Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Casual cyclist]

You wrote a lot but did not say much. Right off the bat you try to make a mockery out of my post by calling me an apologist and claiming I am disingenuous in my dislike of Pog. Let me make it very clear. I always root against Pog (maybe except the case when he is against Vingo 1vs1 in which case I root against both of them).
I am no philosopher, but I have read most of the important works and I know the ideas which are discussed. I am not a big fan of Hegel or Russel and I certainly believe that Marx's work did not result with anything good and his ideas are flawed. However, it seems to me that you did not understand why I even mentioned exceptional people and you certainly did not try to give any counter arguments to my statements.
The only thing you mentioned is the seated acceleration by Pog on FW. I invite you to make some calculations of the amount of force/torque needed to produce 600W or 700W and if it possible to do it seated.
Lastly, I actually am happy to reevaluate if some new evidence appears (or if you actually try to make an effort to provide a real argument).

Ok, let us do some calculations even though anyone who is a cyclist himself would not need any calculations in such a case. But let's assume you are just a fan (of Rog ). We have an estimated 700W at a relatively low cadence. Let's assume 90rpm (actually, not that low, but definitely not super high). 90 rpm is equal to 1.5*6.28 = 9.42 rad/s. So the required torque (assuming it to be constant) is 700/9.42=74 Nm. The required force is then (since Pogo uses 165mm cranks) 74/0.165=450 N or, 45kgf worth of force. That's the force equal to the weight of 45kg mass. Now recall that, if that comes from pedal pushing and not from a motor, then it can't be a constant value. The force applied to a pedal is naturally going to be very low near the top and bottom of a pedal stroke. So to calculate the effective force a pedaller has to apply, we need to introduce a coefficient equal to the proportion of the forward arc where the force can be approximately constant. I'd guess about 0.7. That would make the effective force equal to 45/0.7=64 kgf thus equaling Pogo's body weight. Now, are we going to believe that a person trying to apply a downward force equal to his body weight would not be absolutely compelled to put his weight over the point of said force application? The question is obviously of a rhetorical nature. If the UAE gang wanted to make this believable, then, knowing that the power Pogo+bike system was going to be that much higher than that of the rest. they would have Pogo stand on pedals and increase the cadence. Why did not they do so? They might not think that highly of their audience. And given the audience reaction, they might not be that wrong in thinking so.

 

[Stablo]

So if you follow Floyd follies goes something like this.. Got beat, got gassed, got the victory, when he got popped blamed it on everything, everyone including Jack Daniels..
After paying what he thought were his dues, rode for anyone who would have him..missed the good old days, asked Lance for a job, was told no. Called Lance back threatened to out him and everyone else if he wasn't thrown a bone..
Lunatic Lance wouldn't back down , Challenged Landis to rat..he did.
. Everyone knows the rest, Lance rolled over trying to save himself, agreed on whistleblower bundle of money.. Landis took drug money from Armstrong to start a drug selling business.. And the thing that must burn up many of them, millions of bitter, hurt ex supporters is that some of the same luck that Armstrong used to beat cancer, he deployed in business, few lucky breaks and Lance is still living and loving millionaire lifestyle!!
Landis hasn't raced for a pro team since 2006..pretending that he has insider information about what went on in 2020 TDF or anything up to date is laughable.. Pogacar probably sees Landis lamenting about what could have been and says who is this Floyd fella and why is he hating on me?

That's not Landis, like Zlev11 mentioned too 😂like for real. That's just some random guy, who had Floyds picture cause it also represents the cheating and conspiracies in cycling. The message in X from him, was just to point out the first outrageous and clear example of cheating from this monster and the clean backround team.

Well if the level of understanding is this, it's a lot easier to see the blind defence of Poggie aswell. Nothing to see here.

 

[Divergence]

Ok, let us do some calculations even though anyone who is a cyclist himself would not need any calculations in such a case. But let's assume you are just a fan (of Rog ). We have an estimated 700W at a relatively low cadence. Let's assume 90rpm (actually, not that low, but definitely not super high). 90 rpm is equal to 1.5*6.28 = 9.42 rad/s. So the required torque (assuming it to be constant) is 700/9.42=74 Nm. The required force is then (since Pogo uses 165mm cranks) 74/0.165=450 N or, 45kgf worth of force. That's the force equal to the weight of 45kg mass. Now recall that, if that comes from pedal pushing and not from a motor, then it can't be a constant value. The force applied to a pedal is naturally going to be very low near the top and bottom of a pedal stroke. So to calculate the effective force a pedaller has to apply, we need to introduce a coefficient equal to the proportion of the forward arc where the force can be approximately constant. I'd guess about 0.7. That would make the effective force equal to 45/0.7=64 kgf thus equaling Pogo's body weight. Now, are we going to believe that a person trying to apply a downward force equal to his body weight would not be absolutely compelled to put his weight over the point of said force application? The question is obviously of a rhetorical nature. If the UAE gang wanted to make this believable, then, knowing that the power Pogo+bike system was going to be that much higher than that of the rest. they would have Pogo stand on pedals and increase the cadence. Why did not they do so? They might not think that highly of their audience. And given the audience reaction, they might not be that wrong in thinking so.

Thank you for posting a more cooperative post this time and thanks for the analysis. I will ass to it a little bit because Pog and pretty much everyone else uses two sided cranks, therefore we need to take into account the pull/push of both legs, so on average maybe 150N are pulled and 450-500N are pushed and obviously the legs switch roles each half revolution. I tired this on my bike and I could not do it but I am no Pog. In any case I was close enough to conclude that Pog could have done it semi-easily. I admit that I had I had a free choice I would have stood up on the pedals.

 

[Tim Cahill]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1917427053386948708

Gianetti editing his own wikipedia page to remove doping incidents.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Ok, let us do some calculations even though anyone who is a cyclist himself would not need any calculations in such a case. But let's assume you are just a fan (of Rog ). We have an estimated 700W at a relatively low cadence. Let's assume 90rpm (actually, not that low, but definitely not super high). 90 rpm is equal to 1.5*6.28 = 9.42 rad/s. So the required torque (assuming it to be constant) is 700/9.42=74 Nm. The required force is then (since Pogo uses 165mm cranks) 74/0.165=450 N or, 45kgf worth of force. That's the force equal to the weight of 45kg mass. Now recall that, if that comes from pedal pushing and not from a motor, then it can't be a constant value. The force applied to a pedal is naturally going to be very low near the top and bottom of a pedal stroke. So to calculate the effective force a pedaller has to apply, we need to introduce a coefficient equal to the proportion of the forward arc where the force can be approximately constant. I'd guess about 0.7. That would make the effective force equal to 45/0.7=64 kgf thus equaling Pogo's body weight. Now, are we going to believe that a person trying to apply a downward force equal to his body weight would not be absolutely compelled to put his weight over the point of said force application? The question is obviously of a rhetorical nature. If the UAE gang wanted to make this believable, then, knowing that the power Pogo+bike system was going to be that much higher than that of the rest. they would have Pogo stand on pedals and increase the cadence. Why did not they do so? They might not think that highly of their audience. And given the audience reaction, they might not be that wrong in thinking so.

Cool story, A for effort. UCI do bicycle checks and never found anything foul with Pogacar's bicycle nor any UAE rider.

Tadej Pogacar’s drug tests and bike X-rays are clean, insists UCI president | Jeremy Whittle

David Lappartient discusses suspicions around the Tour de France champion’s team principal, the return of the Women’s Tour and taking the world championships to Africa

www.theguardian.com

 

[Mayomaniac]

And he insists he didn't do a transfusion the day before, like everyone assumes, right?

He might have transfused 2 days before, having a bad day on La Toussuire right after recharging.

 

[E_F_]

He might have transfused 2 days before, having a bad day on La Toussuire right after recharging.

IIRC he says there wasn't any such simple relationship between that stage and a transfusion. I find it hard to believe.

 

[Cookster15]

Now I see that some forum posters are saying Pogacar uses motor-doping, oblivious to the fact that bicycle checks exist and have existed for a long time.

Some people will believe what they want to believe evidence or not. Like Santa Claus.

 

[Stablo]

Some people will believe what they want to believe evidence or not. Like Santa Claus.

In this case I believe it's the other way around, the ones believing that Tadej doesn't have some clear advantage over the competition, are the ones who believe in miracles/fairytales, just like Santa Claus. What it is then, that's not clear, but this part of the forum is for conversation on that topic. And yes after the past year and a half, theres no way I can be sure that e-assistance was never used. Even the 2020 PDBF TT with coalminer flat and bikechange is suspicious at least. The super fast seated accelarations are out of this planet too, when you in fact need a lot of power to the pedals to make it happen. Other very good riders around him are standing, pushing everything they got and get no where. If this would happen a few times a year, then yes maybe plausible without an advantage in the peds/motor department, but this happens basically every race all around the year. Always nose breathing and fresh as a daisy.

In the sport we are watching just not plausible, no matter how super extra terrestial talented you supposedly are. And Teddy isn't even that much more talented than the competition, there are other generational talents(Poggie wasn't even considered one of them)in the peloton too. I will never be convinced, that Tadej is more than a top5 talent of his generation and even that is a long shot, before the Gianetti/UAE magic was introduced there was basically nothing. The Slovenia is small country, so he never got proper training explanation, doesn't stand water either. Compared to the population they are actually quite a big cycling nation, it's not only Teddy.

Edit. Typo

 

[topcat]

We need to be sensitive to the fact that some forum members still believe in Santi.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

We need to be sensitive to the fact that some forum members still believe in Santi.

I'll always believe in Santi Ascacibar. He gave his all for Hertha! Even though he didn't want to be there.
This must be something akin to Santa Clause, because Santa surely has to go a lot of places which aren't nice to be in, to deliver all these gifts.

But we can maybe take this discussion of Santa as a token of our epistimic milieu in the clinic. Only because there are presents, doesn't mean there's Santa. Both Cleangacar and Pogimoto are build on a lof of fantasy. But that's also the beauty of it. The empirical void we are in when it comes to understand what's going on leaves a lot of room (and necessity) for imagination.

 

[topcat]

 

[Tim Cahill]

Many of us still believe, The Buffalo will return, he's only 52 and should be getting a second wind any day now.

 

[Netserk]

And he insists he didn't do a transfusion the day before, like everyone assumes, right?

It'd be weird to wait with your last bag until the day after Alpe d'Huez. The rest day the day before makes a lot more sense.

Even a doper can bonk for non-doping reasons.

Landis/Kimmage - NYVelocity

The Transcript Paul Kimmage interviewed Floyd Landis a few days before Thanksgiving of ’10. Their 7 hour conversation was distilled into Kimmage’s Sunday Times article published yesterday, meant for a... Read more »

nyvelocity.com

Did that ‘work’?

Did it work? Yeah, the reason that I was not as good in 2005 as I was in 2004 or 2006 was because I had surgery that winter and wasn’t walking for weeks and it took a while to get back in shape. So drugs or no drugs weren’t going to change that. I did the same thing in 2004 and 2005 and 2006; the one variable was that I had my hip issues to deal with and therapy and things like that. I mean, in all of the Tours I did exactly the same amount of blood (transfusing) except the first one (2002); the first one I did one transfusion which is 500 millilitres and the next four I did 1000 militaries each, three separate times in 2006, because it was easier to maintain the continuous blood parameters that were being checked. But it ended up being the same total volume that I added so…yeah, Del Moral, in spite of denying that he ever saw any doping, like everybody does, that was all he really did.

Did you ever do a transfusion that went wrong?

No, not that I know of, sometimes they felt more effective than other times but…the thing about the drugs is; it’s got to the point in the press where they are saying it gives you 40% of an advantage but everything that goes on in the bike race without drugs, goes on in the bike race with drugs. You still have good days and bad days and all the other variables – you didn’t sleep well, you didn’t eat well, you have a good day and a bad day. Anytime you add the drug card they always attribute everything that happened to the drug but they will happen anyway. It just changes how fast you go relative to how fast you would have gone. I don’t know how much, not 40% but it does help. There is no way it doesn’t help.

When did you have the transfusions?

I had one on the night before the first mountain stage and then…here’s what I did; I couldn’t start the Tour with a haematocrit that’s too far out of line, so I waited until after they did the immediate blood checks, to the night before the prologue and then added a 300 ml bag of blood. So I started at (with a haematocrit of) 44 – and it can vary a little but it really wouldn’t call it into question, even if they tested me soon after that – then I did one the night before the first mountain stage, where I got the lead, and then I did one again before the first stage in the Alps. It’s easier if you do it before the hard stages because the harder you ride, the numbers are naturally reduced just from stress hormones and things like that…If I looked at the course profile I could tell you – email me those questions and I can tell you specifically because I have it written down somewhere.

 

[Raest]

Thank you for posting a more cooperative post this time and thanks for the analysis. I will ass to it a little bit because Pog and pretty much everyone else uses two sided cranks, therefore we need to take into account the pull/push of both legs, so on average maybe 150N are pulled and 450-500N are pushed and obviously the legs switch roles each half revolution. I tired this on my bike and I could not do it but I am no Pog. In any case I was close enough to conclude that Pog could have done it semi-easily. I admit that I had I had a free choice I would have stood up on the pedals.

Contrary to popular belief there is very little pull of the crank in the ascending phase of the contralateral (the leg that is not pushing) leg. There is some variation between cyclists but by en large it's the downwards stroke that pushes the contralateral pedal up, not the concentric action of the hamstrings. Actually it's more efficient as avoids muscular co-contraction

 

[Raest]

Cool story, A for effort. UCI do bicycle checks and never found anything foul with Pogacar's bicycle nor any UAE rider.

Tadej Pogacar’s drug tests and bike X-rays are clean, insists UCI president | Jeremy Whittle

David Lappartient discusses suspicions around the Tour de France champion’s team principal, the return of the Women’s Tour and taking the world championships to Africa

www.theguardian.com

Where have I heard this before?
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/verbruggen-says-armstrong-never-never-never-doped/

 

[pelotonIQ]

Where have I heard this before?
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/verbruggen-says-armstrong-never-never-never-doped/

Yet you don't see the nuances between now and then. If we presume he is saying he didn't think Lance was doping because of negative test results then we have to look at how doping controls were back in Lance's era vs today. Today the doping controls are more thorough combined with the biological passport (didn't exist during Lance's doping days), good luck using EPO à la Lance Armstrong.

 

[Raest]

Yet you don't see the nuances between now and then. If we presume he is saying he didn't think Lance was doping because of negative test results then we have to look at how doping controls were back in Lance's era vs today. Today the doping controls are more thorough combined with the biological passport (didn't exist during Lance's doping days), good luck using EPO à la Lance Armstrong.

You don't seem familiar with the Biological Passport and the mountain of evidence that it has completely failed in its purpose. A simple Google search with "biological passport + failed" will help you

 

[pelotonIQ]

You don't seem familiar with the Biological Passport and the mountain of evidence that it has completely failed in its purpose. A simple Google search with "biological passport + failed" will help you

If I understand you correct, you're saying that biological passports are 0% effective in catching dopers and since you brought up Lance Armstrong to the discussion, he used EPO & blood bags which today would have easily been detected with the biological passport.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Let me ask you this @Raest since you accuse & believe Pogacar is doping, how would you go about catching Pogacar if you were in the place of UCI and anti-doping?

Since you're not happy with how anti-doping conducts their tests and you dismiss their results (that Pogacar is clean), how would you do things instead to catch the ''doping monster'' Pogacar.

 

[Raest]

If I understand you correct, you're saying that biological passports are 0% effective in catching dopers and since you brought up Lance Armstrong to the discussion, he used EPO & blood bags which today would have easily been detected with the biological passport.

And corticosteroids and methamphetamices which were the drug of choice in the 60s and 70s would have been easily detected by the anti-doping tests of the 80s. Your point being?

Let me ask you this @Raest since you accuse & believe Pogacar is doping, how would you go about catching Pogacar if you were in the place of UCI and anti-doping?

Since you're not happy with how anti-doping conducts their tests and you dismiss their results (that Pogacar is clean), how would you do things instead to catch the ''doping monster'' Pogacar.

I would start by testing him... Him and his bike(s).

 

[Casual cyclist]

Contrary to popular belief there is very little pull of the crank in the ascending phase of the contralateral (the leg that is not pushing) leg. There is some variation between cyclists but by en large it's the downwards stroke that pushes the contralateral pedal up, not the concentric action of the hamstrings. Actually it's more efficient as avoids muscular co-contraction

I was about to the say the same. But you have said it already. As far as recall, it was found that even top level cyclists just lift the back leg to avoid dead weigh effect, but do not exert any significant pulling effort. But anybody with cycling experience just knows that pulling hard on the back pedal feels unnatural and is actually counterproductive as it can detract from the main effort of pushing which for obvious reasons is much much more effective in max force development. And this is where the weight shifts forward naturally and almost unconsciously. Just look at the guy in pink jersey right behind the motoring away Pogo. He desperately throws his whole weight on the pedals... to no avail, of course.

 

[Ripper]

If I understand you correct, you're saying that biological passports are 0% effective in catching dopers and since you brought up Lance Armstrong to the discussion, he used EPO & blood bags which today would have easily been detected with the biological passport.

I believe the poster inferred the biopassport is highly ineffective, not 0% effective.

Are you aware that microdosing EPO is quite achievable while on the biopassport? And doing so, along with blood bags and altitude training, can obfuscate test results quite well?

 

[Red Rick]

Micro dosing whatever. Seems very hard to believe Plateau de Beille was microdosing.

 

[topcat]

Wow.
Some suspect a motor is in use. Some believe this is too far fetched. Both reasonable views.
But any sane person would believe blood manipulation is going on.