Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Tim Cahill]

Yikes! "Loads of people"?

Since I stopped competitive racing, my direct exposure to dopers has dropped considerably. Are you noticing an impact on these folks you know (positive or negative)?

IPEDs have become completely normalised in Britain in the last 10 or so years, such that I can confidently say a majority of men you see in any given gym will be taking at least something, whether they admit to it or not. You no longer need to approach shady characters on street corners, everything can be purchased online and nobody bats an eyelid (unless you import). Counterintuitively, because 'fake natty' has fallen out of fashion, and people are much more forthright about their cycles, the physical health risks seem to be lessened, because the openness comes with increased awareness around biomarkers and associated dangers. Not many are just mainlining trenbolone until they drop anymore and everyone I know who does serious stuff has bloodwork done. So in that sense the negative impact lessened, most of the side effects just the usual stuff, bit of insomnia, loss of libido, anxiety, acne, headaches etc.

I don't do them myself but long term they will have to watch out for liver, heart injuries and bone-wastage mainly, though I haven't seen any of that myself, maybe if there are any doctors here they can elaborate a bit. The main concern is the body dysmorphia a lot of these guys seem to have, the bigger the people around them get, and the more they perceive social media to be reality the worse it seems to get thus the greater risks they take with PED's. The one in vogue at the moment is people suddenly thinking they need 'TRT' because they heard some 50 year olds talking about it on Joe Rogan. A lad I work with had his test measured through the NHS, came back completely normal and has just convinced himself it's low anyway and started doing it under the counter, I said kid you're 22 and I can guarantee that 'Joe Rogan' and his mates are doing more than TRT.

Like you said though, you only really realise the extent of the problem when you're inside the bubble. Very similar problem with cocaine usage on football matches at the moment (cost of living crisis, cheaper than beer), but I digress.

 

[Ripper]

IPEDs have become completely normalised in Britain in the last 10 or so years, such that I can confidently say a majority of men you see in any given gym will be taking at least something, whether they admit to it or not. You no longer need to approach shady characters on street corners, everything can be purchased online and nobody bats an eyelid (unless you import). Counterintuitively, because 'fake natty' has fallen out of fashion, and people are much more forthright about their cycles, the physical health risks seem to be lessened, because the openness comes with increased awareness around biomarkers and associated dangers. Not many are just mainlining trenbolone until they drop anymore and everyone I know who does serious stuff has bloodwork done. So in that sense the negative impact lessened, most of the side effects just the usual stuff, bit of insomnia, loss of libido, anxiety, acne, headaches etc.

I don't do them myself but long term they will have to watch out for liver, heart injuries and bone-wastage mainly, though I haven't seen any of that myself, maybe if there are any doctors here they can elaborate a bit. The main concern is the body dysmorphia a lot of these guys seem to have, the bigger the people around them get, and the more they perceive social media to be reality the worse it seems to get thus the greater risks they take with PED's. The one in vogue at the moment is people suddenly thinking they need 'TRT' because they heard some 50 year olds talking about it on Joe Rogan. A lad I work with had his test measured through the NHS, came back completely normal and has just convinced himself it's low anyway and started doing it under the counter, I said kid you're 22 and I can guarantee that 'Joe Rogan' and his mates are doing more than TRT.

Like you said though, you only really realise the extent of the problem when you're inside the bubble. Very similar problem with cocaine usage on football matches at the moment (cost of living crisis, cheaper than beer), but I digress.

Cocaine is cheaper than beer!? I live in bizarro times!

 

[noob]

IPEDs have become completely normalised in Britain in the last 10 or so years, such that I can confidently say a majority of men you see in any given gym will be taking at least something, whether they admit to it or not. You no longer need to approach shady characters on street corners, everything can be purchased online and nobody bats an eyelid (unless you import). Counterintuitively, because 'fake natty' has fallen out of fashion, and people are much more forthright about their cycles, the physical health risks seem to be lessened, because the openness comes with increased awareness around biomarkers and associated dangers. Not many are just mainlining trenbolone until they drop anymore and everyone I know who does serious stuff has bloodwork done. So in that sense the negative impact lessened, most of the side effects just the usual stuff, bit of insomnia, loss of libido, anxiety, acne, headaches etc.

I don't do them myself but long term they will have to watch out for liver, heart injuries and bone-wastage mainly, though I haven't seen any of that myself, maybe if there are any doctors here they can elaborate a bit. The main concern is the body dysmorphia a lot of these guys seem to have, the bigger the people around them get, and the more they perceive social media to be reality the worse it seems to get thus the greater risks they take with PED's. The one in vogue at the moment is people suddenly thinking they need 'TRT' because they heard some 50 year olds talking about it on Joe Rogan. A lad I work with had his test measured through the NHS, came back completely normal and has just convinced himself it's low anyway and started doing it under the counter, I said kid you're 22 and I can guarantee that 'Joe Rogan' and his mates are doing more than TRT.

Like you said though, you only really realise the extent of the problem when you're inside the bubble. Very similar problem with cocaine usage on football matches at the moment (cost of living crisis, cheaper than beer), but I digress.

This is shocking. And yet it isn't. So scary.

 

[zlev11]

IPEDs have become completely normalised in Britain in the last 10 or so years, such that I can confidently say a majority of men you see in any given gym will be taking at least something, whether they admit to it or not. You no longer need to approach shady characters on street corners, everything can be purchased online and nobody bats an eyelid (unless you import). Counterintuitively, because 'fake natty' has fallen out of fashion, and people are much more forthright about their cycles, the physical health risks seem to be lessened, because the openness comes with increased awareness around biomarkers and associated dangers. Not many are just mainlining trenbolone until they drop anymore and everyone I know who does serious stuff has bloodwork done. So in that sense the negative impact lessened, most of the side effects just the usual stuff, bit of insomnia, loss of libido, anxiety, acne, headaches etc.

I don't do them myself but long term they will have to watch out for liver, heart injuries and bone-wastage mainly, though I haven't seen any of that myself, maybe if there are any doctors here they can elaborate a bit. The main concern is the body dysmorphia a lot of these guys seem to have, the bigger the people around them get, and the more they perceive social media to be reality the worse it seems to get thus the greater risks they take with PED's. The one in vogue at the moment is people suddenly thinking they need 'TRT' because they heard some 50 year olds talking about it on Joe Rogan. A lad I work with had his test measured through the NHS, came back completely normal and has just convinced himself it's low anyway and started doing it under the counter, I said kid you're 22 and I can guarantee that 'Joe Rogan' and his mates are doing more than TRT.

Like you said though, you only really realise the extent of the problem when you're inside the bubble. Very similar problem with cocaine usage on football matches at the moment (cost of living crisis, cheaper than beer), but I digress.

damn, these guys are getting body dysmorphia from Joe Rogan? that dude looks like a shriveled up hot dog.

 

[Rackham]

So here's a hypothetical for the Pogi fans here (& I mean here in this clinic section, aka fans who know he's juicing it but enjoy his prowess anyway for what it is i.e. "entertainment" and showbiz mostly): in the event Del Toro totally breezes through this final week of the Giro, would his 'exploit' make you feel any different about Pog's achievements? And I mean in the sense it'll make UAE winning look way, way too easy and convenient.

I always felt that Vingegaard's sudden rise for example didn't exactly reflect when on Jumbo at the time. It really smacked of "oh look, we've miraculously conjured up a new toy in our lab out of nowhere, suspension of disbelief required!". It made the whole outfit look highly questionable. Generational talents don't grow on trees... except in pro-cycling of course. Then there's past examples of course like when Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton started competing for GT's at Postal (& Hincapie started winning mountain stages).

 

[pastronef]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1926772072153260401

View: https://x.com/Gold_In_Circuit/status/1926772072153260401

 

[Luthor]

To go from not having a single podium in a WT stage race to leading the Giro and having no issue in 2 weeks despite several decent climbs reeks to me that Del Toro is the next mutant.

For the sake of pro-cycling I hope this guy cracks on week 3 otherwise we're gonna have another farce from UAE. UAE is probably banking on the Mexican fans to shield him.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1926711616889905314

View: https://x.com/triviumcolombia/status/1926711616889905314


Also that insta with Pog saying Del Toro is the future suggests me there is a bigger connection between them even though they haven't raced a lot together. My guess is they take the same thing.

 

[Froome]

To go from not having a single podium in a WT stage race to leading the Giro and having no issue in 2 weeks despite several decent climbs reeks to me that Del Toro is the next mutant.

For the sake of pro-cycling I hope this guy cracks on week 3 otherwise we're gonna have another farce from UAE. UAE is probably banking on the Mexican fans to shield him.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1926711616889905314

View: https://x.com/triviumcolombia/status/1926711616889905314


Also that insta with Pog saying Del Toro is the future suggests me there is a bigger connection between them even though they haven't raced a lot together. My guess is they take the same thing.

Probably they have a lot of connections in dirty things, just like Ricardo Ricco and Piepoli had in the past.

 

[Netserk]

Also that insta with Pog saying Del Toro is the future suggests me there is a bigger connection between them even though they haven't raced a lot together. My guess is they take the same thing.

TikTok Armstrong pulling the string.

 

[DONCA]

To go from not having a single podium in a WT stage race to leading the Giro and having no issue in 2 weeks despite several decent climbs reeks to me that Del Toro is the next mutant.

For the sake of pro-cycling I hope this guy cracks on week 3 otherwise we're gonna have another farce from UAE. UAE is probably banking on the Mexican fans to shield him.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1926711616889905314

View: https://x.com/triviumcolombia/status/1926711616889905314


Also that insta with Pog saying Del Toro is the future suggests me there is a bigger connection between them even though they haven't raced a lot together. My guess is they take the same thing.

I had the same thought. It looks like Del Toro is the next chosen one who gets the little extra "magic".

Both have a very similar style and hardly move their bodies and mostly stay in the saddle while attacking and dropping easily the others. Sometimes they even show no signs of fatigue. It all seems unnatural to me after watching several videos about motor doping. What I also often notice with both are their strange finge movements (not those for shifting Di2). I can't get rid of the thought that they have mechanical help

Especially after knowing that:

-there are not enough and effective controls from the uci for motor doping
-most of the controls with the tables are ***. as the guys doing the controls do it wrong and way too fast to detect something
- new technology cannot be find and there doesn't really seem to be a desire to find anything
-it seems that they want to maintain the image of clean sport
-There are motor manufacturers who have received orders worth millions to work on better motors. Certainly not for private purposes. Some of those motors were delivered to beaulieu-sur-mer next to monaco where pog and many other riders life.

All in all it smells. The inhumane and never-ending attacks. The strange finger movements. No signs of fatigue. Cyclists who can suddenly win any kind of race. The high number of bike changes. It doesn´t seem normal at all.

And what i also don't understand is the big leap in performance that pogacar has made from one day to the next. the self-proclaimed prophet ‘mou’ thinks that it's down to the coach and that pog hasn't done any heat training and proper altitude training under his former coach dr. san millan. that was 2 or 3 years ago. who is so naive as to believe this rubbish? The richest team in the world works with trainers who didn't do any heat training 3 years ago while even almost every amateur knows about it?

If would pay money to see races with pog and the others using the same bikes. But i bet many riders wouldn´t join that race.

Video about the controls and why they fail (french):

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is3faz94Bdg&ab_channel=Francetvsport


CBC Video about hidden motors & pro cycling (probably not new for you guys here)

60 Minutes investigates hidden motors and pro cycling

Bill Whitaker investigates whether pro cyclists have used secret bike motors to win races -- like the Tour de France -- in a sport notorious for its culture of cheating

www.cbsnews.com

Doped bike with engine:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ideiS-6gBAc&ab_channel=MicheleBufalinoCycling

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

So here's a hypothetical for the Pogi fans here (& I mean here in this clinic section, aka fans who know he's juicing it but enjoy his prowess anyway for what it is i.e. "entertainment" and showbiz mostly): in the event Del Toro totally breezes through this final week of the Giro, would his 'exploit' make you feel any different about Pog's achievements? And I mean in the sense it'll make UAE winning look way, way too easy and convenient.

I always felt that Vingegaard's sudden rise for example didn't exactly reflect when on Jumbo at the time. It really smacked of "oh look, we've miraculously conjured up a new toy in our lab out of nowhere, suspension of disbelief required!". It made the whole outfit look highly questionable. Generational talents don't grow on trees... except in pro-cycling of course. Then there's past examples of course like when Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton started competing for GT's at Postal (& Hincapie started winning mountain stages).

It would give the idea that some riders get special treatment (i.e. different more potent stuff whatever that would be) more probability, yet it would be very strange to do this with del Toro, when they want to win the race with Ayuso, who should take his next step now. So far del Toro has the looks of a Pogi mostly because he emulates his riding style. Be at the front, be agressive, be bold etc., and of course because he is strong enough to ride like this. His not really outdoing Carapaz or Bernal on the mountains so far, so I don't see a reason to compare him even to in form Roglic yet. Even if he wins the Giro in the current style.
As for the feeling about Pogacar's achievements: personally I don't know how to feel about them achievement wise. I am unconvinced that UAE is super special, as almost anyones level has gone up considerably over the last years.
But overall the situation is just really hard to judge: we simply don't know if he (or anyone) still had the gap to everyone else without PEDs or not. Since I believe that the problem becomes virulent before most riders turn pro, I also highly doubt that looking at junior results tells us anything in that regard.
What we do know (about the achievements) is that Pogi nuked the strongest Vingegaard so far last year at the Tour. He didn't to that at all the years before. But it's not quite clear how much bad preparation and maybe even the new coach make a difference in that regard.
So I guess in the end I am a bit agnostic about the question of his achievements. In a sport that was always going to attract doping like a super strong magnet and did over it's history the question of "natural" ability is hard to answer, not just now, but in general. We just don't know enough to make any clear assertion on who's the most talented. All we have is times, some performance data and eye tests, the latter being a pretty bad method overall. Like no one is even getting busted anymore (exceptions exist but are rare), and if so not for anything that would explain what's going on in itself.

 

[YellowSocks]

This déjà vu feeling... Same rider, different face.
What was the probability that two super responders to PEDs anybody can buy online come up in the same team?
Does Del Toro still need a refuel on rest days or can he stick to backflips in the pool?
How many of those riders must come out UAE's freaky lab before it raises reasonable questions?

 

[SorelyBoy]

I’m convinced it’s primarily mechanical doping, albeit augmented with a great programme. A great programme can get you in peak condition for a short period of time, but it can’t produce miracles, at least not safely. The body needs rest and recovery at such levels of activity and stress. The evidence is right in front of anyone who chooses to look. The strangely serene and sustained accelerations, the lack of apparent effort on behalf of the rider. The lack of body roll when attacking on steep and cobbled slopes, everything so effortless, seated, while in comparison everyone around them looks as they should do, struggling with every peddle stroke, teeth gritted. The lack of a red zone in the high mountains. You see the initial attack, but then it doesn’t stop, it continues at the same cadence for kilometre after kilometre. If Froome had been doing this in 2015 he’d have been burnt at the stake. And then of course the ability to reproduce the same incredible performance in every race, every stage. No bad days, no understandable reaction to heavy workloads. Like a machine.

 

[Rackham]

It would give the idea that some riders get special treatment (i.e. different more potent stuff whatever that would be) more probability, yet it would be very strange to do this with del Toro, when they want to win the race with Ayuso, who should take his next step now. So far del Toro has the looks of a Pogi mostly because he emulates his riding style. Be at the front, be agressive, be bold etc., and of course because he is strong enough to ride like this. His not really outdoing Carapaz or Bernal on the mountains so far, so I don't see a reason to compare him even to in form Roglic yet. Even if he wins the Giro in the current style.
As for the feeling about Pogacar's achievements: personally I don't know how to feel about them achievement wise. I am unconvinced that UAE is super special, as almost anyones level has gone up considerably over the last years.
But overall the situation is just really hard to judge: we simply don't know if he (or anyone) still had the gap to everyone else without PEDs or not. Since I believe that the problem becomes virulent before most riders turn pro, I also highly doubt that looking at junior results tells us anything in that regard.
What we do know (about the achievements) is that Pogi nuked the strongest Vingegaard so far last year at the Tour. He didn't to that at all the years before. But it's not quite clear how much bad preparation and maybe even the new coach make a difference in that regard.
So I guess in the end I am a bit agnostic about the question of his achievements. In a sport that was always going to attract doping like a super strong magnet and did over it's history the question of "natural" ability is hard to answer, not just now, but in general. We just don't know enough to make any clear assertion on who's the most talented. All we have is times, some performance data and eye tests, the latter being a pretty bad method overall. Like no one is even getting busted anymore (exceptions exist but are rare), and if so not for anything that would explain what's going on in itself.

Based on watching this sport since the 1990's, I think the teams are everything here and the riders are secondary. It means over the decades, Festina, ONCE, Mapei, Banesto, US Postal, Phonak, CSC, Telekom, Saunier Duval, Rabobank, Sky, Astana and now UAE have been 'kingmakers' and are all in the hunt for the best program and the best super responders. UAE right now have the best program. It's pretty obvious to me. But I'm also so very curious to see Vingegaard this summer and I wouldn't be surprised if he's at an absolutely unspeakable level and wins the Tour. It's certainly possible if he's on something similar and it's his turn to make the sort of percentage gains Pog did last year.

But, take away their team doctors, their personal trainers and put them both over at FDJ, I think the result would be hilarious to see.

 

[noob]

Just realised that it makes no sense to think UAE didn't know in advance how good Del Toro would be in this giro so far. If so would he be acting on his own? That doesn't sound likely?

 

[Cookster15]

Then there's past examples of course like when Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton started competing for GT's at Postal (& Hincapie started winning mountain stages).

Floyd's breakthrough was at Phonak. In 2005 Tour he was good enough to follow Armstrong when the GC split into two groups on Port de Pailhères (stage 14). Those two groups on Pailhères were fairly indicative of the haves and have nots in the peloton back then.

As for generational talents, there are people who frequent The Clinic who believe "talent" includes a rider's response to doping. IMO that explains Vingegaard. But Pog rose to prominence at such a young age the line is blurred. Do you hear any rumors or complaints about Pog from other teams and riders? I only sense resignation except from Visma.

To your original point about del Toro at this Giro: Lets not get ahead of ourselves. He has had only one proper MTF and that was a unipuerto MTF. Let's wait for stage 16 to play out. Also in del Toro's favor is the rest day came at the perfect time.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Just realised that it makes no sense to think UAE didn't know in advance how good Del Toro would be in this giro so far. If so would he be acting on his own? That doesn't sound likely?

Maybe they didn't prepare a bag for his 3rd week which is why they are riding for Ayuso, if he tanks 25 minutes tomorrow we will know.

 

[YellowSocks]

Maybe they didn't prepare a bag for his 3rd week which is why they are riding for Ayuso, if he tanks 25 minutes tomorrow we will know.

It took some time to optimise Pogi. Del Toro could also do a 'col de la Loze'.

 

[E_F_]

Pog saying Del Toro is the future

That's some real pro wrestling bullasterisks right there.

 

[E_F_]

There are motor manufacturers who have received orders worth millions to work on better motors. Certainly not for private purposes. Some of those motors were delivered to beaulieu-sur-mer

What companies, and what motors? Can you link to something about it?

 

[Luthor]

Just realised that it makes no sense to think UAE didn't know in advance how good Del Toro would be in this giro so far. If so would he be acting on his own? That doesn't sound likely?

Because they want to make it as a surprise. He was also lucky with the crashes and his ITT is worse than Ayuso.
Del Toro is basically in "test mode" like Pogacar in 2019 and probably they don't know how his body will react to a 3-week effort. Remember the first raid of Pog in 2019 right at the end of Vuelta, that was the first thermonuclear performance of this new doping era. He was incredibly fresh right at the end of a GT.

Del Toro can have the numbers but only super responders can probably be super fresh during a 3rd week. I'm quite sure UAE has already tried it on Ayuso, Almeida or Yates but probably none of them are super responders. If Del Toro doesn't drop on stage 20 we will know he is the next mutant. On pure watts Ayuso looked better than Del Toro but his injury is an issue for UAE.

 

[Rackham]

Floyd's breakthrough was at Phonak. In 2005 Tour he was good enough to follow Armstrong when the GC split into two groups on Port de Pailhères (stage 14). Those two groups on Pailhères were fairly indicative of the haves and have nots in the peloton back then.

As for generational talents, there are people who frequent The Clinic who believe "talent" includes a rider's response to doping. IMO that explains Vingegaard. But Pog rose to prominence at such a young age the line is blurred. Do you hear any rumors or complaints about Pog from other teams and riders? I only sense resignation except from Visma.

To your original point about del Toro at this Giro: Lets not get ahead of ourselves. He has had only one proper MTF and that was a unipuerto MTF. Let's wait for stage 16 to play out. Also in del Toro's favor is the rest day came at the perfect time.

I believe in the concept of first loves. Which in cycling means first come, first served, i.e. which really means people who were bored out of their minds with the Skytrain years suddenly found a 19 year old all-attacking rider called Pog who brought cycling back around full circle to the "good old days" when juiced champions launched massive long rangers.

Pog was the first of the neo-mutants of the 2020's. As such, he got dibs on public opinion. But the constant addition of more ridiculousness (like Vingegaard) and now whatever else UAE have been cooking will absolutely start to create a certain fatigue and lassitude.

It's like people always prefer the originals, like the original Avengers cast, or the original Star Wars heroes. But once the money people start milking the franchise... yeah, it becomes too much. That's how I see it anyway. And there's historical precedence here, i.e. like Armstrong really didn't want Hamilton or Landis winning the Tour. Not just out of selfishness but because their wins would undermine his wins by value of being way, way too obvious; which is pretty much what happened with Landis (particularly when he was busted).

 

[pastronef]

What companies, and what motors? Can you link to something about it?

he probably followed a French docu about motors. hot air

 

[DONCA]

What companies, and what motors? Can you link to something about it?

They mentioned only the name of the engineer: Stephano Varjas but he didn´t tell any names as he wants to protect his customers.

Motors inside the bottom bracket but also motors inside the rear wheel.
I can also highly recommend this podcast:

Ghost in the Machine

Podcast in Wahre Kriminalfälle · “I truly believe that motors were used to win bike races” - Greg LeMond, three-time winner of the Tour de France. In January 2016, 19-year-old Belgian cyclist Femke van den Driessche was caught with a ...

podcasts.apple.com

This is the youtube channel from stephano varjas:

Stefano. Varjas

Teile deine Videos mit Freunden, Verwandten oder der ganzen Welt

www.youtube.com

Videos about Stephano Varjas:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is3faz94Bdg&ab_channel=Francetvsport

https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/98m30x/seven_minute_video_interview_with_infamous

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/98m30x/seven_minute_video_interview_with_infamous/

This one in englisH:

60 Minutes investigates hidden motors and pro cycling

Bill Whitaker investigates whether pro cyclists have used secret bike motors to win races -- like the Tour de France -- in a sport notorious for its culture of cheating

www.cbsnews.com

​

 

[noob]

I believe in the concept of first loves. Which in cycling means first come, first served, i.e. which really means people who were bored out of their minds with the Skytrain years suddenly found a 19 year old all-attacking rider called Pog who brought cycling back around full circle to the "good old days" when juiced champions launched massive long rangers.

Pog was the first of the neo-mutants of the 2020's. As such, he got dibs on public opinion. But the constant addition of more ridiculousness (like Vingegaard) and now whatever else UAE have been cooking will absolutely start to create a certain fatigue and lassitude.

It's like people always prefer the originals, like the original Avengers cast, or the original Star Wars heroes. But once the money people start milking the franchise... yeah, it becomes too much. That's how I see it anyway. And there's historical precedence here, i.e. like Armstrong really didn't want Hamilton or Landis winning the Tour. Not just out of selfishness but because their wins would undermine his wins by value of being way, way too obvious; which is pretty much what happened with Landis (particularly when he was busted).

This analysis might be correct. It's impossible to be too big to fail if everyone is as good eventually.