Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[topcat]

Lmao (and I say this as someone with a PhD in mathematics).

 

[topcat]

Let us do a sanity check.

Please don't.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Honestly probably only understood half of that but this discussion really feels like what the internet used to be back when it was good, and what it always should've stayed as. Unbelievable scenes.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

I have to add that the model could be improved here by making the angle be a function of time, but I believe even this constant value is good enough to illustrate my ideas.

This is what it's all about man

 

[dazaau]

Too tired to write a lot myself anymore, but this almost 100%. The winter brake from cycling was good, but this spring was worse than i expected, the hype&mockery on P-R and everything. The attack in Fleche looked as much as an e-assistance that anything can. Im certain like you, that this disgrace team combo has an clear advantage over others peds or some sophisticated motor.
Goodnight and at least Poggie is not racing before Dauphine, phew😅

This narrative does not make sense to me. Armstrong doped, he was also pretty awful about protecting this - as other have poitned out destroying peoples lives in doing so. But here is the thing, he still was only really good at the Tdf and a few other GC events.

Pog is amazing across all terrain. Doped or not, that is insane. Or do you think there is some wonder drug that enables him to ride P-R against the best in the world and stay in contention? Unless Pog has access to a completely game changing wonder drug that no one else has access to what he is doing is amazing, doped or not.

edit: it appears I have responded to a post from ages ago as I am way behind here, the physics is more entertaining

 

[Krzysztof_O]

It's all interesting but why not just ask Teddy to share his power data from the Mur? He's such a nice boy after all.

 

[Red Rick]

Lmao (and I say this as someone with a PhD in mathematics).

Topcat having PhD in mathematics makes 0% and 100% sense at the same time and I fully believe it.

 

[Blobs]

The motor-doping accusations are absurd. How would one go about motor-doping when the bicycles get checked with magnetic resonance devices, tablets with thermal imaging, and X-ray technology to detect hidden motors or other illicit equipment?

The bicycles are scanned pre-race, post-race and the UCI performs random checks based on tip-offs or specific suspicions. As of now, no world-tour team has ever been officially caught for motor-doping. Motor-doping in world tour doesn't exist, but it's still very good that they check for it.


The biological passport was introduced to cycling in 2008. All of your examples mentioned are prior to that date

Verbier was 2009

 

[Netserk]

Topcat having PhD in mathematics makes 0% and 100% sense at the same time and I fully believe it.

what did y'all think topcat meant? vibes? papers? essays?

Topological category - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Red Rick]

what did y'all think topcat meant? vibes? papers? essays?

Topological category - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I thought it referenced a feline individual on top of food chain.

 

[dazaau]

I thought it referenced a feline individual on top of food chain.

Whose profile pic I expect to be a cat wearing a top hat.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

what did y'all think topcat meant? vibes? papers? essays?

Topological category - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As I understand it, there is an inner circle of cognoscenti who are permitted to refer to him simply as T.C.

 

[topcat]

As I understand it, there is an inner circle of cognoscenti who are permitted to refer to him simply as T.C.

Hold on a second. Do mods know my name? Could I be reported to the authorities for brilliant insight and cutting edge analysis?

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Hold on a second. Do mods know my name? Could I be reported to the authorities for brilliant insight and cutting edge analysis?

Those with the special dispensation to use the initialism are, by the same musical contract, obliged only to do so while maintaining the highest standards of decorum.

No, mods do not have access to users' real names, e-mail addresses, or bank accounts.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Once again, the CO-rebreather is and was banned if used to improve abilities. So we have no examples of legal ways of boosting performance.

CO-rebreather method is a diagnostic tool and was allowed to measure tHb-mass but simultaneously the test had a performance enhancing ability.

Let's not forget, people here claim that Pogacar is fully doped/cheating and their primary 'evidence' of that is that he beat 20 year old KOM's. I just wish one of you guys would come up with a plausible theory to what Pogacar is taking and doing when you claim that he is cheating.

 

[Stablo]

Pog is amazing across all terrain. Doped or not, that is insane. Or do you think there is some wonder drug that enables him to ride P-R against the best in the world and stay in contention? Unless Pog has access to a completely game changing wonder drug that no one else has access to what he is doing is amazing, doped or not.

You say the narrative doesn't make any sense to you, when this quote has been exactly my and others main point. It's so insane what he has been doing, that it can't have been achieved without an advantage in peds or other cheating. Year around domination, all terrain and always nose breathing fresh as a daisy. Not to mention he is breaking doped to the gils EPO-era monster records left and right. Even the simple eye test of how for example Pantani&Armstrong looked while making those performances is revealing, they were visually suffering and pushing it to the absolute limit. Then comes Poggie and it's like a sunday ride with friends, after stopping for coffee and cake at some cafeteria. Literally every race he enters.

 

[pastronef]

You say the narrative doesn't make any sense to you, when this quote has been exactly my and others main point. It's so insane what he has been doing, that it can't have been achieved without an advantage in peds or other cheating. Year around domination, all terrain and always nose breathing fresh as a daisy. Not to mention he is breaking doped to the gils EPO-era monster records left and right. Even the simple eye test of how for example Pantani&Armstrong looked while making those performances is revealing, they were visually suffering and pushing it to the absolute limit. Then comes Poggie and it's like a sunday ride with friends, after stopping for coffee and cake at some cafeteria. Literally every race he enters.

check him at 4 km to go in Roubaix. he's literally cooked. check Amstel, cooked

 

[Stablo]

check him at 4 km to go in Roubaix. he's literally cooked. check Amstel, cooked

Well was mostly regarding to the high mountain monster attacks, don't remember Pantani or Armstrong from classics, but I guess exception proves the rule. Just too long efforts and battery ran out. He was also so cooked that finished second anyway, that's the level of absurdity we are witnessing.

 

[Shakes]

He was supposedly cooked. He was still gaining time on everyone except MVDP (PR) and Evenepoel/Skjelmose (AGR). That's not being cooked.

 

[cnort]

Pog is amazing across all terrain. Doped or not, that is insane.

Eddy Merckx is an obvious comparison. But remember too that Bernard Hinault won the Tour de France five times, the Giro three times and the Vuelta twice, and also won Liege-Bastogne-Liege, Tour of Lombardy, Paris-Roubaix, Fleche Wallonne and Amstel Gold Race. Fausto Coppi won the Tour (twice) and Giro (five times), and also Milan San Remo, Tour of Lombardy, Paris-Roubaix and Fleche Wallonne. Or what about Louison Bobet - winner of three Tours and also Milan San Remo, Tour of Lombardy, Tour of Flanders and Paris-Roubaix.

His versatility is not unprecedented. I picked those four above specifically because they have won both the Tour de France and the Paris-Roubaix - but you get the general idea. It is perhaps surprising in the modern era, but in the run up to Roubaix there was a lot of talk of Pogacar jeopardising his Tour chances by riding the race - which I think goes part of the way to explaining why we see so few Tour contenders competing in Roubaix. Obviously a small climber is on a hiding to nothing in Roubaix, but a Tour winner is rarely an out and out climber.

The multi-terrain ability is less worrying to me than the constant on-form status, but maybe people said the same in Merckx's time. Did he ever sit back and chat to his mates in the peloton? [Did he have any mates in the peloton?]

 

[dr.eve]

Eddy Merckx is an obvious comparison. But remember too that Bernard Hinault won the Tour de France five times, the Giro three times and the Vuelta twice, and also won Liege-Bastogne-Liege, Tour of Lombardy, Paris-Roubaix, Fleche Wallonne and Amstel Gold Race. Fausto Coppi won the Tour (twice) and Giro (five times), and also Milan San Remo, Tour of Lombardy, Paris-Roubaix and Fleche Wallonne. Or what about Louison Bobet - winner of three Tours and also Milan San Remo, Tour of Lombardy, Tour of Flanders and Paris-Roubaix.

His versatility is not unprecedented. I picked those four above specifically because they have won both the Tour de France and the Paris-Roubaix - but you get the general idea. It is perhaps surprising in the modern era, but in the run up to Roubaix there was a lot of talk of Pogacar jeopardising his Tour chances by riding the race - which I think goes part of the way to explaining why we see so few Tour contenders competing in Roubaix. Obviously a small climber is on a hiding to nothing in Roubaix, but a Tour winner is rarely an out and out climber.

The multi-terrain ability is less worrying to me than the constant on-form status, but maybe people said the same in Merckx's time. Did he ever sit back and chat to his mates in the peloton? [Did he have any mates in the peloton?]

I agree, i worry most about his constant on-form status.

 

[cnort]

The multi-terrain ability is less worrying to me than the constant on-form status...

On reflection - of you look at the best seasons of riders like Merckx, Maertens and Kelly - they were winning every month of the season, with maybe a three or four week spell out of racing in there somewhere. Maybe we need to take into account that our illustrious Tadej has fewer race days - his palmares give the impression of a higher win rate but is by being more targeted.

None of this helps with the question of whether he rides clean or not, but more to emphasize that his exploits are not unprecedented in cycling - albeit you have look back a bit further in time. Of course, saying he sits comfortably at the high table has connotations of how that is achieved...

 

[Stablo]

Started to think about the Finestre record from Pablo Torres on Tour de l'Avenir last year. The best climb performance by a teenager ever, beating the time of champions like Froome&Contador and quite clearly. Not sure what Pablo's best performance was before that, but since then he has not been even close to that level. Actually this season has been quite bad considering the expectations.

Then to the main point that i started to think.
It really seems like UAE has some sort of super juice or motor that can significally boost your performance and Torres got it on that stage, because the day before was bad for him. The big bosses surely weren't there at Tour de l'Avenir and maybe they weren't allowed to do what they did there. That climb brought Torres/UAE a lot of, propably unwanted attention, cause Poggies season had already started to lift eyebrows. Whatever they did use that day, Torres is not allowed to use anymore hence a lot lower level ever since.
So imho the thing that made the major leap on Pablo's level, is the same juice/motor our main man is using around the year and produces the miraculous seated fresh as a daisy performances.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

On reflection - of you look at the best seasons of riders like Merckx, Maertens and Kelly - they were winning every month of the season, with maybe a three or four week spell out of racing in there somewhere. Maybe we need to take into account that our illustrious Tadej has fewer race days - his palmares give the impression of a higher win rate but is by being more targeted.

None of this helps with the question of whether he rides clean or not, but more to emphasize that his exploits are not unprecedented in cycling - albeit you have look back a bit further in time. Of course, saying he sits comfortably at the high table has connotations of how that is achieved...

That was against the same (nearly exclusively western European) peloton all season. There was no specialization.

 

[cnort]

I see David Walsh has a full page article in The Sunday Times today [behind a paywall], titled "I don't judge Pogacar by past of his boss - but seeing them together makes me wince". It's mostly an overview of Gianetti's murky past (PFC case, Mayo, Ricco, Piepoli, Cobo), leading onto managing Pogacar. For me the telling quote is:

"The more important question, though, is whether Gianetti's presence lessens our trust in Pogacar? I don't believe it should. Certainly for me it doesn't. Pogacar should be judged on what he does."

Yes and no. I suspect that Walsh is no longer interested in doping in cycling. Chasing Armstrong gave him a couple of books and a movie, and he moved on, got pally with Froome, and writes articles on a variety of sports.

It's disappointing in one way, but equally, the only muck thrown at Pogacar that sticks are the bits clinging to his support team. If that is a good measure, then we could not trust any rider. I'd prefer if Walsh had left it open, as in, it's not a good look...