Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[kingjr]

The late 80s is a long time ago, but numbers-wise we have some info as to what GC racing did look like before serious oxygen vector doping.

Lemond had a vo2max in the low nineties (and let the world know about it, too), but couldn't break 6w/kg on long climbs. He trained in a fairly modern way too and was not about just miles on miles. Once EPO came, he became an also ran as riders began posting 6+ just like that.

Of course a proportion of the difference can be explained by equipment an France dynamics. But not all. WRs jumped in other endurance sports with the advent of epo too.

Moreover the talent argument is made as though it's about absolutes. But talent is relative to the institutional obstacle course that regulates cycling prep during a given period. Being a responder to whatever is possible to get away with is a "talent", although people evoking talent mean something more. And if one takes a further cynical step, being marketable is too.

As I've said several times, when the w/kg calculations became a thing physiologists of several persuasions were of the opinion that around 6w/kg for long 35-45min efforts is where somewhat plausible ends.

Lemond also rode with an absurdly low cadence, even for his era.

 

[repoman]

Lemond is a weirdo. On some podcast a year or two ago he said anyone with a cadence above 90rpm is doping. He called the French police on Froome when Froome won Ventoux (LOL). Froome's hacked power data revealed he did a mind bending 5.8w/kg. That was the sort of power you needed 10 years ago to win GTs. Now it's 7w/kg.
Lemond said he still has a 7w/kg (???) and 90+ vo2. Guy is a weirdo, seems to have some sort of personality disorder and I wouldn't put it out of possibility that he doped as well but wasn't successful with it and decided to try and pull the house down because of that.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Lemond is a weirdo. On some podcast a year or two ago he said anyone with a cadence above 90rpm is doping. He called the French police on Froome when Froome won Ventoux (LOL). Froome's hacked power data revealed he did a mind bending 5.8w/kg. That was the sort of power you needed 10 years ago to win GTs. Now it's 7w/kg.
Lemond said he still has a 7w/kg (???) and 90+ vo2. Guy is a weirdo, seems to have some sort of personality disorder and I wouldn't put it out of possibility that he doped as well but wasn't successful with it and decided to try and pull the house down because of that.

Lemond 100% doped. You cant win the TDF clean, especially given all his rivals were doped. I doubt he used EPO, but most likely blood doping.

 

[repoman]

As far as what exactly UAE/Pogacar is doing....
I think that San Milan guy's work is maybe worth looking into. I think tampering with blood is too risky these days, but San Milan's area of expertise is in things like mitochondria, insulin, glycogen. It was very strange when this guy was in the media, touting all the "Z2" craze on those scammy supplement podcasters like Huberman and Attia going on about how he is the coach at UAE.
Did anyone who knows anything about cycling actually believe this guy, who had no experience as a coach in cycling, much less professional cycling was now the coach at the most currently stacked cycling team? He was brought on to UAE to study some biological values, obviously in his area of expertise of mitochondria, energy storage, use. I don't think it's too much of a stretch that he formulates some sort of program in this area for UAE, possibly using illicit methods and then gets a bunch of publicity in return to sell his book with this stupid Z2 bullsh-t.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Jumbo left for own reasons, change in management, change in strategy and their previous head is charged for financial fraud or something.

To me the motor theories are simply not feasible.

There is plenty of evidence, this is pollyannaish thinking.

 

[dr.eve]

There is plenty of evidence, this is pollyannaish thinking.

Oh I am sure it is possible, yet not a feasible explanation for everything Pogacar does. But hey that's just my opinion and I can be wrong. I believe Pogacar and his team are cheating, but I am unsure about what way, though many possibilities are there.

 

[E_F_]

not a feasible explanation for everything Pogacar does.

It doesn't have to be. He could be doping and using a motor... In fact I see no world where he uses a motor, but isn't also doping.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Oh I am sure it is possible, yet not a feasible explanation for everything Pogacar does. But hey that's just my opinion and I can be wrong. I believe Pogacar and his team are cheating, but I am unsure about what way, though many possibilities are there.

Yeah, I am of the same mind. I don't know what they're doing, but I know they're doing. I do believe Visma used motors. I am convinced Wout used them in 2016, and why not keep using them if they worked, and let everyone else in on the fun?

Also, yes, Lemond is a strange guy, but what he showed Froome doing, defied logic, and I do believe pointed to a motor.

 

[dr.eve]

It doesn't have to be. He could be doping and using a motor... In fact I see no world where he uses a motor, but isn't also doping.

Fair enough

 

[repoman]

A motor is a rather easily discoverable physical object. It would be tangible and inarguable on discovery, that's very different to PEDs. The notion that these are being successfully hidden is pretty ridiculous. Motors are noisy and produce heat, they do check these bikes with portable X-ray and FLIR cameras very often.
I think doping riders rationalize doping with the idea in their head that everyone else is doing it, motors are a completely different area to occupy in the psychological space in terms of motives...it's just not relatable on a large scale IMO and would require a much larger conspiracy than doping with use of things like PEDs (which is more often than not a rider doing it by himself unbeknownst to the team). You can't do that with motors. Extremely discrete and relatively powerful motors (for the size needed to approach the realm of being able to be hidden) beyond what is available on the market would take a massive investment in R n D to produce and implement and you still have them as discoverable physical objects. PEDs are far more difficult to detect and even harder to prove and they are also cheap.

 

[topt]

There is plenty of evidence, this is pollyannaish thinking.

only for people that have ZERO clue how we check bikes

 

[Jumbo Visma Fan :)]

I mean, this is allowed and if you call this posters out you get banned for "harassment"

What do you disagree with their statement? Based on cycling history, I am inclined to agree with them.

 

[topt]

What do you disagree with their statement? Based on cycling history, I am inclined to agree with them.

good for you; we call cyclist crooks based on cycling history; *** the evidence, I know it, he is to good

 

[Jumbo Visma Fan :)]

good for you; we call cyclist crooks based on cycling history; *** the evidence, I know it, he is to good

The evidence suggests that this is physically impossible without some sort of aid.

 

[repoman]

UAE is doing themselves no favors having a literal has been win a 50k solo today

 

[Abedfo]

Wellens having a proper Indian summer to his career. Gianetti a genius

 

[DONCA]

A motor is a rather easily discoverable physical object. It would be tangible and inarguable on discovery, that's very different to PEDs. The notion that these are being successfully hidden is pretty ridiculous. Motors are noisy and produce heat, they do check these bikes with portable X-ray and FLIR cameras very often.
I think doping riders rationalize doping with the idea in their head that everyone else is doing it, motors are a completely different area to occupy in the psychological space in terms of motives...it's just not relatable on a large scale IMO and would require a much larger conspiracy than doping with use of things like PEDs (which is more often than not a rider doing it by himself unbeknownst to the team). You can't do that with motors. Extremely discrete and relatively powerful motors (for the size needed to approach the realm of being able to be hidden) beyond what is available on the market would take a massive investment in R n D to produce and implement and you still have them as discoverable physical objects. PEDs are far more difficult to detect and even harder to prove and they are also cheap.

You are talking about old and cheap technology. The technology is so advanced that it is becoming increasingly difficult to find anything. Modern motors are tiny, subtle, and powerful. One of the inventors said already in the early 2000s that some of his motors are impossible to find. So imagine what could be possible in 2025. Think about what's possible in 2025, especially for teams that own their own bike brand like UAE with Colnago.

To find motors you need someone who really wants to find them. Who is checking for the motors?
The UCI is doing the testing itself, eerily reminiscent of its failed approach to anti-doping in the 1990s. Why isn’t an independent body in charge of scanning for illicit motors? And why does the UCI not let anyone see images of the x-ray scans? It must also be said that the X Ray scans are not carried out often enough. The most frequent checks are still carried out with the tablets. But this type of test is a joke.

Without transparency, it’s impossible to be convinced that the UCI has a grip on the threat.

Does the UCI want to have another scandal? Do they benefit from a Pogacar with a motor in his bike?
No. A new scandal would be the end of cycling. The UCI would destroy its own business. Do you really think that's what they want? Governing bodies are terrified of the fallout. Maybe this is also the reason why only the UCI is in charge of scanning for motors. It´s about control.

Are the UCI's controls sufficient?
The UCI claims that they test at every women’s and men WorldTour race.
But this is not the reality. The UCI’s testing is highly inconsistent.
For example, the world governing body didn’t test a single bike in the 2023 Giro d’Italia’s first two time trials, and at the Vuelta España, the x-ray machine – described as their best weapon against mechanical fraud – wasn’t used until the final week.

Many cycling insiders, from UCI presidents and Tour de France winners to staff members of national governing bodies and mechanics, have indicated, either explicitly or implicitly, that they believe hidden motors have been used at the top level of the sport. These statements should be taken seriously.

Especially at a time when we see performances that simply can no longer be explained.
You only have to take a closer look at Pogacar's abnormal attacks. Be it on the Mur de huy, where he outsprinted his rivals seated and didn't even look tired when he crossed the finish line. Even Cancellara couldn't manage that. Or all the other attacks by him seated where he opened huge gaps in a matter of seconds while the rest was dying out of the saddle. Or that even as a lightweight he can win flat races and keep up with riders like Van der Poel, even though they must have a much higher FTP. You can and should doubt that.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Wellens having a proper Indian summer to his career. Gianetti a genius

Wellens is the new old Evenepoel.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Wellens having a proper Indian summer to his career. Gianetti a genius

It's not enough.
I want to see Politt win on Col de la Loze. Narvaez can have the Champs Elysées stage.

 

[ashhutch1997]

It's not enough.
I want to see Politt win on Col de la Loze. Narvaez can have the Champs Elysées stage.

Nils Polit to channel his inner Eros Poli and win up Mont Ventoux 🔥🔥

 

[SorelyBoy]

[deleted content]

When I comment, I express an opinion and one which I hope is an informed one. I don't attack people personally, but I might express a different opinion to them. When I comment I also give reasons for it. I use my understanding of the sport after 50 years of watching and following it, of what I see with my own eyes, of human nature, of human sporting performance, and also historical precedent. And when I do that and I look at Pogacar and also (and this is a crucial part of the puzzle), his association with Gianetti, I don't believe what I'm seeing is real. If you feel differently, good for you.

 

[ice&fire]

It's even stranger to me that there is a segment who believes that cyclists have no qualms about sticking needles in their arms to gain an advantage, or alter their genes, but wouldn't use an undetectable motor?

You can't blame a contaminated steak, food supplement or a rare illness for the appearance of a motor in your bike.

 

[pelotonIQ]

It's even stranger to me that there is a segment who believes that cyclists have no qualms about sticking needles in their arms to gain an advantage, or alter their genes, but wouldn't use an undetectable motor?

How would you construct an undetectable motor that evades current anti-cheating measures (magnetic, thermal. X-ray and manual inspection)? You could seriously win the nobel prize if such feat is achieved.

 

[peterfin]

How would you construct an undetectable motor that evades current anti-cheating measures (magnetic, thermal. X-ray and manual inspection)? You could seriously win the nobel prize if such feat is achieved.

It's not that difficult. If you have access to the inspection technology you can build something that is not visible as the methods have blind spots. Cheating is difficult with thorough manual inspections unless you know the procedure (and it's not a complete dissassembly) or you can manipulate those that inspect. Regarding the procedure: the UCI has given detailed insights how they do it but obviously a team like UAE will know much more details than we will ever know.

 

[pelotonIQ]

It's not that difficult. If you have access to the inspection technology you can build something that is not visible as the methods have blind spots. Cheating is difficult with thorough manual inspections unless you know the procedure (and it's not a complete dissassembly) or you can manipulate those that inspect. Regarding the procedure: the UCI has given detailed insights how they do it but obviously a team like UAE will know much more details than we will ever know.

Can you explain how? Do you have a theory? I'm curious to know the thought process behind such claims.