Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

Page 418 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
repoman said:
Lemond is a weirdo. On some podcast a year or two ago he said anyone with a cadence above 90rpm is doping. He called the French police on Froome when Froome won Ventoux (LOL). Froome's hacked power data revealed he did a mind bending 5.8w/kg. That was the sort of power you needed 10 years ago to win GTs. Now it's 7w/kg.
Lemond said he still has a 7w/kg (???) and 90+ vo2. Guy is a weirdo, seems to have some sort of personality disorder and I wouldn't put it out of possibility that he doped as well but wasn't successful with it and decided to try and pull the house down because of that.
Click to expand...
Lemond 100% doped. You cant win the TDF clean, especially given all his rivals were doped. I doubt he used EPO, but most likely blood doping.
 
As far as what exactly UAE/Pogacar is doing....
I think that San Milan guy's work is maybe worth looking into. I think tampering with blood is too risky these days, but San Milan's area of expertise is in things like mitochondria, insulin, glycogen. It was very strange when this guy was in the media, touting all the "Z2" craze on those scammy supplement podcasters like Huberman and Attia going on about how he is the coach at UAE.
Did anyone who knows anything about cycling actually believe this guy, who had no experience as a coach in cycling, much less professional cycling was now the coach at the most currently stacked cycling team? He was brought on to UAE to study some biological values, obviously in his area of expertise of mitochondria, energy storage, use. I don't think it's too much of a stretch that he formulates some sort of program in this area for UAE, possibly using illicit methods and then gets a bunch of publicity in return to sell his book with this stupid Z2 bullsh-t.
 
dr.eve said:
Oh I am sure it is possible, yet not a feasible explanation for everything Pogacar does. But hey that's just my opinion and I can be wrong. I believe Pogacar and his team are cheating, but I am unsure about what way, though many possibilities are there.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I am of the same mind. I don't know what they're doing, but I know they're doing. I do believe Visma used motors. I am convinced Wout used them in 2016, and why not keep using them if they worked, and let everyone else in on the fun?

Also, yes, Lemond is a strange guy, but what he showed Froome doing, defied logic, and I do believe pointed to a motor.
 
A motor is a rather easily discoverable physical object. It would be tangible and inarguable on discovery, that's very different to PEDs. The notion that these are being successfully hidden is pretty ridiculous. Motors are noisy and produce heat, they do check these bikes with portable X-ray and FLIR cameras very often.
I think doping riders rationalize doping with the idea in their head that everyone else is doing it, motors are a completely different area to occupy in the psychological space in terms of motives...it's just not relatable on a large scale IMO and would require a much larger conspiracy than doping with use of things like PEDs (which is more often than not a rider doing it by himself unbeknownst to the team). You can't do that with motors. Extremely discrete and relatively powerful motors (for the size needed to approach the realm of being able to be hidden) beyond what is available on the market would take a massive investment in R n D to produce and implement and you still have them as discoverable physical objects. PEDs are far more difficult to detect and even harder to prove and they are also cheap.
 
Last edited:
repoman said:
A motor is a rather easily discoverable physical object. It would be tangible and inarguable on discovery, that's very different to PEDs. The notion that these are being successfully hidden is pretty ridiculous. Motors are noisy and produce heat, they do check these bikes with portable X-ray and FLIR cameras very often.
I think doping riders rationalize doping with the idea in their head that everyone else is doing it, motors are a completely different area to occupy in the psychological space in terms of motives...it's just not relatable on a large scale IMO and would require a much larger conspiracy than doping with use of things like PEDs (which is more often than not a rider doing it by himself unbeknownst to the team). You can't do that with motors. Extremely discrete and relatively powerful motors (for the size needed to approach the realm of being able to be hidden) beyond what is available on the market would take a massive investment in R n D to produce and implement and you still have them as discoverable physical objects. PEDs are far more difficult to detect and even harder to prove and they are also cheap.
Click to expand...
You are talking about old and cheap technology. The technology is so advanced that it is becoming increasingly difficult to find anything. Modern motors are tiny, subtle, and powerful. One of the inventors said already in the early 2000s that some of his motors are impossible to find. So imagine what could be possible in 2025. Think about what's possible in 2025, especially for teams that own their own bike brand like UAE with Colnago.

To find motors you need someone who really wants to find them. Who is checking for the motors?
The UCI is doing the testing itself, eerily reminiscent of its failed approach to anti-doping in the 1990s. Why isn’t an independent body in charge of scanning for illicit motors? And why does the UCI not let anyone see images of the x-ray scans? It must also be said that the X Ray scans are not carried out often enough. The most frequent checks are still carried out with the tablets. But this type of test is a joke.

Without transparency, it’s impossible to be convinced that the UCI has a grip on the threat.

Does the UCI want to have another scandal? Do they benefit from a Pogacar with a motor in his bike?
No. A new scandal would be the end of cycling. The UCI would destroy its own business. Do you really think that's what they want? Governing bodies are terrified of the fallout. Maybe this is also the reason why only the UCI is in charge of scanning for motors. It´s about control.

Are the UCI's controls sufficient?
The UCI claims that they test at every women’s and men WorldTour race.
But this is not the reality. The UCI’s testing is highly inconsistent.
For example, the world governing body didn’t test a single bike in the 2023 Giro d’Italia’s first two time trials, and at the Vuelta España, the x-ray machine – described as their best weapon against mechanical fraud – wasn’t used until the final week.

Many cycling insiders, from UCI presidents and Tour de France winners to staff members of national governing bodies and mechanics, have indicated, either explicitly or implicitly, that they believe hidden motors have been used at the top level of the sport. These statements should be taken seriously.

Especially at a time when we see performances that simply can no longer be explained.
You only have to take a closer look at Pogacar's abnormal attacks. Be it on the Mur de huy, where he outsprinted his rivals seated and didn't even look tired when he crossed the finish line. Even Cancellara couldn't manage that. Or all the other attacks by him seated where he opened huge gaps in a matter of seconds while the rest was dying out of the saddle. Or that even as a lightweight he can win flat races and keep up with riders like Van der Poel, even though they must have a much higher FTP. You can and should doubt that.
 
topt said:
[deleted content]
Click to expand...
When I comment, I express an opinion and one which I hope is an informed one. I don't attack people personally, but I might express a different opinion to them. When I comment I also give reasons for it. I use my understanding of the sport after 50 years of watching and following it, of what I see with my own eyes, of human nature, of human sporting performance, and also historical precedent. And when I do that and I look at Pogacar and also (and this is a crucial part of the puzzle), his association with Gianetti, I don't believe what I'm seeing is real. If you feel differently, good for you.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
ChewbaccaDefense said:
It's even stranger to me that there is a segment who believes that cyclists have no qualms about sticking needles in their arms to gain an advantage, or alter their genes, but wouldn't use an undetectable motor?
Click to expand...
You can't blame a contaminated steak, food supplement or a rare illness for the appearance of a motor in your bike.
 
Last edited:
ChewbaccaDefense said:
It's even stranger to me that there is a segment who believes that cyclists have no qualms about sticking needles in their arms to gain an advantage, or alter their genes, but wouldn't use an undetectable motor?
Click to expand...
How would you construct an undetectable motor that evades current anti-cheating measures (magnetic, thermal. X-ray and manual inspection)? You could seriously win the nobel prize if such feat is achieved.
 
pelotonIQ said:
How would you construct an undetectable motor that evades current anti-cheating measures (magnetic, thermal. X-ray and manual inspection)? You could seriously win the nobel prize if such feat is achieved.
Click to expand...
It's not that difficult. If you have access to the inspection technology you can build something that is not visible as the methods have blind spots. Cheating is difficult with thorough manual inspections unless you know the procedure (and it's not a complete dissassembly) or you can manipulate those that inspect. Regarding the procedure: the UCI has given detailed insights how they do it but obviously a team like UAE will know much more details than we will ever know.
 
peterfin said:
It's not that difficult. If you have access to the inspection technology you can build something that is not visible as the methods have blind spots. Cheating is difficult with thorough manual inspections unless you know the procedure (and it's not a complete dissassembly) or you can manipulate those that inspect. Regarding the procedure: the UCI has given detailed insights how they do it but obviously a team like UAE will know much more details than we will ever know.
Click to expand...
Can you explain how? Do you have a theory? I'm curious to know the thought process behind such claims.
 
repoman said:
A motor is a rather easily discoverable physical object. It would be tangible and inarguable on discovery, that's very different to PEDs. The notion that these are being successfully hidden is pretty ridiculous. Motors are noisy and produce heat, they do check these bikes with portable X-ray and FLIR cameras very often.
I think doping riders rationalize doping with the idea in their head that everyone else is doing it, motors are a completely different area to occupy in the psychological space in terms of motives...it's just not relatable on a large scale IMO and would require a much larger conspiracy than doping with use of things like PEDs (which is more often than not a rider doing it by himself unbeknownst to the team). You can't do that with motors. Extremely discrete and relatively powerful motors (for the size needed to approach the realm of being able to be hidden) beyond what is available on the market would take a massive investment in R n D to produce and implement and you still have them as discoverable physical objects. PEDs are far more difficult to detect and even harder to prove and they are also cheap.
Click to expand...

DONCA said:
You are talking about old and cheap technology. The technology is so advanced that it is becoming increasingly difficult to find anything. Modern motors are tiny, subtle, and powerful. One of the inventors said already in the early 2000s that some of his motors are impossible to find. So imagine what could be possible in 2025. Think about what's possible in 2025, especially for teams that own their own bike brand like UAE with Colnago.

To find motors you need someone who really wants to find them. Who is checking for the motors?
The UCI is doing the testing itself, eerily reminiscent of its failed approach to anti-doping in the 1990s. Why isn’t an independent body in charge of scanning for illicit motors? And why does the UCI not let anyone see images of the x-ray scans? It must also be said that the X Ray scans are not carried out often enough. The most frequent checks are still carried out with the tablets. But this type of test is a joke.

Without transparency, it’s impossible to be convinced that the UCI has a grip on the threat.

Does the UCI want to have another scandal? Do they benefit from a Pogacar with a motor in his bike?
No. A new scandal would be the end of cycling. The UCI would destroy its own business. Do you really think that's what they want? Governing bodies are terrified of the fallout. Maybe this is also the reason why only the UCI is in charge of scanning for motors. It´s about control.
Click to expand...
I don't disagree with either of the posts exactly but my thinking is closer to repoman's. Six months ago I would laugh at any suggestion of teams using motors, I am now more open to the idea, however, remain highly skeptical not so much cause I trust the moral compass of the teams/cyclists but because it would require active and conscious UCI participation and cover up.
I won't dispute that the tests are inadequate and that no one really knows how often (and on who) they are applied but a motor, and despite claims of undetectable motors I haven't seen one that doesn't produce either heat or electromagnetic field or both, IS detectable and lot easier to detect than PEDs. Forget tablets and X-Ray machines, all it takes is for a mechanic to strip the bike and UCI has the power to enforce that if they think it's needed. The results of a positive finding cannot be disputed (unlike PED adverse findings).
Therefore, if motors are used are with the implicit (or explicit) permission of the UCI which would make its officials liable for prosecution. It's just too big of a risk. It's far more likely that whatever they are doing is of chemical rather than mechanical nature

Edit: Personally I think that a repeat of the US Postal/Discovery case is far more likely.
Unscrupulous team management, a highly unscrupulous sponsor and the biggest budget in cycling.
Blood doping enhances performance by 10-12% (anecdotally though many sources have claimed the same range, e.g. Armstrong), let's accept that training and nutrition have progressed since the late 00s to the point that they can account for another 3% increase in performance and an FTP of 6-6.1 Watts/kg can go up to, and exceed, 7 W/kg. No motors involved.
 
Last edited:
pelotonIQ said:
Can you explain how? Do you have a theory? I'm curious to know the thought process behind such claims.
Click to expand...
Thermal imagers are obviously rubish. Heat dissipation can be managed with materials and there is a time constant as well. The motor will not be on when the rider crosses the line. You need to catch them while riding but there is heat everywhere and the motors are small (20 watts). Magnetic imagers have really bad resolution and a bike is full of material that clouds the picture. So basically you are looking at a deviation from a signature but if you have access to the imaging tech you can manipulate the signature so it falls within the error bounds. X-ray see more details but have limits as well. Some Parts cannot be penetrated and they cloud the view depending on how you do the imaging. If you know the procedure and the technology, you can work with that and ensure that it falls within the error bounds of the expected view. The X-ray is obviously the biggest challenge but people like challenges if much can be gained.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts

Moderators online

Share this page

Back
Top