Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Raest]

A motor is a rather easily discoverable physical object. It would be tangible and inarguable on discovery, that's very different to PEDs. The notion that these are being successfully hidden is pretty ridiculous. Motors are noisy and produce heat, they do check these bikes with portable X-ray and FLIR cameras very often.
I think doping riders rationalize doping with the idea in their head that everyone else is doing it, motors are a completely different area to occupy in the psychological space in terms of motives...it's just not relatable on a large scale IMO and would require a much larger conspiracy than doping with use of things like PEDs (which is more often than not a rider doing it by himself unbeknownst to the team). You can't do that with motors. Extremely discrete and relatively powerful motors (for the size needed to approach the realm of being able to be hidden) beyond what is available on the market would take a massive investment in R n D to produce and implement and you still have them as discoverable physical objects. PEDs are far more difficult to detect and even harder to prove and they are also cheap.

You are talking about old and cheap technology. The technology is so advanced that it is becoming increasingly difficult to find anything. Modern motors are tiny, subtle, and powerful. One of the inventors said already in the early 2000s that some of his motors are impossible to find. So imagine what could be possible in 2025. Think about what's possible in 2025, especially for teams that own their own bike brand like UAE with Colnago.

To find motors you need someone who really wants to find them. Who is checking for the motors?
The UCI is doing the testing itself, eerily reminiscent of its failed approach to anti-doping in the 1990s. Why isn’t an independent body in charge of scanning for illicit motors? And why does the UCI not let anyone see images of the x-ray scans? It must also be said that the X Ray scans are not carried out often enough. The most frequent checks are still carried out with the tablets. But this type of test is a joke.

Without transparency, it’s impossible to be convinced that the UCI has a grip on the threat.

Does the UCI want to have another scandal? Do they benefit from a Pogacar with a motor in his bike?
No. A new scandal would be the end of cycling. The UCI would destroy its own business. Do you really think that's what they want? Governing bodies are terrified of the fallout. Maybe this is also the reason why only the UCI is in charge of scanning for motors. It´s about control.

I don't disagree with either of the posts exactly but my thinking is closer to repoman's. Six months ago I would laugh at any suggestion of teams using motors, I am now more open to the idea, however, remain highly skeptical not so much cause I trust the moral compass of the teams/cyclists but because it would require active and conscious UCI participation and cover up.
I won't dispute that the tests are inadequate and that no one really knows how often (and on who) they are applied but a motor, and despite claims of undetectable motors I haven't seen one that doesn't produce either heat or electromagnetic field or both, IS detectable and lot easier to detect than PEDs. Forget tablets and X-Ray machines, all it takes is for a mechanic to strip the bike and UCI has the power to enforce that if they think it's needed. The results of a positive finding cannot be disputed (unlike PED adverse findings).
Therefore, if motors are used are with the implicit (or explicit) permission of the UCI which would make its officials liable for prosecution. It's just too big of a risk. It's far more likely that whatever they are doing is of chemical rather than mechanical nature

Edit: Personally I think that a repeat of the US Postal/Discovery case is far more likely.
Unscrupulous team management, a highly unscrupulous sponsor and the biggest budget in cycling.
Blood doping enhances performance by 10-12% (anecdotally though many sources have claimed the same range, e.g. Armstrong), let's accept that training and nutrition have progressed since the late 00s to the point that they can account for another 3% increase in performance and an FTP of 6-6.1 Watts/kg can go up to, and exceed, 7 W/kg. No motors involved.

 

[peterfin]

Can you explain how? Do you have a theory? I'm curious to know the thought process behind such claims.

Thermal imagers are obviously rubish. Heat dissipation can be managed with materials and there is a time constant as well. The motor will not be on when the rider crosses the line. You need to catch them while riding but there is heat everywhere and the motors are small (20 watts). Magnetic imagers have really bad resolution and a bike is full of material that clouds the picture. So basically you are looking at a deviation from a signature but if you have access to the imaging tech you can manipulate the signature so it falls within the error bounds. X-ray see more details but have limits as well. Some Parts cannot be penetrated and they cloud the view depending on how you do the imaging. If you know the procedure and the technology, you can work with that and ensure that it falls within the error bounds of the expected view. The X-ray is obviously the biggest challenge but people like challenges if much can be gained.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Thermal imagers are obviously rubish. Heat dissipation can be managed with materials and there is a time constant as well. The motor will not be on when the rider crosses the line. You need to catch them while riding but there is heat everywhere and the motors are small (20 watts). Magnetic imagers have really bad resolution and a bike is full of material that clouds the picture. So basically you are looking at a deviation from a signature but if you have access to the imaging tech you can manipulate the signature so it falls within the error bounds. X-ray see more details but have limits as well. Some Parts cannot be penetrated and they cloud the view depending on how you do the imaging. If you know the procedure and the technology, you can work with that and ensure that it falls within the error bounds of the expected view. The X-ray is obviously the biggest challenge but people like challenges if much can be gained.

UCI uses X-ray imaging from multiple angles which they compare to known clean bikes from the same model. If something is unusual the bike can be flagged for further inspection. I don't think any team would go through this super risky engineering endeavour of trying to motor dope for a measly ''20 watts'' when the consequences are severe when you get caught from which you have no escape. Keep in mind that Pogacar is world #1, all eyes are on him, anti-doping/cheating are monitoring him more than anyone. The idea that Pogacar is motor doping is beyond realistic.

 

[peterfin]

UCI uses X-ray imaging from multiple angles which they compare to known clean bikes from the same model. If something is unusual the bike can be flagged for further inspection. I don't think any team would go through this super risky engineering endeavour of trying to motor dope for a measly ''20 watts'' when the consequences are severe when you get caught from which you have no escape.

I would think the same but remember that it is that measly 20 watts that makes all the difference and it comes from a setup that weights a few tens of grams.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

I don't believe in a motor hypothesis. Some kind of blood doping would be much more in line with previous activities of Gianetti and Matxin. I can understand that Gianetti feels invulnerable. He wasn't suspended for his experiments on himself in 1998, nor for the doping cases of Ricco and Piepoli and it took 8 years for Cobo to lose his Vuelta. It was a matter of time until he would get it right.

 

[kingjr]

I never claimed they were used frequently, here I said that if a bike gets flagged it will be inspected further and so what if the picture is from 2018, mobile X-ray machines are still used/available today.

If only you read my posts from the beginning of the reply chain.

They way you put it in the bolded section, it sounds like the UCI first uses X-ray imaging and then, if something is unusual, the bike "can" (odd phrasing imo) be flagged for further inspection.
15 minutes ago, however, you said "When a bicycle get's flagged it goes into the X-ray machine". So which is it, exactly? Or what am I missing?

 

[pelotonIQ]

They way you put it in the bolded section, it sounds like the UCI first uses X-ray imaging and then, if something is unusual, the bike "can" (odd phrasing imo) be flagged for further inspection.
15 minutes ago, however, you said "When a bicycle get's flagged it goes into the X-ray machine". So which is it, exactly? Or what am I missing?

There are different types of X-ray screening methods.

 

[Lorzenz08]

Right... the stage race that he won after he signed with UAE, in which he didn't win a single stage and which was also won by other unbeatable monsters like Jan Bakelants and Romain Siccard.
Yeah, that explains his rise.

That's the same guy who couldn't beat legendary Slovenian rider Isidor Penko in the European ITT that same year where he finished... 16th.

Generational talent

Yes Tour de l'Avenir is the most famous stage race in the world for non-pro. This is the Tour de France for semi-pro.

And yes he was so un professional that he had many bad days.

Biggest generational talent since day 1.

 

[Lorzenz08]

I think it's a bit harsh calling his 2017-18 as hit and miss. He won the biggest junior race in the world, while riding for a very small team. Of course his TTing and general level is going to take a big step up when he leaves a CT to join a World Tour team with much better coaching, facilities and equipment.

Exactly.

 

[Lorzenz08]

I only cherry pick results because people continue to claim that this guy is so exceptionally talented. Sorry, no. There are exceptions, but most top riders show their exceptional talent at a very young age and at least in the specific discipline they excel in. Pogacars ridiculous time trial on La Plance de Belles Filles in 202 remains a prime example. Where was his pre-UAE ITT talent? I can't find it. In nearly all other riders, it showed at a very young age: Evenepoel, Ganna, McNulty, Tarling, Armirail, Plapp...

He was riding for a small team, and physically it is very obvious he was under developed.

 

[pelotonIQ]

No, there aren't. "X-ray" is a specific technology, and also one that has major drawbacks. The do not make ipads with x-ray technology...and what would you say if I told you that the UCI uses ipads, and a technology in the ipads, that wasn't developed for detecting motors...because that's realy. You can like it or not.

I was talking about different methods. You're opening up a totally new and different subject that has nothing to do with what I wrote when you're talking about X-ray technology.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

I was talking about different methods. You're opening up a totally new and different subject that has nothing to do with what I wrote when you're talking about X-ray technology.

You are the one who brought up x-rays. I didn't. The predominany technology used is not x-rays, and wasn't a technology that was developed specifically for the purpose of detecting motors in bikes. That is one of the main problems with the UCI's detection methods. If you listen to the podcast, and read up on the subject, you will understand exactly why.

 

[Lorzenz08]

Top fitness levels generally run in cycles and rhythms. Highs or peaks, followed by lows. I first noticed high levels of performance throughout the year with Said Aouita in the 1980's. He was an exceptional talent who later admitted to doping. It was shocking to see him running at world record level from April through to October. Pogacar is also doing this and it doesn't align with basic human physiology.

You could give Pantani as much doping as you want he would never come close to winning Paris Roubaix.

No matter how you look at it, Pogacar is still the GOAT.

 

[Divergence]

The late 80s is a long time ago, but numbers-wise we have some info as to what GC racing did look like before serious oxygen vector doping.

Lemond had a vo2max in the low nineties (and let the world know about it, too), but couldn't break 6w/kg on long climbs. He trained in a fairly modern way too and was not about just miles on miles. Once EPO came, he became an also ran as riders began posting 6+ just like that.

Of course a proportion of the difference can be explained by equipment an France dynamics. But not all. WRs jumped in other endurance sports with the advent of epo too.

Moreover the talent argument is made as though it's about absolutes. But talent is relative to the institutional obstacle course that regulates cycling prep during a given period. Being a responder to whatever is possible to get away with is a "talent", although people evoking talent mean something more. And if one takes a further cynical step, being marketable is too.

As I've said several times, when the w/kg calculations became a thing physiologists of several persuasions were of the opinion that around 6w/kg for long 35-45min efforts is where somewhat plausible ends.

This is just not true. Panyagua people with 12h of weekly training have done about 5.8W/kg for 30min. The top pros could certainly do more panyagua.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

This will end badly, but when?

A french journal article
Excerpts:
‘It's all going to end badly, but when?’ says a team manager whose identity is best kept under wraps. Because the "milieu" is uncompromising and doesn't like people spitting in the soup. The slightest critical remark can have consequences. But in the intimacy of the bus, tongues are loosened. ‘If he'd wanted to beat Bjarne Riis's record in Hautacam, he'd have taken it, but he sat up in the last two kilometres,’ adds this team manager who witnessed the arrival of EPO in the peloton in the early 1990s. "Today, the authorities are embarrassed, they don't know what to do." Cheaters have always been one step ahead. And the fight against doping seems outdated, behind the times or resigned.

What bothers me are the attacks at the foot of the climbs, we haven't seen that since my time," says Sandy Casar, winner of three stages in the Tour de France in the late 2000s. In other words, when Lance Armstrong was flying. Pogacar was sure of himself. In Hautacam, he wasn't worried about being thwarted when he set off from so far away. And he followed that up in the Peyragudes time trial and then controlled Superbagnères. Vingegaard is not without merit, but then again...".

 

[Ripper]

This will end badly, but when?

A french journal article
Excerpts:
‘It's all going to end badly, but when?’ says a team manager whose identity is best kept under wraps. Because the "milieu" is uncompromising and doesn't like people spitting in the soup. The slightest critical remark can have consequences. But in the intimacy of the bus, tongues are loosened. ‘If he'd wanted to beat Bjarne Riis's record in Hautacam, he'd have taken it, but he sat up in the last two kilometres,’ adds this team manager who witnessed the arrival of EPO in the peloton in the early 1990s. "Today, the authorities are embarrassed, they don't know what to do." Cheaters have always been one step ahead. And the fight against doping seems outdated, behind the times or resigned.

What bothers me are the attacks at the foot of the climbs, we haven't seen that since my time," says Sandy Casar, winner of three stages in the Tour de France in the late 2000s. In other words, when Lance Armstrong was flying. Pogacar was sure of himself. In Hautacam, he wasn't worried about being thwarted when he set off from so far away. And he followed that up in the Peyragudes time trial and then controlled Superbagnères. Vingegaard is not without merit, but then again...".

If that is legit team manager quoting going on, that is pretty interesting. As for Casar, he had up close and personal view of the damage doping did, so I am happy he is sharing his concerns.

 

[repoman]

Really want to read that article but it's paywalled.

 

[Ripper]

Really want to read that article but it's paywalled.

I don't think there is much more. Here is a link to what appears to be the same piece, but different publication and no paywall

Tour de France: "On ne voyait plus cela depuis mon époque", les langues se délient autour des performances de Pogacar

Étincelant sur le Tour de France, avec quatre victoires, Tadej Pogacar admire autant qu'il interroge. Ses performances sont scrutées et parfois critiquées, à l'heure où les soupçons grandissent.

rmcsport.bfmtv.com

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Really want to read that article but it's paywalled.

There isn't much more, i've given the juicier bits, but you can use archive.is if you want the complete piece

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

He was riding for a small team, and physically it is very obvious he was under developed.

He already signed for UAE the same year. Remember Pablo Torres last year? Signed for UAE in 2024 and put almost 4 minutes on Blackmore on the Finestre.
It's a miracle!

 

[DONCA]

This will end badly, but when?

A french journal article
Excerpts:
‘It's all going to end badly, but when?’ says a team manager whose identity is best kept under wraps. Because the "milieu" is uncompromising and doesn't like people spitting in the soup. The slightest critical remark can have consequences. But in the intimacy of the bus, tongues are loosened. ‘If he'd wanted to beat Bjarne Riis's record in Hautacam, he'd have taken it, but he sat up in the last two kilometres,’ adds this team manager who witnessed the arrival of EPO in the peloton in the early 1990s. "Today, the authorities are embarrassed, they don't know what to do." Cheaters have always been one step ahead. And the fight against doping seems outdated, behind the times or resigned.

What bothers me are the attacks at the foot of the climbs, we haven't seen that since my time," says Sandy Casar, winner of three stages in the Tour de France in the late 2000s. In other words, when Lance Armstrong was flying. Pogacar was sure of himself. In Hautacam, he wasn't worried about being thwarted when he set off from so far away. And he followed that up in the Peyragudes time trial and then controlled Superbagnères. Vingegaard is not without merit, but then again...".

Those attacks are just insane and on top most of them are done "easily" seated. Some of them look much worse then the Femke van de Drieesche or Cancellara one. Yes, conspiracy conspiracy.....

Dopacar is so sure of himself because he knows he can rely on something that other riders don't have. Without this he wouldn´t do all the classics and more than 1 grand tour + wc. Without this he would get also tired like everyone else. But no, this guy is not normal thats why he can race also against the big guys with a much higher ftp than him.

How can one physically explain this? How is it possible that a much lighter guy can almost beat a rider like vdp with a much higher ftp on a flat course? It´s not possible.

Dopacars biggest problem is to hold back and to make the obvious thing (that he is cheating) not to obvious.
And he is almost doing a great job. Since people were complaining about his seated nuclear attacks he sometimes goes out of the saddle and sometimes he breathes a breathes with his mouth open

 

[Lorzenz08]

He already signed for UAE the same year. Remember Pablo Torres last year? Signed for UAE in 2024 and put almost 4 minutes on Blackmore on the Finestre.
It's a miracle!

He signed for UAE in August 2018 after having won Tour de l'Avenir

 

[Lorzenz08]

Those attacks are just insane and on top most of them are done "easily" seated. Some of them look much worse then the Femke van de Drieesche or Cancellara one. Yes, conspiracy conspiracy.....

Dopacar is so sure of himself because he knows he can rely on something that other riders don't have. Without this he wouldn´t do all the classics and more than 1 grand tour + wc. Without this he would get also tired like everyone else. But no, this guy is not normal thats why he can race also against the big guys with a much higher ftp than him.

How can one physically explain this? How is it possible that a much lighter guy can almost beat a rider like vdp with a much higher ftp on a flat course? It´s not possible.

Dopacars biggest problem is to hold back and to make the obvious thing (that he is cheating) not to obvious.
And he is almost doing a great job. Since people were complaining about his seated nuclear attacks he sometimes goes out of the saddle and sometimes he breathes a breathes with his mouth open

Because he is the most talented cyclist rider that ever walked this earth in addition to other things.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

Anyone want to hazard the percentage chance that Pogacar will win all 3 jerseys (I don't count the young rider jersey) and 6+ stages when this is all said and done? Feels like it's at least 30%+ at this point.

 

[topt]

They way you put it in the bolded section, it sounds like the UCI first uses X-ray imaging and then, if something is unusual, the bike "can" (odd phrasing imo) be flagged for further inspection.
15 minutes ago, however, you said "When a bicycle get's flagged it goes into the X-ray machine". So which is it, exactly? Or what am I missing?

every winning bike goes in to X ray, wont matter to some posters here, so why we even bother with reality