Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[zlev11]

well I remember long discussions about Lance's alleged motor

if Lance had a motor i doubt Landis would know about it. that would've been kept between Lance, Johan and the mechanic installing it. still, i dont think the technology existed yet.

 

[Cookster15]

Some people will simply believe what they want to believe. Classic conspiracy theory psychology. I notice in this thread we have further refined our fears down to concealable motors that provide a mere 20W boost. But you still need some way to connect that motor to the drive train undetected. So we explain this by for example Pog's new bike?

My only hint of suspicion is with the UCI's silly overkill of €600K X-ray machines. Completely unnecessary. No motor devised on this planet can be concealed from reasonably trained mechanic who is empowered under the rules to disassemble the bike of the stage winner and overall leaders. Unless, you don't really want to find one?

 

[topcat]

Nearly everyone believes what they want to believe. Full objectivity is like the hidden motor, almost never seen.
I am struggling to explain Pog's performances - they are so far out of this world. I wouldn't be surprised if he had a motor and it is a cover up (his performances are that extreme). It probably is just a cocktail of blood boosting and other drugs that is becoming more refined each year. The word talent should be banned in this thread, unless it refers to the doctors. And before anyone says it, Vingo is at it too (absolutely unbelievable performance after horrific injury).

 

[Cookster15]

The word talent should be banned in this thread, unless it refers to the doctors

Agree. Yet we have posters in this forum who actually believe talent includes doping response. That is just sad.

 

[Casual cyclist]

if Lance had a motor i doubt Landis would know about it. that would've been kept between Lance, Johan and the mechanic installing it. still, i dont think the technology existed yet.

The technology -- brushless motors with programmable controllers powered by lithium (lipo or li-ion) batteries -- was already there. I used it myself as early as 2003 on RC cars. Safe to assume, if it was available to the average consumer then, it surely could be obtained custom order 5 years prior. It was relatively new at that time, yes. But that is even better as others would be a lot less likely to guess that a little nasty motor inside Lance's frame was responsible for his miraculous transformation from a GC (i.e. high mountain climbing and time trial) dud to a goat.

 

[zlev11]

The technology -- brushless motors with programmable controllers powered by lithium (lipo or li-ion) batteries -- was already there. I used it myself as early as 2003 on RC cars. Safe to assume, if it was available to the average consumer then, it surely could be obtained custom order 5 years prior. It was relatively new at that time, yes. But that is even better as others would be a lot less likely to guess that a little nasty motor inside Lance's frame was responsible for his miraculous transformation from a GC (i.e. high mountain climbing and time trial) dud to a goat.

interesting. i certainly wouldn't put it past him or anyone else in that era to use it if it was available, i just didn't really think it was possible/would actually work well enough to try back then.

 

[Cookster15]

interesting. i certainly wouldn't put it past him or anyone else in that era to use it if it was available, i just didn't really think it was possible/would actually work well enough to try back then.

This is far fetched IMO. Modern brushless motors used in RC cars can produce over 700Watts of power. As we have discussed here we are looking for 20-30watt boost at most to make it less obvious. I think it is universally accepted that Armstrong’s feats and post cancer transformation were achieved by optimising his blood doping and a few favours by the UCI looking the other way? No need for motor theories to explain him.

 

[topt]

Apart from the suitcase full of money, there is the other way of making someone an offer he cann't refuse ...normaly beginning with being told they know where you and your family live.

true, UCI is more like Sopranos

 

[topt]

Oh, I am sure that, should anything ever officially "come out" for any reason, it will be just that, like with Lance. No way they are going to admit to motor doping at the top, e.g. the Red Nose having been doing it for his "miracle" rides. In the worst case, it could be some random guy from a small team getting "caught" just to show that "the system works", As to real motor doping, it could become a kind of an open secret in due time but will never be officially admitted to.

shouldnt you be on reedit discussing UFOs over US

 

[topt]

Some people will simply believe what they want to believe. Classic conspiracy theory psychology. I notice in this thread we have further refined our fears down to concealable motors that provide a mere 20W boost. But you still need some way to connect that motor to the drive train undetected. So we explain this by for example Pog's new bike?

My only hint of suspicion is with the UCI's silly overkill of €600K X-ray machines. Completely unnecessary. No motor devised on this planet can be concealed from reasonably trained mechanic who is empowered under the rules to disassemble the bike of the stage winner and overall leaders. Unless, you don't really want to find one?

oh come on, dont kill this

 

[Casual cyclist]

This is far fetched IMO. Modern brushless motors used in RC cars can produce over 700Watts of power. As we have discussed here we are looking for 20-30watt boost at most to make it less obvious.

Yes. Those small brushless motors pack some surprising for their size punch. But that 700W is max power that, if used constantly, overheats the small motor in no time. When I was having fun with that 1:10 RC truck, I carried a small IR thermometer in my pocket, checking the motor temperature regularly. On the other hand, if several dozen watts is all you need, that's what the controller is for, just like a throttle pedal in a car. For example, you have no difficulty driving your 300 hp car at 30mph that demands less than 10 hp of steady power. For brushless, if you run them at a fraction of maximum power, temperature is much easier to manage. Cold or rainy weather helps in that as well, by the way, correlating well with the common in the last few years observation that "Pogi likes cold". Speaking of the latter, by the looks of his no-sweat performances during this last year, he partook of significantly more than 20-30 watts of electron power at times.

I think it is universally accepted that Armstrong’s feats and post cancer transformation were achieved by optimising his blood doping and a few favours by the UCI looking the other way? No need for motor theories to explain him.

It is "universally accepted" following that TV circus about "exposing an evil bully" of a decade ago. But any media content, especially these days of ever increasing monopolization everywhere, is much more a product of the system propaganda factory than just a kind of "window into a larger world" and should be viewed as such by any educated individual.

 

[topt]

Yes. Those small brushless motors pack some surprising for their size punch. But that 700W is max power that, if used constantly, overheats the small motor in no time. When I was having fun with that 1:10 RC truck, I carried a small IR thermometer in my pocket, checking the motor temperature regularly. On the other hand, if several dozen watts is all you need, that's what the controller is for, just like a throttle pedal in a car. For example, you have no difficulty driving your 300 hp car at 30mph that demands less than 10 hp of steady power. For brushless, if you run them at a fraction of maximum power, temperature is much easier to manage. Cold or rainy weather helps in that as well, by the way, correlating well with the common in the last few years observation that "Pogi likes cold". Speaking of the latter, by the looks of his no-sweat performances during this last year, he partook of significantly more than 20-30 watts of electron power at times.

It is "universally accepted" following that TV circus about "exposing an evil bully" of a decade ago. But any media content, especially these days of ever increasing monopolization everywhere, is much more a product of the system propaganda factory than just a kind of "window into a larger world" and should be viewed as such by any educated individual.

oh my God
so, let me get this Pogi is better in cold and rain cause his electric motor works better;
just wondering what happened betwen 23 and 24, did UAE got a better motor ? also where should we look for this motor, where is it ?

 

[topt]

also just thought about it; my boss has to be in this conspiracy, he was judge observer and senior judge many times in pro tour races, damn how deep goes this....

 

[SHAD0W93]

oh my God
so, let me get this Pogi is better in cold and rain cause his electric motor works better;
just wondering what happened betwen 23 and 24, did UAE got a better motor ? also where should we look for this motor, where is it ?

And with this theory it explains why Pog doesn’t like the heat, his motor overheats and burns him.

 

[topt]

And with this theory it explains why Pog doesn’t like the heat, his motor overheats and burns him.

yes, it all makes sense now

 

[zlev11]

Yes. Those small brushless motors pack some surprising for their size punch. But that 700W is max power that, if used constantly, overheats the small motor in no time. When I was having fun with that 1:10 RC truck, I carried a small IR thermometer in my pocket, checking the motor temperature regularly. On the other hand, if several dozen watts is all you need, that's what the controller is for, just like a throttle pedal in a car. For example, you have no difficulty driving your 300 hp car at 30mph that demands less than 10 hp of steady power. For brushless, if you run them at a fraction of maximum power, temperature is much easier to manage. Cold or rainy weather helps in that as well, by the way, correlating well with the common in the last few years observation that "Pogi likes cold". Speaking of the latter, by the looks of his no-sweat performances during this last year, he partook of significantly more than 20-30 watts of electron power at times.

It is "universally accepted" following that TV circus about "exposing an evil bully" of a decade ago. But any media content, especially these days of ever increasing monopolization everywhere, is much more a product of the system propaganda factory than just a kind of "window into a larger world" and should be viewed as such by any educated individual.

great post. these facts will be thrown away and discarded by the miracle believers in this thread but please keep sharing your expertise. do you remember how much water Landis kept dumping over himself on stage 17 in 2006? it was excessive and i've always thought it was weird, it was not a particularly hot day and i've never seen anyone else do it that much. do you think he could've been trying to cool off a hub or crank motor with the water? that could be why he never blabbed about Lance's motor (if he knew about it), because he used one himself.

 

[zlev11]

also just thought about it; my boss has to be in this conspiracy, he was judge observer and senior judge many times in pro tour races, damn how deep goes this....

nice maybe your boss can teach you how watts per kg work

 

[topt]

nice maybe your boss can teach you how watts per kg work

yeah i would ask him but after reading this subforum i dont trust him anymore; "the expertise" showed by people that opened an account here just to *** on riders (aka cycling fans) really opened my eyes.

A bit serious now; i am not saying motors werent used in the past when there were no checking of bikes, but now ZERO chance

 

[Casual cyclist]

shouldnt you be on reedit discussing UFOs over US

Really? That's a personal attack, I should probably report you... Don't worry, I won't, but since the statement has been made, let us dwell on it a bit and briefly rationally analyze its slightly veiled message. I sense a clear innuendo at the so called "conspiracy theory" stereotype that's been steadily promoted by the mainstream media for what is now many decades. Everyone is familiar with it: its purpose is to create a negative connotation associated with believing in the existence of "conspiracies", i.e. any purposeful actions information about which is either not readily shared or deliberately concealed from the general public. Its form is generally humorous-sarcastic, with hyberbolization and appeal to emotions often employed to make the main premise sound more convincing. Two such widely used hyperboles is "tin hats" and, more recently, "flat earth".

Its positive content is usually implied and not stated explicitly but, if it were to be made such, it would sound like something along the lines of "there is total transparency everywhere, nothing is ever concealed from the public, all the official media content is always 100% truthful". As one can see, just stating the main premise of said stereotype in a positive way makes it immediately clear why it exists in the form it exists in: pretty much any sane and minimally competent person would consider it an insult to his or her intelligence if asked to put own signature under any statement of the type just mentioned. But can the negative form of the stereotype hold up to any rational scrutiny? Well, that also a rhetorical question isn't it? Indeed, it is not a secret for anyone paying even minimal attention to the surroundings that the main job of literally millions of people consists of nothing but conspiracies. Employees of such government agencies as CIA, NSA and such, to not even mention the bewildering multitude of various security firms, security departments of large corporations, holdings etc. get their monthly paycheck thereby feeding their families solely on the successes of their everyday conspiracy related activities.

Thus the "conspiracy theory" stereotype used in any rational discussion really serves the purpose of masking the lack of rational arguments where it usually fails anyway unless the said discussion is taken over by emotions.

 

[Casual cyclist]

great post. these facts will be thrown away and discarded by the miracle believers in this thread but please keep sharing your expertise. do you remember how much water Landis kept dumping over himself on stage 17 in 2006? it was excessive and i've always thought it was weird, it was not a particularly hot day and i've never seen anyone else do it that much. do you think he could've been trying to cool off a hub or crank motor with the water? that could be why he never blabbed about Lance's motor (if he knew about it), because he used one himself.

I did not know about this little episode with Landis. Very interesting. Thanks for pointing it out. The thing is, after a couple TDF victories by the Hunchback of Texas, I decided that I had enough of that farce and stopped watching pro cycling until about 2011. So I managed to completely miss the whole Landis story.

 

[topt]

Really? That's a personal attack, I should probably report you... Don't worry, I won't, but since the statement has been made, let us dwell on it a bit and briefly rationally analyze its slightly veiled message. I sense a clear innuendo at the so called "conspiracy theory" stereotype that's been steadily promoted by the mainstream media for what is now many decades. Everyone is familiar with it: its purpose is to create a negative connotation associated with believing in the existence of "conspiracies", i.e. any purposeful actions information about which is either not readily shared or deliberately concealed from the general public. Its form is generally humorous-sarcastic, with hyberbolization and appeal to emotions often employed to make the main premise sound more convincing. Two such widely used hyperboles is "tin hats" and, more recently, "flat earth".

Its positive content is usually implied and not stated explicitly but, if it were to be made such, it would sound like something along the lines of "there is total transparency everywhere, nothing is ever concealed from the public, all the official media content is always 100% truthful". As one can see, just stating the main premise of said stereotype in a positive way makes it immediately clear why it exists in the form it exists in: pretty much any sane and minimally competent person would consider it an insult to his or her intelligence if asked to put own signature under any statement of the type just mentioned. But can the negative form of the stereotype hold up to any rational scrutiny? Well, that also a rhetorical question isn't it? Indeed, it is not a secret for anyone paying even minimal attention to the surroundings that the main job of literally millions of people consists of nothing but conspiracies. Employees of such government agencies as CIA, NSA and such, to not even mention the bewildering multitude of various security firms, security departments of large corporations, holdings etc. get their monthly paycheck thereby feeding their families solely on the successes of their everyday conspiracy related activities.

Thus the "conspiracy theory" stereotype used in any rational discussion really serves the purpose of masking the lack of rational arguments where it usually fails anyway unless the said discussion is taken over by emotions.

where in the frame is the electric engine ? Crank and BB is removed and frame checked by camera, so where do they hide it ?
this is so wild and yes for somebody that has seen how things are done this if flat earth territory, we are checking bike frame here not a ship

 

[yaco]

There is no omerta when it comes to using motors. Pro cyclists consider motors to be cheating, whereas, using doping products is considered to be performance-enhancing.

 

[pastronef]

And with this theory it explains why Pog doesn’t like the heat, his motor overheats and burns him.

all while pulling the best climbing perf ever on Plateau on a warm July afternoon

 

[pastronef]

great post. these facts will be thrown away and discarded by the miracle believers in this thread but please keep sharing your expertise. do you remember how much water Landis kept dumping over himself on stage 17 in 2006? it was excessive and i've always thought it was weird, it was not a particularly hot day and i've never seen anyone else do it that much. do you think he could've been trying to cool off a hub or crank motor with the water? that could be why he never blabbed about Lance's motor (if he knew about it), because he used one himself.

depressed, brink of suicide, bankrupt, alcoholic, nothing to lose... and he wouldn't have told about his own motor? he was already burned, he had no future. just spill the beans on the motor you used and say motors are real in the peloton.
NOTHING, not a word.

 

[zlev11]

depressed, brink of suicide, bankrupt, alcoholic, nothing to lose... and he wouldn't have told about his own motor? he was already burned, he had no future. just spill the beans on the motor you used and say motors are real in the peloton.
NOTHING, not a word.

he still says he didn't use the testosterone he tested positive for!