

Disregarding the fact that Pogacar simply has to be cheating*:

There's nothing in Pogacar's career before signing with UAE to suggest that he would become the rider he is today.

There's also nothing in Pogacar's career before signing with UAE to suggest that he couldn't become the rider he is today.

(*i.e. insofar as this is true for any rider in the peloton)

 

[Peyroteo94]

Disregarding the fact that Pogacar simply has to be cheating*:

There's nothing in Pogacar's career before signing with UAE to suggest that he would become the rider he is today.

There's also nothing in Pogacar's career before signing with UAE to suggest that he couldn't become the rider he is today.

(*i.e. insofar as this is true for any rider in the peloton)

We will never see a young rider (Under 19) and say he will reach GOAT level. It is just impossible.
No one thought Messi would reach the level he has today. We thought he could be a new Ronaldinho but not the greatest ever. Djoko/Federer the same. Jordan the same (he was rejected by Adidas). There is only person hyped (to become GOAT in snooker) since his early youth and that man is Ronnie O'Sullivan.
Sometimes I read here that Pogi was just an average young rider because he was losing to Hirschi... I just ask people to do this exercise. Tell me how many riders have a better palmares than Pogacar before turning 24 years old (last category before Elite).

 

[Peyroteo94]

We will never see a young rider (Under 19) and say he will reach GOAT level. It is just impossible.
No one thought Messi would reach the level he has today. We thought he could be a new Ronaldinho but not the greatest ever. Djoko/Federer the same. Jordan the same (he was rejected by Adidas). There is only person hyped (to become GOAT in snooker) since his early youth and that man is Ronnie O'Sullivan.
Sometimes I read here that Pogi was just an average young rider because he was losing to Hirschi... I just ask people to do this exercise. Tell me how many riders have a better palmares than Pogacar before turning 24 years old (last category before Elite).

But of course he is doping and has a better doping program than 90% of the peloton. But I don't see in what world is (for example) Visma behind UAE specially after seeing Kuss winning the Vuelta after doing 2 GTs.
And being a good responder is also part of being very talented.

 

[Unchained]

Disregarding the fact that Pogacar simply has to be cheating*:

There's nothing in Pogacar's career before signing with UAE to suggest that he would become the rider he is today.

There's also nothing in Pogacar's career before signing with UAE to suggest that he couldn't become the rider he is today.

(*i.e. insofar as this is true for any rider in the peloton)

Pogacar put the world on notice in 2019, he won a difficult small stage race Tour of California and was lights out in the Vuelta same year, he has been going upwards at varying degrees since 2019, plenty of indicators of greatness as soon as he signed with UAE ,a major squad. He has shown poised positioning even in his first year. Other young riders on UAE showing promise, but Pogacar did his winning in his first grand tour.
The intimidation factor that Pogacar brings to every race, one day and stage races can't currently be measured. Instead of UAE and media team promoting his prowess, Pogacar given a trillion dollars worth of free promotion and positive momentum in current , uber sportsmanship climate.
All teams and major competitors praise him, talk of his superiority, his invulnerable ability.. It helps him and is something more for others to overcome.
Not like Pogacar needs help being placed on a god like pedestal, but with explosion in media, everyone from cycling, Armstrong, Merckx, the who's who of bike racing on in a constant state of praise and amazement w Pogacar. It's all additional momentum making him harder to beat.
It's as if the new normal is to claim him the victor before every start and claim to be racing for second or scraps he is willing to donate. Probably most disgusting and disrespectful, disappointing example is Ineos, team top to bottom trash each other, management included but somehow find time and energy to sing the praises of Pogacar's awesomeness!! Guys on his own team saying Bernal is overpaid and currently incapable of leadership.. That's got to be motivation out on an 8 hour training ride in the rain, in the mountains.. Silly tactics..

 

[Rob5091]

It's those aero tufts of hair that make all the difference, you know.

 

[Cookster15]

Disregarding the fact that Pogacar simply has to be cheating*:

There's nothing in Pogacar's career before signing with UAE to suggest that he would become the rider he is today.

There's also nothing in Pogacar's career before signing with UAE to suggest that he couldn't become the rider he is today.

(*i.e. insofar as this is true for any rider in the peloton)

He was only 19 back then. Maybe Gianetti transformed him but at that age who has been racing pro long enough to have a comparable benchmark? A example of strange transformation is Froome. But Froome was already 26 at the 2011 Vuelta. The entire premise of the OP’s reasoning for this thread is flawed.

Do I think Pogi is doping? Of course. As were riders like Contador.

But do I think he has an unfair advantage against every other pro in the peloton? Not from what I can yet tell. Now we even get weird motor theories here?

The other thing is hypocrisy. We get fans of Pog’s rivals claim that being a better responder is talent. Then get upset when another rider responds better than their own favoured cheater. Just silly.

 

[GuntherL1]

You don't really read what anyone else posts, do you? I haven't read a post in pages that suggests any WT rider in the top 10 of any race is clean.
So, no one believes that. What you saw and your reaction perhaps suggests some other rider you favor was clean and should have prevailed?

Well, I disagree. I see no reason to think that riders like Evenepoel, Roglic or Jorgenson are cheating. That's why we saw amazing duels between them in the past few years. They have occasional bad days and they have to balance their efforts. Now compare this with the absurdity Pogacar displayed this year.

 

[GuntherL1]

We will never see a young rider (Under 19) and say he will reach GOAT level. It is just impossible.
No one thought Messi would reach the level he has today. We thought he could be a new Ronaldinho but not the greatest ever. Djoko/Federer the same. Jordan the same (he was rejected by Adidas). There is only person hyped (to become GOAT in snooker) since his early youth and that man is Ronnie O'Sullivan.
Sometimes I read here that Pogi was just an average young rider because he was losing to Hirschi... I just ask people to do this exercise. Tell me how many riders have a better palmares than Pogacar before turning 24 years old (last category before Elite).

That's the wrong question. I'll fix it for you. Check how many riders had a better palmares than Pogacar before he signed for UAE.

 

[GuntherL1]

Wow! You should immediately take action!! There are national and international fan clubs for Pogacar, your praise definitely qualifying!!
And why forget in 2019 Pogacar was absolutely outstanding and on a skyward trajectory, as seen in 2020!!
His riding style and intelligent tactics and super surrounding support have him looking obviously awesome in your view, mine too. Being great doesn't mean you are cheating.. and everyone is above average, average speeds, individual records of all types being shattered. Best recorded times up legendary climbs broken by multiple riders not just Pogacar. This type of attention, negative or positive is absolutely fantastic for UAE and for Pogacar and teammates, being told on repeat that he is awesome, unbeatable. That type of hype when believed is powerful and useful. People are coming for him rest assured!! All athletes that look invincible turn out to be human.. I realize that waiting for them to show human frailty is frustrating..
But always calling cheating is a cheap shot, made even easier by internet anonymity.
I have confidence that Pogacar suffers, that he works hard for what he is getting today and will get in the future, despite mountains of doubt, ugliness and hate from his detractors.
2 UAE riders are likely riding passed my house as I am typing.. Until I have a reason to dislike him, I have dozens of reasons for admiration for Tadej..
Records are made to be broken

He already rode for UAE in 2019 with the dirtiest management in history, so that means nothing. Regarding 2020: if you think a 20-year old with no time trial pedigree can beat the entire world elite by more the minute at the end of a GT, that's ok. Ater all, as a former great racer once said: "I'm sorry for you. I'm sorry that you can't dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles."
I don't believe in miracles, especially if Mauro Gianetti is your boss.
Don't feel sorry for me.

 

[Peyroteo94]

That's the wrong question. I'll fix it for you. Check how many riders had a better palmares than Pogacar before he signed for UAE.

To fit your narrative? I said under 23 because after that they are Elite (a rider is considered in his youth until he turns 24. Not my narrative, that's the way cycling works)
Fábio Paim was better than Cristiano Ronaldo. Do you even know who is Paim?

 

[Peyroteo94]

He already rode for UAE in 2019 with the dirtiest management in history, so that means nothing. Regarding 2020: if you think a 20-year old with no time trial pedigree can beat the entire world elite by more the minute at the end of a GT, that's ok. Ater all, as a former great racer once said: "I'm sorry for you. I'm sorry that you can't dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles."
I don't believe in miracles, especially if Mauro Gianetti is your boss.
Don't feel sorry for me.

Who said he is not doping? I think we all agree he is really juiced. That's not the point we are debating.

 

[E_F_]

It only makes sense that someone as dominant as Pog has multiple advantages: He's talented, he's a super responder, he's on the team with the best doping program, he has immunity because he's become synonymous with the sport.

 

[GuntherL1]

It only makes sense that someone as dominant as Pog has multiple advantages: He's talented, he's a super responder, he's on the team with the best doping program, he has immunity because he's become synonymous with the sport.

"the team with the best doping program". Which other UAE riders are nearly invincible.

 

[GuntherL1]

To fit your narrative? I said under 23 because after that they are Elite (a rider is considered in his youth until he turns 24. Not my narrative, that's the way cycling works)
Fábio Paim was better than Cristiano Ronaldo. Do you even know who is Paim?

No. To fit my logical explanation. Something changed when he signed for UAE. I don't care about some arbitrary age category. Watch Pablo Torres next season to see whether he becomes Pogacar II.
We're not talking about football, so I'll skip your last question.

 

[E_F_]

"the team with the best doping program". Which other UAE riders are nearly invincible.

To be nearly invicible you have to have multiple advantages, is what I wrote. Being on UAE is only one of Pogacar's advantages. You need to work on your syllogisms.

 

[GuntherL1]

To be nearly invicible you have to have multiple advantages, is what I wrote. Being on UAE is only one of Pogacar's advantages. You need to work on your syllogisms.

Sure, but "he's a super responder"/ "he has immunity because he's become synonymous with the sport." is just speculation, because we don't know what's going on.
I don't know whether UAE has the best doping program as a team. The team is not exceptional. I do know that the assistance Pogacar gets, is not found anywhere else. I've never seen anything like it.

 

[Stablo]

Really? I saw a rider who was effortlessly dominant in almost 60 days of WT racing and he didn't show one moment of weakness in any of them. Considering his management, it is inconceivable to me that anyone could think this happened without cheating. It's been obvious to me since 2019, but last season was just obscene.

Poggie monster is a full on creation of vampire Gianetti, Matxin and unlimited petro dollars. Like you said it started 2019, has been ridicilous on many occasions and the first wtf-moment was the 2020 TT in Le Tour. Last season still was something else, they really upped the level of their real life Frankenstein. Pulling out Ricco/Landis style performances all year long, always looking like on a sunday ride.

Yes he surely is talented, but pulling of these kind of things against other (super) talents, makes it imho very clear he has an advantage of something (maybe multiple things) the others dont have.

 

[Unchained]

Who said he is not doping? I think we all agree he is really juiced. That's not the point we are debating.

It's just a silly sandwich that keeps getting something stacked on top, an additional layer of cheese!! To be clear, it's China that controls all of cycling, including UCI. China is bike racing , without China and Taiwan there is no bike racing, no bicycle business, full stop. And as if it couldn't encroach further, Chinese brands look to be pushing the public process further with no more games and it's rumored that Astana will skip putting a Western brand name and just ride Chinese bikes without any disguise.
UAE has the most money for talent acquisition and development budget so far and people appear to be angry at arms race, or the perception that the team with the most money wins by buying it. And for a brief cycle that may indeed be true.
The premise that all of cycling, top to bottom, learned from their collective mistakes and are now in some coordinated collusion were Pogacar and company either have a doping program in plain sight and everyone involved, internationally has signed on to protect him and I guess everyone, sounds ridiculous. Equally ridiculous is that UAE has some super science doping plan that is undetectable in all countries, not only stealth in development, but completely stealth in administration to athletes, because after all, entire UAE team is almost never in the same place at the same time. Scenario here is UAE has the next level best in the world doping program and athletes, including Pogacar travel to a ultra secret lab for program to be administered, whatever that is..the latest is all UAE riders in a long line, riding Swift bikes with a vehicle in front of them giving them super secret CO rebreathing treatment.
Couldn't there be a less science fiction script, were Pogacar is peaking and like others before will have an era of greatness to naturally fade w age like everyone else, throughout history?
Or does it have to be that the evil oil barons have purchased everything and everyone for the sake of bike racing greatness legacy..
Had Pogacar crashed and been down for the count, Lets say Jay Vine and Pog changed places, would all this endless speculation be needed?
I have said it before, making Pogacar super human, unbeatable, legendary before he actually is, has to work in his favor.
Just a matter of time before a rider or team lunatic throws a public fit saying Pogacar is winning because he is " obviously " doped and everyone is in on the conspiracy, top to bottom, everyone has some reason to make him the king of kings, people watching him pee are getting a payment before to remain silent..

So back to your quote.. No we all don't agree that he is really juiced.. Don't believe in Bigfoot, Chupacabra, Tooth Fairy, tariffs aren't taxes, don't believe in any of that sh-t.

 

[Stablo]

So back to your quote.. No we all don't agree that he is really juiced.. Don't believe in Bigfoot, Chupacabra, Tooth Fairy, tariffs aren't taxes, don't believe in any of that sh-t.

Exactly on point. Almost no one believes in Bigfoot, Tooth Fairy etc., then why believe in Poggies last season, it is almost as absurd as believing in fairytales. He was highly suspicious even before, but 2024 just went straight to outer space. Well I guess the beliebers need him to literally start flying, before they think there's something veeryy shady going on with this one.

 

[Ripper]

It only makes sense that someone as dominant as Pog has multiple advantages: He's talented, he's a super responder, he's on the team with the best doping program, he has immunity because he's become synonymous with the sport.

I very much agree with the notion that he has multiple advantages. Money at a team level purchases better support and better technical improvements. Better access to anything and everything at a team level.

Money at a personal level can provide access to other forms of 'coaching' that are not universally accessible.

Not all doping is equivalent. Not all bikes are equivalent. Not all training programs are equivalent. Etc.

Absolutely, the dude is a talent. But there is a lot more to it.

A couple of truisms in sport they apply to Pog and UAE - enormous amounts of cash tends to buy good results (both legitimately and through unethical practices), and super corrupt people in leadership positions cannot ever be trusted.

 

[Pannenkooky]

This time, there is someone who have a better doping program than almost everybody else. It's not like Pogacar is a more talented one day racer than evenepoel( if we look at the previous seasons), but this season the doping program of UAE was miles above the doping programm
of Lefevre, because they don’t have the same resources.

In the Merckx era, there wasn't the case.

true...or it could be something like Pogi benefits most from the program. Like in the EPO days, if you had a naturally low hematocrit level and doped, you had max gains.

 

[Extinction]

And now we read that Lemond thinks it's all down to weight. I love Greg, but he seems conditioned by the good boy litany presented by the team and gobbled up by the press. While there was an Armstrong to investigate the money rolled in, now it pays more to not rock the boat. Everything is warm and fuzzy evidently.